ANOTHER IM training question

I think you are on the right track. Increase your distance, especially on
the bike. I find that extremely long hours on the bike, I.E., 8 hours for
150 mile rides, and shorter run training get me through fine and I have
several years on you Eric though only 165 when race ready.

Ken

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
training regiments.
Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
run).
I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
6'1" and 185 lbs.
I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
somewhere).
I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).

Thanks for any input, Eric

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

IMKen said:

I think you are on the right track. Increase your distance, especially on
the bike. I find that extremely long hours on the bike, I.E., 8 hours for
150 mile rides, and shorter run training get me through fine and I have
several years on you Eric though only 165 when race ready.

Ken

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
training regiments.
Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
run).
I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
6'1" and 185 lbs.
I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
somewhere).
I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).

Thanks for any input, Eric

Hey Eric,

Have you thought about water running?

The a while back a womans cross country champ had a leg injury that
prevented her from running - her coach got her into the pool ( diving pool
so it was deep water) , using a water running belt, she literally "ran" in
the water. After time weight were added to make her have to work harder.

When it came time for the cross country champs, she was as fit as if she had
been doing 90+km's a week off road, came out raced, and won

....... worth a thought

Regards,
Martin.

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
training regiments.
Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
run).
I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
6'1" and 185 lbs.
I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
somewhere).
I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).

Thanks for any input, Eric

Regarding your aero position on the bike, if you haven't done this,
bring your seat as far forward as possible, rise your saddle height and
lower your bars. That way, your angle between the hamstring and your
lower back will remain the same as when you sit more upright. It is as
if you were sitting upright and lifting the rear wheel of the bike. You
are not changing your position, but you are still becoming more
aerodynamic. Also, work towards bringing your arms as close together as
possible even if you are sitting upright. You will still be able to
create an aero position w/o putting strain on your back.

When I rode aerodynamic in a more traditional position, I would get
back pain within 40 miles. Since moving my saddle forward, I have been
pain free. I can lay on my bars for the entire day and it is really
confy.

Andres

Eric said:

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

IMKen said:

I think you are on the right track. Increase your distance, especially on
the bike. I find that extremely long hours on the bike, I.E., 8 hours for
150 mile rides, and shorter run training get me through fine and I have
several years on you Eric though only 165 when race ready.

Ken

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
training regiments.
Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
run).
I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
6'1" and 185 lbs.
I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
somewhere).
I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).

Thanks for any input, Eric

Eric,

Andres' advice made me cringe. If your bike has been fitted and adjusted by
a good bike shop, I wouldn't screw with it as much as he suggests. OTOH, if
it wasn't fitted and adjusted by a good bike shop, you should consider
having that done.

A lot of pains and discomfort can be relieved by a properly fitted bike.
This is especially critical if you have a documented back injury like yours
and you're planning 100 mile training rides.

Go get fitted, it'll be the best $50 you ever spent. If you aggravate your
back experimenting with some self-diagnosed aggressive bike position you
might kill your chances of finishing an IM on day one.

John

On 8/21/05 8:00 AM, in article, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Regarding your aero position on the bike, if you haven't done this,
bring your seat as far forward as possible, rise your saddle height and
lower your bars. That way, your angle between the hamstring and your
lower back will remain the same as when you sit more upright. It is as
if you were sitting upright and lifting the rear wheel of the bike. You
are not changing your position, but you are still becoming more
aerodynamic. Also, work towards bringing your arms as close together as
possible even if you are sitting upright. You will still be able to
create an aero position w/o putting strain on your back.

When I rode aerodynamic in a more traditional position, I would get
back pain within 40 miles. Since moving my saddle forward, I have been
pain free. I can lay on my bars for the entire day and it is really
confy.

Andres

Eric said:

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

IMKen said:

I think you are on the right track. Increase your distance, especially on
the bike. I find that extremely long hours on the bike, I.E., 8 hours for
150 mile rides, and shorter run training get me through fine and I have
several years on you Eric though only 165 when race ready.

Ken

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
> input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
> details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
> the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
> training regiments.
> Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
> years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
> is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
> 1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
> run).
> I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
> 6'1" and 185 lbs.
> I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
> is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
> keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
> reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
> okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
> My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
> year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
> general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
> long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
> somewhere).
> I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
> is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
> (and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).
>
> Thanks for any input, Eric

John Hardt <[email hidden]> wrote in news:BF2DEA9A.9C58%
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Andres' advice made me cringe.

Ditto. Very difficult to give this type of advice over the net,
particularly when you don't know how the bikle was set up BEFORE you start
throwing random directions on adjustment out.

I appreciate the input. I could have been more descriptive but hesitated
because I didn't want a mile-long posting. I bought my current bike, my
second Serotta, custom fitted and built: made a world of improvement in
pain level so I ain't about to change that for nuthin'
My first Serotta was a Fierte, their off-the-rack model. It was a big
improvement over my old Cannondale that had been fitted and adjusted as
well as possible by my bike shop. The Fierte was a big improvement, and
the second one, a Colorado III was like heaven. Although the custom
measurements were only 1 to 2 cm different in most places from the
Fierte, that little bit allowed me to ride almost pain free (something
I'd been chasing for 20 years).
Eric

John Hardt said:

Eric,

Andres' advice made me cringe. If your bike has been fitted and adjusted by
a good bike shop, I wouldn't screw with it as much as he suggests. OTOH, if
it wasn't fitted and adjusted by a good bike shop, you should consider
having that done.

A lot of pains and discomfort can be relieved by a properly fitted bike.
This is especially critical if you have a documented back injury like yours
and you're planning 100 mile training rides.

Go get fitted, it'll be the best $50 you ever spent. If you aggravate your
back experimenting with some self-diagnosed aggressive bike position you
might kill your chances of finishing an IM on day one.

John

On 8/21/05 8:00 AM, in article, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Regarding your aero position on the bike, if you haven't done this,
bring your seat as far forward as possible, rise your saddle height and
lower your bars. That way, your angle between the hamstring and your
lower back will remain the same as when you sit more upright. It is as
if you were sitting upright and lifting the rear wheel of the bike. You
are not changing your position, but you are still becoming more
aerodynamic. Also, work towards bringing your arms as close together as
possible even if you are sitting upright. You will still be able to
create an aero position w/o putting strain on your back.

When I rode aerodynamic in a more traditional position, I would get
back pain within 40 miles. Since moving my saddle forward, I have been
pain free. I can lay on my bars for the entire day and it is really
confy.

Andres

Eric said:

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

IMKen wrote:

>I think you are on the right track. Increase your distance, especially on
>the bike. I find that extremely long hours on the bike, I.E., 8 hours for
>150 mile rides, and shorter run training get me through fine and I have
>several years on you Eric though only 165 when race ready.
>
>Ken
>
>
>"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
>>input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
>>details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
>>the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
>>training regiments.
>>Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
>>years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
>>is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
>>1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
>>run).
>>I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
>>6'1" and 185 lbs.
>>I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
>>is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
>>keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
>>reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
>>okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
>>My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
>>year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
>>general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
>>long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
>>somewhere).
>>I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
>>is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
>>(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).
>>
>>Thanks for any input, Eric
>
>
>

tried it, forgot about it, sounds like a winner, will get back to it again
thanks,
Eric

Cass & Martin said:

Hey Eric,

Have you thought about water running?

The a while back a womans cross country champ had a leg injury that
prevented her from running - her coach got her into the pool ( diving pool
so it was deep water) , using a water running belt, she literally "ran" in
the water. After time weight were added to make her have to work harder.

When it came time for the cross country champs, she was as fit as if she had
been doing 90+km's a week off road, came out raced, and won

...... worth a thought

Regards,
Martin.

"Eric" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another question/thread about IM training and racing. Any
input appreciated: sorry for long message I'll try to put in as as many
details as possible yet be brief about it. I want to do an IM distance in
the future, one to three years off. I'd appreciate some input about
training regiments.
Background: I've been doing sprint and international distances for 10-plus
years. (raced for six, took three off for extended health troubles, this
is my third full season back.) I've done average of 10 events a year: two
1/2 IM and the rest international distance (1500 meter swim, 40K bike, 10K
run).
I'm 53, and damned slow and my IM goal is to finish before the cut off.
6'1" and 185 lbs.
I have degenerative disc disorder which interferes with performance (bike
is pretty pain free, but any aero position just ain't possible). I have to
keep run training miles as low a possible, too much pounding on the spine
reeks havoc on my injuries, so no fast times, but endurance miles are
okay). My one marathon time was 5:20.
My endurance level is pretty good right now, so I figured I give myself a
year or two to build up to the longer distances (100 bike, 20 run). My
general thought is cut back on week-day miles and start building
long-distance runs or bike on weekends (work and family has to fit
somewhere).
I want to get the first IM done in the next few years. My spinal problem
is degenerative and if I wait too long I won't be able to run any more
(and don't think I can walk it in time to finish).

Thanks for any input, Eric

wrote more about setup above, thanks for the input. I have a custom
fitted Serotta CIII that reduced my pain a great deal... I ain't gonna
mess with that setup at all.
In the past I tried radical changes, not a good idea with my spinal
problems. After a short, hard ride I wound up in the emergency room
begging for morphine
Thanks,
Eric

Tom Henderson said:

John Hardt <[email hidden]> wrote in news:BF2DEA9A.9C58%
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Andres' advice made me cringe.

Ditto. Very difficult to give this type of advice over the net,
particularly when you don't know how the bikle was set up BEFORE you start
throwing random directions on adjustment out.

Eric said:

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

Eric,

I'm 57, did my first IM at 50, and am a last hour finisher in all of
them. Although I don't have as bad a back as yours, I have to be
careful or I'm laid up with mine, so I know where you're coming from.
Fast running or real long runs are out for me, too. And a lot of aero
on the bike is a no-no.

What I do is substitute quality for quantity, and bike quality for run
quality. I try to figure out workouts on the bike that are aerobically
similar to what I'd do on the run.

For example, since speed workouts are out for running, I do back to
back Spin classes at our gym and turn them into a series of speed
workouts. Similar aerobic effect, but no stress on the back from
running.

Hills are another way. Although I live on the cost of southeast
Georgia, which is pool table flat, we do have one of those huge
high-rise bridges over our port channel. 6-7% grade, 1 1/2 miles long.
So what I do is just go out and go back and forth for 2 to 3 hours.
High quality, constant effort, with a nice "whoo hoo" downhill for
relief. Yesterday's was done in 110 Heat index, so it's pretty brutal
sometimes.

In other words, in addition to the "long" stuff on the bike, use it
for the higher quality workouts that lots of folks do on the run.

Although my back isn't bad enough to resort to water running, I've
heard it is an excellent way to go. That's a top notch idea.

Good luck and don't be reluctant to let us know how you're doing.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

from one penguin to another... thanks and "waddle on"
eric

Mike Tennent said:

Eric said:

thanks, I'll bump up the weekend rides. I've done 137 with pretty good
results. Summer is about gone; I kind of like winter riding but most of
my favorite routes have a headwind on the RETURN half, and damn that
gets old really fast when you get sweaty on the way OUT.
Eric

Eric,

I'm 57, did my first IM at 50, and am a last hour finisher in all of
them. Although I don't have as bad a back as yours, I have to be
careful or I'm laid up with mine, so I know where you're coming from.
Fast running or real long runs are out for me, too. And a lot of aero
on the bike is a no-no.

What I do is substitute quality for quantity, and bike quality for run
quality. I try to figure out workouts on the bike that are aerobically
similar to what I'd do on the run.

For example, since speed workouts are out for running, I do back to
back Spin classes at our gym and turn them into a series of speed
workouts. Similar aerobic effect, but no stress on the back from
running.

Hills are another way. Although I live on the cost of southeast
Georgia, which is pool table flat, we do have one of those huge
high-rise bridges over our port channel. 6-7% grade, 1 1/2 miles long.
So what I do is just go out and go back and forth for 2 to 3 hours.
High quality, constant effort, with a nice "whoo hoo" downhill for
relief. Yesterday's was done in 110 Heat index, so it's pretty brutal
sometimes.

In other words, in addition to the "long" stuff on the bike, use it
for the higher quality workouts that lots of folks do on the run.

Although my back isn't bad enough to resort to water running, I've
heard it is an excellent way to go. That's a top notch idea.

Good luck and don't be reluctant to let us know how you're doing.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Most training plans include 3 hard weeks and one easy week. I hope
that helps!