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Doping and Lance

Started by [email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) · · Last activity · 71 posts · 1,969 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
24 August 2005
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1 September 2005
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[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal)
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  1. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0824/p04s01-woeu.html

    It seems very unfair (to say the least). For starters, there are about
    a zillion people who didn't suffer Lance's 7 wins with as much
    enthusiasm as we here in the USA. People for whom Lance's symbolism as
    an American Texan was more important than his symbolism of the ultimate
    cancer survivor. This leads to the obvious question as to the degree
    of security enjoyed by the frozen urine specimen over a 6 year period.
    And, for goodness gracious, he's now well into his thirties and he's
    still the class of the peloton and the very idea that he'd risk
    everything he's achieved to gain a 7th (compared to 6th) Tour victory
    is preposterous. He was the most tested rider in this year's Tour.

    There's a "best evidence" principle of law. To me, it's more plausible
    that he wast the victim of lab error or tampering than it is that he'd
    continue competing (and winning) Tour after Tour with continuing
    advances in drug testing technology and still court the catastrophic
    risk of being outed as a drug cheat.

    I love the French. Truly do. The only reason I haven't had a French
    fry in the past 30 years or so is because of health concerns, not out
    of any disaffection for the country that made Washington's victory in
    the Revolutionary War possible. But I am positively outraged at,
    first, the basic unfairness of the story itself, and, secondly, at the
    fact that the Director of the Tour has already been quoted as
    essentially saying that Lance's guilt is a matter of fact. Just
    outraged.

    - Larry W

  2. (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0824/p04s01-woeu.html

    It seems very unfair (to say the least). For starters, there are about
    a zillion people who didn't suffer Lance's 7 wins with as much
    enthusiasm as we here in the USA. People for whom Lance's symbolism as
    an American Texan was more important than his symbolism of the ultimate
    cancer survivor. This leads to the obvious question as to the degree
    of security enjoyed by the frozen urine specimen over a 6 year period.
    And, for goodness gracious, he's now well into his thirties and he's
    still the class of the peloton and the very idea that he'd risk
    everything he's achieved to gain a 7th (compared to 6th) Tour victory
    is preposterous. He was the most tested rider in this year's Tour.

    There's a "best evidence" principle of law. To me, it's more plausible
    that he wast the victim of lab error or tampering than it is that he'd
    continue competing (and winning) Tour after Tour with continuing
    advances in drug testing technology and still court the catastrophic
    risk of being outed as a drug cheat.

    I love the French. Truly do. The only reason I haven't had a French
    fry in the past 30 years or so is because of health concerns, not out
    of any disaffection for the country that made Washington's victory in
    the Revolutionary War possible. But I am positively outraged at,
    first, the basic unfairness of the story itself, and, secondly, at the
    fact that the Director of the Tour has already been quoted as
    essentially saying that Lance's guilt is a matter of fact. Just
    outraged.

    - Larry W

    Don't you think you're on the wrong newsgroup?
    This has been thrashed to death on the cycling newsgroups, recycling it
    here won't convert anyone.

  3. Zoom said:

    Don't you think you're on the wrong
    newsgroup?

    Discussing Lance seems to be acceptable
    here, perhaps because he's a former
    swimmer, thus a potential triathlete.

  4. "Zoom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0824/p04s01-woeu.html

    It seems very unfair (to say the least). For starters, there are about

    [ O.T. stuff snipped ]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    outraged.

    - Larry W

    Don't you think you're on the wrong newsgroup?
    This has been thrashed to death on the cycling newsgroups, recycling it
    here won't convert anyone.

    Larry is a United States citizen. It's possible he subscribes to the
    following sentiment:

    ">...it was off-topic. Your reasons do not trump the newsgroup charter.

    Our constitution guarrantees [sic] the right of free speech. "

  5. jtaylor said:

    "Zoom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    Larry is a United States citizen. It's possible he subscribes to the
    following sentiment:

    ">...it was off-topic. Your reasons do not trump the newsgroup charter.

    Our constitution guarrantees [sic] the right of free speech. "

    So, we are going to start talking about politics now? One OT message
    can cause an endless chain of posts. I say OT posts are great. They
    provoke these endless heated discussions.

    Andres

  6. I think that my post was appropriate in the broad context of Doping in
    Sport. The point was to raise the issue of when it's appropriate to
    raise an accusation and when it isn't. When an athlete with a long,
    undistinguished career suddenly comes out of nowhere to win 3 gold
    medals (e.g. Michelle Smith), I think it's appropriate to raise the
    issue. In the Armstrong situation, I argued that it wasn't
    appropriate. The title of my post made clear the subject matter and was
    easily avoided. Finally, I think that the current volume of posts to
    rec.sport.swimming is rather anemic, and I don't think that I was
    exacerbating some sort of clutter problem.

    I like discussing things like this with people I know. I know the
    people on this newsgroup. I don't know anyone on cycling newsgroups.
    It's just a personal preference/comfort level sort of thing.

    I think that jtaylor's post was inappropriate. He presented a quote
    (complete with a "[sic]"😉 and follow-up remark in a way in which it
    implied that the direct quote may have been mine (why else put it in
    quotes without attributing the quote to the person who actually
    originated it?) and follow-up remark were representative of my views.
    The quote was not mine and I reject the sentiments attributed by
    jtaylor to me. I demand no special Usenet privileges by virtue of my
    nationality.

    - Larry W

  7. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    He presented a quote
    (complete with a "[sic]"😉 and follow-up remark in a way in which it
    implied that the direct quote may have been mine (why else put it in
    quotes without attributing the quote to the person who actually
    originated it?) and follow-up remark were representative of my views.

    You misundersand the purpose of "[sic]". It is to indicate that the
    mis-spelling was present in the original post.

    Attribution is a bit of an issue as the poster was likely one of Martin W.
    Smith's sock puppets, but as they are up into double figures now, who can
    tell?

    Quoted message said:

    The quote was not mine and I reject the sentiments attributed by
    jtaylor to me.

    They were not attributed - if you re-read the post you'll see that this was
    only given as a possibility.

    Quoted message said:

    I demand no special Usenet privileges by virtue of my
    nationality.

    Good; I was worried about you, as you are so easily drawn into political
    discussions on r.s.s.

  8. In article <[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca>,

    jtaylor said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    He presented a quote
    (complete with a "[sic]"😉 and follow-up remark in a way in which it
    implied that the direct quote may have been mine (why else put it in
    quotes without attributing the quote to the person who actually
    originated it?) and follow-up remark were representative of my views.

    You misundersand the purpose of "[sic]". It is to indicate that the
    mis-spelling was present in the original post.

    Attribution is a bit of an issue as the poster was likely one of Martin W.
    Smith's sock puppets, but as they are up into double figures now, who can
    tell?

    What issue? By not including the attribution [sic itur ad astra], you
    gave the impression Larry may have written the quote. What is the issue?
    Why didn't you attribute the quote? There were two quotes, actually, by
    two different posters. You didn't attribute either one. Which one were
    you slinging at Larry?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The quote was not mine and I reject the sentiments attributed by
    jtaylor to me.

    They were not attributed - if you re-read the post you'll see that this was
    only given as a possibility.

    ....one that was both off topic and meant to draw an off topic response.
    A troll. Don't misunderstand the purpose of the "[sic itur ad astra]".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I demand no special Usenet privileges by virtue of my
    nationality.

    Good; I was worried about you, as you are so easily drawn into political
    discussions on r.s.s.

    Posting off topic isn't a privilege. Anybody can do it.

  9. jtaylor said:

    You misundersand (sic) the purpose of
    "[sic]".

    :-)

  10. "Man o' Tea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    jtaylor said:

    You misundersand (sic) the purpose of
    "[sic]".

    :-)

    I was wondering who'd be the firt to spot the deliberate...

  11. jtaylor said:

    I was wondering who'd be the firt to
    spot the deliberate...

    But many that are firt sall be lat;
    and the lat sall be firt.

  12. Just wondering what EPO is and why it is illegal. If my blood had a
    better ability to carry oxygen, I could swim faster. I was also
    wondering if being slightly anaemic interfers with breathing when
    swimming. It is unfair for the French to bring up the contents of
    Lance's urine in such an unofficial manner. Either its true or not; if
    not, he should sue them.

    (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0824/p04s01-woeu.html

    It seems very unfair (to say the least). For starters, there are about
    a zillion people who didn't suffer Lance's 7 wins with as much
    enthusiasm as we here in the USA. People for whom Lance's symbolism as
    an American Texan was more important than his symbolism of the ultimate
    cancer survivor. This leads to the obvious question as to the degree
    of security enjoyed by the frozen urine specimen over a 6 year period.
    And, for goodness gracious, he's now well into his thirties and he's
    still the class of the peloton and the very idea that he'd risk
    everything he's achieved to gain a 7th (compared to 6th) Tour victory
    is preposterous. He was the most tested rider in this year's Tour.

    There's a "best evidence" principle of law. To me, it's more plausible
    that he wast the victim of lab error or tampering than it is that he'd
    continue competing (and winning) Tour after Tour with continuing
    advances in drug testing technology and still court the catastrophic
    risk of being outed as a drug cheat.

    I love the French. Truly do. The only reason I haven't had a French
    fry in the past 30 years or so is because of health concerns, not out
    of any disaffection for the country that made Washington's victory in
    the Revolutionary War possible. But I am positively outraged at,
    first, the basic unfairness of the story itself, and, secondly, at the
    fact that the Director of the Tour has already been quoted as
    essentially saying that Lance's guilt is a matter of fact. Just
    outraged.

    - Larry W

  13. "cardarch" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Just wondering what EPO is and why it is illegal. If my blood had a
    better ability to carry oxygen, I could swim faster. I was also
    wondering if being slightly anaemic interfers with breathing when
    swimming. It is unfair for the French to bring up the contents of
    Lance's urine in such an unofficial manner. Either its true or not; if
    not, he should sue them.

    EPO is doping.

    And it's not "the french". Its investigation, it's a newspaper: "l'Equipe".
    And I'm quite sure they are serious, and that it is true.
    Interesting battle to come. We know that Lance will not hesitate to sue a
    paper...

    -- Olivier

  14. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But now, with these new evidences, I believe that there is a 99% probability


    that Lance was doped (at least in 99). <<

    What you are saying is that (1) there is a 99% probability that, in a 6
    year period, there was 100% certainty that a single urine specimen from
    an athlete who had as many detractors as admirers in the country in
    which the specimen was stored was 100% protected from sabotage and
    there was 99% certainty of lack of laboratory error and 99.9%
    specificity of the test in question (which there is NOT!), as it would
    take a test 99.9% specific to produce a result which is 99% accurate,
    based on Bayes' Theorem (I'm guessing that you know enough statistics
    to understand my argument here).

    I've worked in many laboratories, with many research freezers. I am
    certain that the laboratory in question has had to store perhaps
    100,000 specimens; perhaps more. They probably have well secured
    "doping control" freezers and much less well secured research and
    general storage freezers. Since the year 2000, there have been
    numerous positive tests, providing specimens from which to obtain
    "positive" materials for spiking other specimens. I am confident that
    the lab in question was quite conscientious about protecting specimens
    from outside contamination in a period relevant to the testing in their
    "doping control" freezers. But how can we be 99% confident that a "B"
    specimen from 1999 received 99% effective protection over the years,
    beyond the time frame where it would have been of relevance?

    The fact that someone as fair as Olivier would be immediately moved to
    consider Lance "guilty" shows just how reprehensible this was (to
    publish such a story).

    Beyond sabotage, there's more than a 1% chance of some sort of systemic
    lab screw up. And no chance that the EPO test is 99.9% specific.

    The accepted standard of "guilt" is to have a specimen taken into
    "protective" custody, tested _immediately_ and then, if the test is
    "positive," to have the test confirmed with the second specimen. And,
    all the while, to have the specimens protected from tampering. There
    is a reason for these safeguards and that is because (1) there is a
    very real risk of tampering and (2) there is a very real risk of
    laboratory error.

    The Armstrong case deviates so severely from the established standards
    that it is completely reprehensible to use these findings to smear the
    reputation and tarnish the achievements of someone who has no
    possibility of defending himself.

    I find particularly nauseating the comments of people to the effect
    that "Lance needs to come forward and explain himself." What is there
    to "explain?" What can he "explain?"

    This is simply the most unfair doping allegation I've ever heard.

    Look again. We aren't talking about a single Tour, in 1999. We are
    talking about 7 in a row, during which time he became the most
    scrutinized athlete in history. Look at what he did this year. Does
    anyone seriously believe that he'd risk doping himself to win a 7th
    Tour, instead of just retiring at 6? And if he won this year's Tour,
    in such a dominating fashion, well into his thirties, at an age where
    no one had ever previoiusly won a Tour, then why is it so hard to
    believe that he won cleanly 7 years ago...and in each year since?

    Is it more than 1% plausible that someone dumped a few drops of
    contaminated urine into a single urine specimen stored in a research
    freezer (not in a continuously guarded doping control freezer) during a
    6 year period?

    Of course it is more than 1% probable that this happened.

    Way more than 1% probable.

    Sufficiently more than 1% probable that it's simply outrageous to make
    such accusations at this time.

    - Larry W

  15. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    - some testimony (O'Reilly, Greg Lemond... see LA Confidential) <<

    The O'Reilly claims are simply not credible. Armstrong is perhaps THE
    most careful, focused athlete of our time. He well knew that he was
    under a doping microscope. The idea that he'd instruct someone who was
    barely an aquaintance to dispose of doping paraphenalia, instead of
    carefully doing so himself, has no credibility whatsoever.

    Is it credible that Armstrong could have used EPO in 1999? Certainly.
    It's credible that any world class athlete in any endurance sport in
    1999 _could_ have used EPO. Is it fair to _accuse_ Armstrong --
    specifically -- of doping with EPO in 1999, based on laboratory tests
    which come nowhere near meeting the well-established protocols for
    doping control tests? (in addition to everything I've argued before,
    these specimens were tested for RESEARCH purposes, with the stipulation
    that they could NOT be used for post-facto doping control purposes,
    precisely because they could not meet established doping control
    protocol standards).

    Is there any measure of fairness whatsoever in making these
    accusations...stated with such certainty...with Tour organizers and
    others now demanding that Armstrong "explain himself"... ?

    In my mind -- none.

    It's absolutely outrageous.

    I've argued before that Sport is doomed to lose everthing about it
    which makes it a source of compelling inspiration. The case of Lance
    Armstrong offers strong support for this depressing conclusion.

    - Larry W

  16. (...now I'm really working myself up into a hot and bothered lather...)

    The other thing that I find outrageous is the statement that "Lance
    always said that he'd never failed a drug test; -- well, now he has."

    No HE HASN'T. Failing a drug test means that you produce two
    specimens, both of which are closely guarded. One is tested
    _immediately_. The other is stored, under lock and key, as a backup to
    confirm a positive test.

    Failing a drug test doesn't mean that someone pulls your specimens out
    of long term storage, years after the fact, and tests them in a
    research study. Particularly when the athlete in question has been the
    world's number one most accused doping target over a period of many
    years, in a setting where numerous people have had the means,
    opportunity, and motive to tamper with said athlete's specimens.

    So it remains a true statement that Lance has never failed a drug test.

    - Larry W

  17. Canadian lab dismisses claims Armstrong took EPO

    AFP
    Thursday, August 25, 2005

    MONTREAL (AFP) - Claims by a French newspaper that seven-time Tour de
    France winner Lance Armstrong had taken EPO were attacked as unsound
    and unethical by the director of the Canadian laboratory whose tests
    saw Olympic drug cheat Ben Johnson hit with a lifetime ban.

    L'Equipe on Tuesday carried a front page story headlined "Armstrong's
    Lie" suggesting the Texan had used the illegal blood booster EPO
    (erythropoeitin) during his first Tour win in 1999.

    The sports daily based its accusation on tests carried out by a French
    laboratory on frozen urine samples taken during the race six years ago.

    Armstrong issued an immediate denial and yesterday L'Equipe's story
    came under fire from Christiane Ayotte, a director at Canada's National
    Research Institute.

    "The stablity of EPO in urine isn't as long as five years according to
    our testing here in Montreal. It's more a matter of months," stressed
    Ayotte, whose testing centre is accredited to WADA, the world's
    anti-doping agency.

    Ayotte though was quick not to cast doubts on the testing procedures of
    the French laboratory cited in the L'Equipe report, but she believes
    the paper's use of this as evidence is unethical.

    "It's here that I question the context of the research. Testing must be
    carried out on true anonymous samples in a way that you can't link the
    athlete to the findings."

    In such a case she argued you had to have the possibility of carrying
    out a second B Sample test to verify the result.

  18. Re: Lack of 99.9% specificity of EPO tests:

    http://www.itn.co.uk/news/757935.html

    "Questions have been raised about the reliability of EPO tests as they
    have returned some false positives"

  19. (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    (...now I'm really working myself up into a hot and bothered lather...)

    The other thing that I find outrageous is the statement that "Lance
    always said that he'd never failed a drug test; -- well, now he has."

    This would all go away if we removed the rules against doping and
    stopped doing the drug tests.

  20. <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But now, with these new evidences, I believe that there is a 99%
    probability


    that Lance was doped (at least in 99). <<

    What you are saying is that (1) there is a 99% probability that, in a 6
    year period, there was 100% certainty that a single urine specimen

    There is not "a single urine specimen".
    There are 6 urine specimen, all with EPO.

    And the LNDD lab is very serious. They do testing for the Olympics, and are
    accredited by the WADA. See:
    http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory_id=160

    Hence the 99% probability.

    And I can tell you that the lab and L'Equipe wouldn't have made such claim
    without very serious evidence. They perfectly know that LA will sue them if
    there is any doubt, and that he can pay for the best lawyers.

    -- Olivier

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