OTB Help

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a lot.
I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for the flat
low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been giving me
problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself flying
over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every combination
of things I could think of including: Shorter stems, longer stems,
setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork, less air in
shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the seatpost. I
even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top portion of red
warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off the ground on the
tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider in my group, but I
don't think that should have any bearing on it. The RX has 3.5" of
travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is recommended), so it's even
raked out more than it's supposed to be. I don't have this problem with
my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs) are
grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

You're sure it's not just technique? That's what I usually blame by OTB
experiences on.

Did it help when you had your stomach on the seat? I've never gone OTB
from that position. Of course it's an extreme situation that would call
for it, but when the terrain calls for it I'm glad I know that trick.

Matt

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for
the flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been
giving me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself
flying over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork,
less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider
in my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The RX
has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I
don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something that
is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

MattB said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for the
flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been giving
me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself flying
over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork, less
air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider in
my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The
RX has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I
don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

You're sure it's not just technique? That's what I usually blame by OTB
experiences on.

Did it help when you had your stomach on the seat? I've never gone OTB
from that position. Of course it's an extreme situation that would call
for it, but when the terrain calls for it I'm glad I know that trick.

Matt

The trail was steep, but not enough that I should have been that far
back. Of course, technique and fatigue could play a part. After all it
was after all the climbing was out of the way (more that I normally do).
I would chalk it up to technique if it happened all the time, but it
seem to be on drops that are more than 6". The bike just doesn't feel
right. On trails I know, I could just launch with the nose up but
that's not possible sometimes when riding a new trail for the first
time. With the longer travel bike I would just roll over it and not
even think twice. With the RX I know I have to stay back and I do.

Could it be my weight? Maybe I'll have to start drinking beer again 🙂.

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

small change said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something that
is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Granted, I am not a world class rider. However, the one thing I have
tried to learn more than anything else is how to stay safe (at least for
the family's sake). I don't think it should take any less skill when
using a longer travel bike, should it? Yes, I endo and most people do.
I don't think I do it more than others, but on the Racer-X the back is
a bit squirrely on the technical trails. If skill were the factor and
not the bike, it would happen anywhere and with any bike I rider. No?

It feels like the normal riding the position on the Racer-X is forward
more than on other bikes. I suppose it should be since it's designed to
be an XC race bike and excels in cornering on tight twisties. But that
should not stop it from handling the rougher terrain. If I can do it on
a hardtail SS, I should be able to do it on a fully.

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

"small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for
the flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been
giving me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself
flying over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork,
less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider
in my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The RX
has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I
don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something
that is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Now I ride a hardtail or a fully rigid exclusively, and on terrain quite
similar or identical to where you discovered the problem.

Sounds like you've ruled out the most obvious causes, ie, high center of
gravity, (includes body position, seat height, etc) too much front brake,
(panic responses, etc.), so it sounds like it might be a rear-shock rebound
problem, ie, is it somehow catapulting you upwards and forward? Or is your
front shock bottoming out so the front wheel doesn't roll you forward when
it's spozed to?

Just some thoughts. You might ask Geedub, who brought his Switchblade to
Sun Valley, and I followed him down some descents at pretty high speed. No
problems to report. He might have some insight even though the geometry and
suspension is a little diff from your RX.

CDB

small change said:

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo
something that is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Mostly true, but bikes like the vaunted KLEIN MANTRA weren't called "stink
bugs" for nut 'n honey.

(My first bike came with a Manitou Mach 5 rubber bumper shock that was later
recalled; friggin' death trap I tells ya.)

Bill "endo and out" S.

Paladin said:

"small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ride-A-Lot wrote:
But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something
that is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Now I ride a hardtail or a fully rigid exclusively, and on terrain quite
similar or identical to where you discovered the problem.

That's gotta hurt your bum!

Quoted message said:

Sounds like you've ruled out the most obvious causes, ie, high center of
gravity, (includes body position, seat height, etc) too much front brake,
(panic responses, etc.), so it sounds like it might be a rear-shock rebound
problem, ie, is it somehow catapulting you upwards and forward? Or is your
front shock bottoming out so the front wheel doesn't roll you forward when
it's spozed to?

Just some thoughts. You might ask Geedub, who brought his Switchblade to
Sun Valley, and I followed him down some descents at pretty high speed. No
problems to report. He might have some insight even though the geometry and
suspension is a little diff from your RX.

CDB

I keep the front pretty stiff so there's no bottoming out problem there.
The rear I had to pump up a bit because it was bottoming out, but I
don't think I played with the rebound. That could be it. Thanks.

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

"small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for
the flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been
giving me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself
flying over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork,
less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider
in my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The

RX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I
don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something

that

Quoted message said:

is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Can't comment on the skill issue but some geometries are definitely more
endo prone.

Greg

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

small change said:

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo
something that is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Mostly true, but bikes like the vaunted KLEIN MANTRA weren't called "stink
bugs" for nut 'n honey.

(My first bike came with a Manitou Mach 5 rubber bumper shock that was
later recalled; friggin' death trap I tells ya.)

Bill "endo and out" S.

That's what I was kinda theenkin, a steenkin shock problem.

CDB

Ride-A-Lot said:

MattB said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for
the flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been
giving me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself
flying over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork,
less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider
in my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it.
The RX has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be.
I don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

You're sure it's not just technique? That's what I usually blame by
OTB experiences on.

Did it help when you had your stomach on the seat? I've never gone OTB
from that position. Of course it's an extreme situation that would
call for it, but when the terrain calls for it I'm glad I know that
trick.

Matt

The trail was steep, but not enough that I should have been that far
back. Of course, technique and fatigue could play a part. After all it
was after all the climbing was out of the way (more that I normally do).
I would chalk it up to technique if it happened all the time, but it
seem to be on drops that are more than 6". The bike just doesn't feel
right. On trails I know, I could just launch with the nose up but
that's not possible sometimes when riding a new trail for the first
time. With the longer travel bike I would just roll over it and not
even think twice. With the RX I know I have to stay back and I do.

Could it be my weight? Maybe I'll have to start drinking beer again 🙂.

Yeah, maybe. I'm 150, so those extra 10 beer pounds must be the difference!

Of course I'm not on a RX either, but you may as well start with the
beer anyway.

Matt (actually that rear rebound idea may be the one, that and XC race
bikes are probably more likely to endo than others)

G.T. said:

"small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a
lot. I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for
the flat low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been
giving me problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself
flying over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every
combination of things I could think of including: Shorter stems,
longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork,
less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the
seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top
portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider
in my group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The

RX

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has 3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is
recommended), so it's even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I
don't have this problem with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs)
are grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

But what if it is a skill issue? I've always considered endo something

that

Quoted message said:

is affected more by the rider, than the bike...

Can't comment on the skill issue but some geometries are definitely more
endo prone.

Greg

The RX geometry is a "race" geometry. You may have been better off
with a RX100 frame to begin with. However...I have a bicycle with
"race" type geometry and can ride it anywhere I ride my singlespeed (it
also has a rigid fork) with little to no adjustment in my riding style.
I need only get further behind the saddle from time to time in steep
and technical terrain.

JD

It sounds like your prob. is part technique and part geometry. I had a
Klein Race a while back and it was great when I lived in MN. However,
I moved to WA state and the riding was much more technical with drops
and steeps. I put a short elavated stem and wide bars on the bike. It
helped a little, but the bike itself was still prone to send me OTB due
to the geometry. To compensate, I have to ride way back and wheelie
drop everything.

Needless to say, I soon dumped the Klein. I started small and went
with a Specialized P3 just for a change in gwometry. That made a huge
difference. I know have a Bullit with a Super T. When I go OTB on
that, there is usually a serious issue going on. Usually I didn't roll
or drop something with enough speed and it causes me to lock the front
wheel up. Speaking of which, speed is your friend when it comes to OTB
situations.

Technique is what makes riders better than one another, but having a
range of mountain bikes, a forgiving frame design and lots of front
travel can save your a$$.

Colin

Ride-A-Lot said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn
things the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a lot.
I've been making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for the flat
low-tech trails in my hood. However, out west it's been giving me
problems. On the more technical trails, I find myself flying
over-the-bars more than I would like to. I have tried every combination
of things I could think of including: Shorter stems, longer stems,
setback post, regular post, more air in shock/fork, less air in
shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and lowering the seatpost. I
even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the top portion of red
warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off the ground on the
tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider in my group, but I
don't think that should have any bearing on it. The RX has 3.5" of
travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is recommended), so it's even
raked out more than it's supposed to be. I don't have this problem with
my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs) are
grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking.
Anything else I should look at, besides skill?

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

Old5chool said:

Technique is what makes riders better than one another, but having a
range of mountain bikes, a forgiving frame design and lots of front
travel can save your a$$.

Agreed, which is why I usually ride the Ellsworth Id on technical
trails. Much more forgiving!

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

I had the same problem when I had my medium frame Pro-flex. I cured
the problem by going to a large frame Pro-flex, then when some slime
bag stole that I got a large frame sb with short higher rise stem and
low rise bars. Even with the sb I still get the back wheel off the
ground once in a while. Then I'm sporting close to 200 lbs.........and
it hurts a lot when otb happens so I tend not to put myself into that
situation. Mitch can tell you I almost endowed in Vail though!

Gary

I had the same problem for a long time - couldn't figure it out.

Eventually I realised that I was actually dragging the rear brake a little
even when I thought I'd released it fully, causing the front to dip as soon
as it went over a drop.

Just a thought...

Andy

"Ride-A-Lot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I usually don't ask for help because I am stubborn and like to learn things
the hard way. Well, I tried the hard way and it hurts... a lot. I've been
making the Racer-X my main ride and it's great for the flat low-tech trails
in my hood. However, out west it's been giving me problems. On the more
technical trails, I find myself flying over-the-bars more than I would like
to. I have tried every combination of things I could think of including:
Shorter stems, longer stems, setback post, regular post, more air in
shock/fork, less air in shock/fork, more rebound, less rebound, and
lowering the seatpost. I even tried riding the seat with my stomach on the
top portion of red warrior in Idaho. Still, I feel the back lifting off
the ground on the tech spots. I'm 140# now, and the lightest rider in my
group, but I don't think that should have any bearing on it. The RX has
3.5" of travel and I use a 100mm fork in front (80 is recommended), so it's
even raked out more than it's supposed to be. I don't have this problem
with my ID (6"😉 or even my SS.

The only other thing I can think of it that the brakes (avid mechs) are
grabbing to fast in the front, but I am careful about my braking. Anything
else I should look at, besides skill?

--
o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
www.schnauzers.ws

"Andy Sandford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had the same problem for a long time - couldn't figure it out.

Eventually I realised that I was actually dragging the rear brake a little
even when I thought I'd released it fully, causing the front to dip as

soon

Quoted message said:

as it went over a drop.

Yep, I see that all the time. If the trail isn't too steep but has a lot of
drops it's better to just keep your fingers wrapped around the grips, no
brakes.

Greg

G.T. said:

"Andy Sandford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had the same problem for a long time - couldn't figure it out.

Eventually I realised that I was actually dragging the rear brake a little
even when I thought I'd released it fully, causing the front to dip as

soon

Quoted message said:

as it went over a drop.

Yep, I see that all the time. If the trail isn't too steep but has a lot of
drops it's better to just keep your fingers wrapped around the grips, no
brakes.

Greg

Exactly.

Actually, the more I think about it, the steeper it is, the less you
should use the brakes. Kill whatever speed you need to before the tech
sections and just let her roll, feather the rear if need be.
--
Slack

"Slack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

"Andy Sandford" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I had the same problem for a long time - couldn't figure it out.

Eventually I realised that I was actually dragging the rear brake a

little

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

even when I thought I'd released it fully, causing the front to dip as

soon

Quoted message said:

as it went over a drop.

Yep, I see that all the time. If the trail isn't too steep but has a

lot of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drops it's better to just keep your fingers wrapped around the grips, no
brakes.

Greg

Exactly.

Actually, the more I think about it, the steeper it is, the less you
should use the brakes. Kill whatever speed you need to before the tech
sections and just let her roll, feather the rear if need be.

True enough but the thing is people think they're feathering their rear when
they're actually hitting it way too much. Hence, my drills for keeping my
fingers completely off the rear brake lever in some situations, especially
on relatively flat downhill sections with a number of 12-18" dropoffs.

Greg

Quoted message said:

It sounds like your prob. is part technique and part geometry.

More concurrance from a lurker. Swapping bikes is fun - but prolly not
going to happen so I'll comment on the technique - not knowing how much
and how often you get behind the saddle. I'd suggest becoming more and
more familiar with that move. I personally use it on drops 8" and
greater. Makes me feel in control dropping the bike down easy. I
probably use it too much and could go faster down technical descents.
But better to be slow and not OTB (IMHO).

Also 1" rocks, after a step down, make great OTB causes (if you're
behind the saddle your front end will be less weighted helping you
bounce/roll over said obstacle). If you're getting lazy and barely
getting behind your saddle those same 1" rocks will cause a rude
meeting between your junk and your saddle.