Knackered

Tim Hall said:

So what's going on?

The answer's in the subject: you're knackered.

Also sprach Simon Bennett
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Tim Hall said:

So what's going on?

The answer's in the subject: you're knackered.

On Saturday I rode to the off-licence and on Sunday I was much the same as
Tim. These facts may or may not be connected...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
If you want a bicycle, buy a bicycle. If you want something that
folds, buy a deckchair.

"Tim Hall" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On the way home from yesterday's Alan Furley Memorial 200k audax, I
started thinking about being knackered.

Two cases come to mind:

Saturday, Mrs. Hall and I went out on the tandem and cycled up a
short, steep hill. I was on my last legs at the top, pulse through
the roof, couldn't be bothered to speak, that sort of thing. Recovery
was quick enough though.

Sunday I was on the aforementioned audax. The third leg (88km-157km)
was in the heat of the afternoon and hilly. One hill after another,
then another. Or so it seemed. I hadn't drunk enough. Any slight
incline had me reaching for the granny ring. But I couldn't even get
going hard/fast enough to lift my pulse like it was on Saturday.
Recovery took longer (lots of weak squash and flapjack at Faccombe
Hall).

So what's going on?

Different kinds of knackered. The first was probably a sraightforward muscle
lactic acidosis caused by burning up fuel faster that you can supply oxygen
to your muscles, hence the quick recovery. The second was probably fuel
depletion. Your heart wasn't having to work so hard as your muscles were
incapable of working hard enough to stress your heart.

Tim (another one)

Tim Downie said:

Different kinds of knackered. The first was probably a sraightforward
muscle lactic acidosis caused by burning up fuel faster that you can
supply oxygen to your muscles, hence the quick recovery. The second
was probably fuel depletion. Your heart wasn't having to work so
hard as your muscles were incapable of working hard enough to stress
your heart.

So the trick is to balance the two kinds of knackereds? It's easy, this
physiology lark.

dkahn400 said:

[1] All together now: Faccombe Hall, Faccombe Hall, the long and the
short and the tall ...

Looks like I missed out on the Official URC Audax Meet yesterday. I was
at the other end of Hampshire riding the New Forest and Coast 100km.

Not so many hills on that one, but it was still hot.

Mike

Tim Hall said:

So what's going on?

Well if you really want to know...

It's all to do with the body's energy systems - of which there are 3:
1. The ATP-CP System - immediate energy release but good for only 6-9
seconds. Recovery takes about 2-3 minutes (total rest).
2. The Lactate System - good for 45sec of all-out effort, uses glycogen
as a fuel and leads to lactate accumulation in the muscles. Recovery
very dependant upon intensity, activity (active recovery is best) and
refuelling.
3. The Aerobic System - how long have you got? Uses oxygen with
carbohydrate and/or fat to produce the glycogen required to fuel the
muscles. In theory, provided you have enough fuel (oxygen and carbs/fat)
you can do this forever. In reality, you need to stop to refuel at some
point.

This is over-simplistic, and the 3 systems do not operate in isolation.
By reducing the intensity you can increase the Aerobic contribution and
'save' some Lactate and ATP-CP for later. And effective training can
improve the bodies ability to utilise the different energy systems more
effectively, deal with the lactate accumulation, and improve recovery.

In the OP's scenario, the short burst up-hill was probably mostly
lactate fuelled, and a short amount of aerobic pedalling was enough to
at least give the impression of recovery. Another burst up the next hill
would have confirmed whether or not a full recovery had been achieved!
And before you know it you're doing intervals...

A 150km ride is a different scenario altogether. Almost exclusively
Aerobic, if your knackered it's because you ran out of fuel, and you
need to replenish. But, I bet your legs ache too, which suggests your
Lactate system was also pretty exhausted. Best form of recovery for that
is to get back on the bike - but slow.

Now, I bet you're glad you asked...

Ib.

Ib <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Tim Hall said:

So what's going on?

<snip worthy physiology>

Quoted message said:

Now, I bet you're glad you asked...

Yeah right!

Yeah, you're knackered. You've depleted your glycogen reserves which
take a coupla days to refill, sometimes more.

Anaerobic efforts like that hill can sap you of loadsa glucose.

A long Audax will gnaw at the glycogen in your muscles and in your
liver. True bonk is when almost all glycogen has gone.

Glycogen synthetase, which helps you build glycogen is maximal
immediately after exercise, so try getting carbs in ASAP.

Sometimes I found having my dessert *before* my meal helped me get
moving after a break.

If the food queueueueue at a control is long, eat bonk rations whislt
queuing and buy another ration at that stop.

If in doubt, eat.
If the p*nct*re fairy visits, eat before you fix the p****** Your head
will be clearer, your food absorption better and your hands cleaner iffn
you do thing this way round.

If your progress is slower than expected, ask yourself:

Have I had enough to eat?
Have I had enough to drink?
Do I need a loo?
Am I too hot or cold?
Am I short of salt?

and remedy obvious deficits.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Tim Hall said:

On the way home from yesterday's Alan Furley Memorial 200k audax, I
started thinking about being knackered.

Two cases come to mind:

Saturday, Mrs. Hall and I went out on the tandem and cycled up a
short, steep hill. I was on my last legs at the top, pulse through
the roof, couldn't be bothered to speak, that sort of thing. Recovery
was quick enough though.

Sunday I was on the aforementioned audax. The third leg (88km-157km)
was in the heat of the afternoon and hilly. One hill after another,
then another. Or so it seemed. I hadn't drunk enough. Any slight
incline had me reaching for the granny ring. But I couldn't even get
going hard/fast enough to lift my pulse like it was on Saturday.
Recovery took longer (lots of weak squash and flapjack at Faccombe
Hall).

So what's going on?

Tim

1 Missus not pedalling
2 Lock-in at pub Saturday night.

Or that's how it is with me.
--

Martin Bulmer

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Yeah, you're knackered. You've depleted your glycogen reserves which
take a coupla days to refill, sometimes more.

Anaerobic efforts like that hill can sap you of loadsa glucose.

Maybe (although I doubt it, more likely the muscle 'burn' from lactate
accumulation caused the knackered feeling). But anyway, a few minutes
of aerobic pedalling will give the body time to metabolise some more
carbohydrate and replenish your glucose stores. Eating will not speed
up this recovery time.

< snip lots of good stuff on replenishment strategies >

Quoted message said:

If your progress is slower than expected, ask yourself:

Have I had enough to eat?

If you are hungry it's too late, if you are craving sugar, it's way too
late...

Quoted message said:

Have I had enough to drink?

If you are thirsty, it's too late...

Quoted message said:

Do I need a loo?

Check colour...

Quoted message said:

Am I too hot or cold?
Am I short of salt?

Am I really enjoying this!

"buzz_ig" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Yeah, you're knackered. You've depleted your glycogen reserves which
take a coupla days to refill, sometimes more.

Anaerobic efforts like that hill can sap you of loadsa glucose.

Quoted message said:

Maybe (although I doubt it, more likely the muscle 'burn' from lactate
accumulation caused the knackered feeling). But anyway, a few minutes
of aerobic pedalling will give the body time to metabolise some more
carbohydrate and replenish your glucose stores. Eating will not speed
up this recovery time.

I don't think so. AIUI once glucose hase been turned into lactic acid.
the lactic acid is then 'burned' as fuel, not converted back to glucose.
IME it's a rather nice fuel when you're fit...

A few minutes' aerobic pedalling will NOT replenish glucose stores; it
might wash out acidic blood though.

The OP will be unable to achieve his maximum heart rate until his
glucose/glycogen stores are replete, which may take several days.

I have used a HRM on fast commutes[1], slow commutes, when missing
breakfast, Audaxes, touring, dieting etc. Eating certainly made *huge*
differences to my performance.

My fastest commutes were usually on a Friday morning. On Thursday, I
usually had tea with my grandmother and would eat much CAKE. Happy days!
This was when I covered 11,000 miles annually commuting, Audaxing,
touring and otherwise cycling madly; I also had a full-time job and sang
in a choir...

[1] Time trials in all but name

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

I don't think so. AIUI once glucose hase been turned into lactic acid.
the lactic acid is then 'burned' as fuel, not converted back to glucose.
IME it's a rather nice fuel when you're fit...

You are correct, and if I gave the impression lactic acid converted to
glucose then I apologise, I was wrong. Lactic acid is used by the
muscles as fuel, the problem arises when lactic acid production
increases beyond the rate at which the muscles can use it, then it
accumulates and your legs start to ache. You can train your muscles to
(1) continue working efficiently even when lactic acid starts to
accumulate and (2) more effectively flush the excess lactic acid out of
the muscles.

Quoted message said:

A few minutes' aerobic pedalling will NOT replenish glucose stores; it
might wash out acidic blood though.

The OP will be unable to achieve his maximum heart rate until his
glucose/glycogen stores are replete, which may take several days.

But I would argue that for most of us the limit of /lactate/
performance is dictated by the accumulation of lactic acid. Only when
you have a well trained lactic system will lack of glucose be a
problem.

Quoted message said:

I have used a HRM on fast commutes[1], slow commutes, when missing
breakfast, Audaxes, touring, dieting etc. Eating certainly made *huge*
differences to my performance.

But then you are talking about Aerobic Energy. 99% of cycling will be
aerobic, and when aerobic you are converting carbs & fat into energy
'on the fly'. If you skip breakfast then you are lacking in carbs, and
as the body cannot metabolise energy from fat as quickly as from carbs,
then it is unable to function at the same level of performance.

"buzz_ig" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

But I would argue that for most of us the limit of /lactate/
performance is dictated by the accumulation of lactic acid. Only when
you have a well trained lactic system will lack of glucose be a
problem.

Methinks OP's lactate system is probably fairly well-trained.

Sustained exertion can deplete glucose. Audax entails both aerobic and
anaerobic efforts. I seldom had enough carb on board for >90 minutes'
cycling. 90 minutes is a tiny prportion of an Audax day.

Designating one day per week as a 'no cycling day' helps too...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Sustained exertion can deplete glucose. Audax entails both aerobic and
anaerobic efforts. I seldom had enough carb on board for >90 minutes'
cycling. 90 minutes is a tiny prportion of an Audax day.

This thread is acting as some good revision for me, I haven't looked at
this stuff for nearly 2 years! If I understand correctly, Anaerobic does
not mean you are using the Lactate System, it means you are using the
Aerobic System without enough oxygen. The energy is still produced by
metabolising carbs & fat, but the lack of oxygen means Lactate is formed
as a waste product.

This is different from the Lactate system which uses Glycogen and
Glucose stores in the muscle and liver.

I found a reference at:
http://www.coacheseducation.com/phys/EngSys.html
that I think says the same thing in a few hundred more words.

Ib.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

If the p*nct*re fairy visits, eat before you fix the p****** Your head
will be clearer, your food absorption better and your hands cleaner iffn
you do thing this way round.

The first time I saw this I thought it was brilliant advice. Simple and,
with hindsight, obvious.

When Sue punctured about 10km short of our planned lunch stop on Sunday
my first words were "Vecht's Law - eat something!"

Mike K Smith <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

When Sue punctured about 10km short of our planned lunch stop on Sunday
my first words were "Vecht's Law - eat something!"

:-))

Unless the PF visits very frequently, welcome her attentions as an
opportununity for an unscheduled breather...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Unless the PF visits very frequently, welcome her attentions as an
opportununity for an unscheduled breather...

I'll try and remember that in the dark and the rain during the winter.

--chris

Also sprach Helen Deborah Vecht

Quoted message said:

Audax entails both aerobic and anaerobic efforts.

Not the way I do it it doesn't...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Dead journalists make excellent objets d'art.

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Also sprach Helen Deborah Vecht

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Audax entails both aerobic and anaerobic efforts.

Quoted message said:

Not the way I do it it doesn't...

I never could get up a hill without the heavy breathing...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Mike K Smith said:

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

If the p*nct*re fairy visits, eat before you fix the p******
Your head will be clearer, your food absorption better and your
hands cleaner iffn you do thing this way round.

The first time I saw this I thought it was brilliant advice.
Simple and, with hindsight, obvious.

When Sue punctured about 10km short of our planned lunch stop on
Sunday my first words were "Vecht's Law - eat something!"

The rate I've been puncturing this year I'd be stuffed to the gills if
I did that every time. :-)

--
Dave...