Loosing 'push phase' when tired

And forgive me atrocious spelling in the title. Now remedied!

"David Hallsworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As part of our main set last night, we did 7x100m (short course) stroke
count, at as fast a pace as we could maintain and still hold the stroke
number per length.

Now, my stroke rate is pretty pathetic at 18 per 25m, but I held it until
the last 50 of the last two reps. On the 3rd lap, I'd drop a stroke, and

on

Quoted message said:

the last 25m I'd drop up to 3 or 4!!

I felt that as I tired, I completely lost the 'push phase' - I'm not sure

if

Quoted message said:

that's the right terminology, but hopefully you know what I mean. It was
like I wasn't pushing any water - just moving my hand through it - and

like

Quoted message said:

I was taking my hand out early.

To remedy this, is it just a case of getting stronger and fitter, or are
there specific drills and sets that will help me work on this? We do
'brushing thighs' already.

You should be aware that the sensation of fatigue is not necessarily an
indication that the muscle action has deteriorated to the same extent; but
given that, stroke counts are a sign that you are indeed loosing some
distance per stroke. (As an aside, have a look at the point on the pool
floor where you begin your first stroke, to see if a shorter underwater
section is contributing to the higher stroke counts.)

It is also likely that you will loose exactly what you feel you are loosing.
The triceps is the prime mover in that phase, and as it is a two-joint
muscle, fatigue-induced loss of control of both it and the shoulder
fixers/stabilisers can lead to the upper arm being draw up out of the water
rather than the lower arm being extended. If this is the case it is a
muscle fatigue issue, and you will get better through specific wiork on this
action in the near- but pre-fatigue state. A possibility would be to
slightly reduce the effort early in a set/swim, so that you could compensate
at the end of the set/swim and maintain your distance per stroke.

However, if you were doing 7x100 and only fell off on the last two 100's,
that's not bad. It is common, even for very good swimmers, to have the
first length of a training swim be one stroke less that the rest, as you can
easily get a better pushoff distance. Measure your drop from the second
25's count.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, my stroke rate is pretty pathetic at 18 per 25m, <<

Why on earth do you characterize 18 strokes per 25 meters as being
"pathetic!"

You have a longer stroke (lower stroke count) than David Davies, and he
is one of the greatest distance swimmers in the history of competitive
swimming!

Long strokes work well for people with great kicks. Do you have a
great kick? If not, don't be all that concerned about your stroke
count. In fact, you may well find that you will swim faster (which
should be, afterall, the goal) if you stop trying to maintain (or
reduce) your stroke count and instead work on trying to maintain your
stroke rate, even at the expense of RAISING your stroke count!

It is very revealing that you only report what happens to your stroke
count at the end of your set. What happens to your stroke rate? I'll
bet you dollars to donuts (American expression with which jt may not be
familiar) that your stroke rate falls off even more than your stroke
count increases. If that's the case, then that's where your effort
should be directed!

- Larry W

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, my stroke rate is pretty pathetic at 18 per 25m, <<

Why on earth do you characterize 18 strokes per 25 meters as being
"pathetic!"

You have a longer stroke (lower stroke count) than David Davies, and he
is one of the greatest distance swimmers in the history of competitive
swimming!

I think that before you could do such comparison you have to know

a) the average time in which David Hallsworth swam his 100's,

b) the stroke count David Davies would use if he were asked to swim
100m at this time.

Probably Davies takes 18-21 strokes from the wall to the 25m mark when
he is swimming at about 29"/50m. How many strokes do you think he
will take swimming at, say, 35"/50m, 40"/50m? I double your bet
that he takes between 12-15 strokes.

Here you have a practical example.

The swimmer is Stefan Nystrand, a sprinter. In the first clip he is
sprinting. In the second clip we is swimming at a low speed (but I
wonder how many of us can swim at that speed). Count strokes.

http://www.swim.ee/sweden/videos/StrefanNystrand1.mpg

http://www.swim.ee/sweden/videos/StrefanNystrand2.mpg

My point is that is difficult to make comparisons with elite swimmers
stroke count values, because most of us don't swim at the speeds they
do, and we don't know their stroke counts at our speeds. Do you,
Larry?

(Sorry for my English)

Quoted message said:

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Quoted message said:

>Now, my stroke rate is pretty pathetic at 18 per 25m, <<

Why on earth do you characterize 18 strokes per 25 meters as being
"pathetic!"

You have a longer stroke (lower stroke count) than David Davies, and he
is one of the greatest distance swimmers in the history of competitive
swimming!

I think that before you could do such comparison you have to know

a) the average time in which David Hallsworth swam his 100's,

b) the stroke count David Davies would use if he were asked to swim
100m at this time.

Probably Davies takes 18-21 strokes from the wall to the 25m mark when
he is swimming at about 29"/50m. How many strokes do you think he
will take swimming at, say, 35"/50m, 40"/50m? I double your bet
that he takes between 12-15 strokes.

Here you have a practical example.

The swimmer is Stefan Nystrand, a sprinter. In the first clip he is
sprinting. In the second clip we is swimming at a low speed (but I
wonder how many of us can swim at that speed). Count strokes.

http://www.swim.ee/sweden/videos/StrefanNystrand1.mpg

http://www.swim.ee/sweden/videos/StrefanNystrand2.mpg

My point is that is difficult to make comparisons with elite swimmers
stroke count values, because most of us don't swim at the speeds they
do, and we don't know their stroke counts at our speeds. Do you,
Larry?

(Sorry for my English)

Interesting video. Unusual kick pattern.

The most striking thing about the training video versus the sprint is
the marked deacceleration when he's not kicking or stroking. That
proves Larry's point - if you don't kick well, then you should probably
be more concerned with stroke rate than distance per stroke. That's
certainly the case with this swimmer who, unlike great kickers like Ian
Thorpe, does not enjoy that continued momentum in the absence of
stroking by the arms. Hence the super high stroke rate and no glide
when he's going for maximum speed.

Eric

The biggest difference between one of "us" swimming 18 strokes per 25
meters and one of "them" (elites) swimming 18 strokes per 25 meters is
that "their" stroke rate is much higher!

My point is that we have been systematically brainwashed to believe
that stroke length is the be all and end all. Just about every swimmer
on this newsgroup knows his/her stroke count (proportional to stroke
length). I'll bet you dollars to donuts that not a one of you knows
your stroke rate; in this case, what happens to your stroke rate as you
progress through a set. Sure, you could calculate it, if I asked you to
do so, but you don't know it, off the top of your head, the way you
know your stroke count!

I do not think that my comparison of Hallsworth's stroke count and
Davies stroke count were odious. Hallsworth reported his stroke count
during a training set (basically a long distance swim). Of course, in
an all out sprint, Davies kicks hard and his stroke length increases.
But, in a training set which, for Davies, would be the equivilant of
the training set for Hallsworth (for Hallsworth, not for Davies), I'll
bet you that Davies pretty much has the same stroke length for the
(distance) training set as he has for his races. I base this on a lot
of observation of the training sets of elite distance swimmers.

- Larry W

My count was typically less in the first 25, but the reference stroke count
was taken in the drill set on the second 25 of a 50.

So, you're basically saying that it would be better to go easier, maintain
the count and possible swim further?

Thanks.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"David Hallsworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As part of our main set last night, we did 7x100m (short course) stroke
count, at as fast a pace as we could maintain and still hold the stroke
number per length.

Now, my stroke rate is pretty pathetic at 18 per 25m, but I held it until
the last 50 of the last two reps. On the 3rd lap, I'd drop a stroke, and

on

Quoted message said:

the last 25m I'd drop up to 3 or 4!!

I felt that as I tired, I completely lost the 'push phase' - I'm not sure

if

Quoted message said:

that's the right terminology, but hopefully you know what I mean. It was
like I wasn't pushing any water - just moving my hand through it - and

like

Quoted message said:

I was taking my hand out early.

To remedy this, is it just a case of getting stronger and fitter, or are
there specific drills and sets that will help me work on this? We do
'brushing thighs' already.

You should be aware that the sensation of fatigue is not necessarily an
indication that the muscle action has deteriorated to the same extent; but
given that, stroke counts are a sign that you are indeed loosing some
distance per stroke. (As an aside, have a look at the point on the pool
floor where you begin your first stroke, to see if a shorter underwater
section is contributing to the higher stroke counts.)

It is also likely that you will loose exactly what you feel you are
loosing.
The triceps is the prime mover in that phase, and as it is a two-joint
muscle, fatigue-induced loss of control of both it and the shoulder
fixers/stabilisers can lead to the upper arm being draw up out of the
water
rather than the lower arm being extended. If this is the case it is a
muscle fatigue issue, and you will get better through specific wiork on
this
action in the near- but pre-fatigue state. A possibility would be to
slightly reduce the effort early in a set/swim, so that you could
compensate
at the end of the set/swim and maintain your distance per stroke.

However, if you were doing 7x100 and only fell off on the last two 100's,
that's not bad. It is common, even for very good swimmers, to have the
first length of a training swim be one stroke less that the rest, as you
can
easily get a better pushoff distance. Measure your drop from the second
25's count.

"David Hallsworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My count was typically less in the first 25, but the reference stroke

count

Quoted message said:

was taken in the drill set on the second 25 of a 50.

So, you're basically saying that it would be better to go easier, maintain
the count and possible swim further?

Thanks.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

If your goal is maintaining the stroke count, then yes.

It all depends on what you are working on.

Good swimmers realise that there are many, many factors affecting
performance, and that sucess will require the right balance of attention to
each.

An interesting conversation - thanks!

I didn't time that particular set - I was working on set rests, but my
average 100 time is 80-85seconds (in repeated 100s, not all out)

David