Hill problems

"Larry Hartman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news😄R4Ne.4293$_D4.1198@trndny05...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where

I

Quoted message said:

can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer

in

Quoted message said:

mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any

particular

Quoted message said:

exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize

it's

Quoted message said:

probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill,

gravity

Quoted message said:

is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will

improve

Quoted message said:

my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

Sounds like you need to incorporate "table push-aways" into your workout
routine.

Seriously, cycling (especially in the hills) is about power to weight ratio.
Your size is a major handicap when going uphill, and it's unlikely you can
make up the difference on the downhills because we tend to spend more time
climbing than descending.

The more you ride, the stronger you'll get, and you've only been riding a
year so you can anticipate some additional gains in strength (as long as you
ride consistently). But, those will only be marginal gains, compared to
what losing 50 lbs (or more) would do for you.

Fortunately, cycling can help with weight loss - it's a very efficient way
to burn calories. But, you can easily subvert a good exercise program with
a few poor food choices, or by "rewarding" yourself with food after every
ride. "Portion control" is needed, unless you're riding 200+ miles per
week.

A good goal would be to lose 1/2 - 1 lb per week - this can be done via a
modest daily deficit of 250-500 calories. You can achieve this by eating a
little less, or by exercising a little more, or (ideally) by doing a bit of
both.

Best of luck, and keep those pedals turning.

~_-*
....G/ \G
http://www.CycliStats.com
CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

Larry Hartman said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

The only thing that will help you climb hills - is climbing hills. You
should take a page from those riders in the faster group and pedal all
of the time. It'll help you burn calories, improve your cardiovascular
system and toughen up those legs. No more free rides downhill.

In general what you're describing with your legs refusing to cooperate
is a lactic acid build-up. You're not operating aerobically so the
lactic acid doesnt' break down.
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=6246

If you can keep up the 3x/week schedule, and keep pushing yourself a
little harder each time, you'll see results in both your climbing
ability and weight loss. When you're weight starts approaching 200-210
you'll be an animal. You'll have all of that muscle you gained from
lugging that luggage around - and no more luggage.

Keep up the good work!

R

Larry Hartman said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

The only way to get better on hills is to climb them; and you get
better faster the less you weigh. Sad but unfortunate fact. But you
may not be as effective as you can be at your particular weight. When
you start climbing, how do you climb, do you try to use power and a
high gear, or do you click down to a low gear and try to spin? If you
are not spinning (high cadence), why not? Is it because you go
anaerobic when you try? If that is the case, then doing interval
training to increase your cardio fitness and move your anaerobic zone
further out, etc., could help. Another tip, make sure you do proper
recovery. Stretch after rides, take days off the bike (which you seem
to be doing), etc. Legs that are too tired will not go fast.

It is rare for one to be able to use fast descents to make up for slow
climbs. Take a 3 mile hill. If you can climb it at 10MPH average,
you will take 18 min to climb it. If you do it with a 6MPH average, it
will take 30 minutes. A (very) slow descender might do 15MPH coming
down, so it would take 12 min to descend, while a fast descender doing
30MPH ave would cover it in 6 min. If the slow climber was the fast
descender, that is 36 min. for up and down, while the fast
climber/very slow descender would still take only 30min for the up and
down. Being a very fast descender is only an advantage against
climbers of near equal ability.

- rick 'a fast climber who stays at the back on group climbs'

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT, "Larry Hartman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

Gary and others gave you excellent advice. But here's some things for the
'hard gainer' type of rider:

1. Make sure you pay attention to the details of hydration, equipment,
clothing and rest and consistent training. Consistency is more important
than -anything- else. The details can really add up. If you fail to hydrate
in the first 20 minutes it may end up affecting you if you've lost more
than 1% of your bodyweight by the 30 mile point.

2. Make sure the bike is tuned up properly and you have a good fit.

3. Find at least ten different methods for riding a hill, including
standing, seated, in the drops, attacking, slaloming, mashing, getting
'light' and over the pedals, and various cadences and combinations of the
above. Learn to use these methods to 'smo-o-o-th' out the hills. Get over
them with as little energy as possible. If you attack at first, but then
let yourself slide from a front position to just near the back so you still
have a wheel to hang onto as you get over the top, then it can be a
psychological boost. Certainly when you're 'training' on a hill it's best
to do it in the saddle. But when you're group riding you want to make it
easier, not harder to get over that hill.

4. Practice various hill types by doing 'hill repeats' on your own. Find a
perfect hill for long pulls, i.e. a 2-4mile hill with a 4% grade with many
places to pull off on sidestreets if you start to redline too much. Find
also a hill that's about 200-300 yds and a 5-8% grade that you can practice
attacking. Then do hill repeats on these if possible.

5. Learn to breath. Remember it's not that we can't get enough oxygen, it's
that we can't get rid of the CO2. As you start to breath harder, do some
sharp exhalations to get rid of that CO2.

6. Be careful how you parcel out your efforts and only occasionally go
'over your head' on a ride. Remember we improve during rest and if you go
too far into your mental reserves too often you may have trouble with
neurologically recovering.

Good luck!

jj

255 lbs is fat.
It's easier said than done but you need to lose tons to improve your
climbing.
Mind you I'm fat myself, 6'2" and about 205lb.

It's easier said than done.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Larry

Hartman said:

Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

yep. hill climbing. do intervals on short hills; ride up,
spinning at 90 rpm in low gear, ride down, turn around and ride
back up. repeat 10 times, take a break, and do it 10 more.

do it every day for a month and you will be shocked at how well
you do.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:34:30 -0800, [email hidden] (Dennis P.

Harris) said:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 18:56:35 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Larry

Hartman said:

Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

yep. hill climbing. do intervals on short hills; ride up,
spinning at 90 rpm in low gear, ride down, turn around and ride
back up. repeat 10 times, take a break, and do it 10 more.

do it every day for a month and you will be shocked at how well
you do.

IME, you need two types of hill repeats, maybe even three.

One type is the short steep type, maybe 200, 300 yards, 8%. Attack those
hills and watch your speedometer - do whatever makes you go up them faster,
be it spinning up, mashing, getting in the drops, standing, or a
combination. Attack, attack, attack. Find a course where you have about
10-20 of these types of hills and attack on every hill. You want to really
burn those quads. Once you hit a top speed, try and maintain it over the
top - don't sag - recover on the flat, but keep that speed up.

The second type - again, just my opinion - is the longer hill with a 3-5%
grade, but 2-4 miles in length. Here you want to learn to relax and not
panic, and get in a low gear and just pedal up them efficiently, quiet
upper body, not excessively pulling on the handlebars, weight over the
pedals, stretched out body position, maybe a little forward on the saddle.
You don't want to feel maxed out on any of your systems, breathing should
be steady, not heavy, and legs should feel relaxed - not in attack mode.
You're trying to conserve and relax. I only do two to three repeats on this
type of hill in any one session at this point. (I'm still a beginner).

The third type is shorter, maybe 1 to 1.5 miles, but with some steeps, some
lesser grades, maybe even a little downhill. Here you want to just get up
that hill fast, controlled breathing, but you want to be breathing hard.
You're not doing the emphasis on relaxing that you need on the 2-4 mile
hills, and you're not really overtly attacking. Try to ride it in the
saddle. Pick a hill that takes you about 12 minutes to get up, and then do
repeats and try to steadily cut down that time, while remaining aerobic,
controlling the breathing, not red-lining, but it should involve very heavy
breathing. I try to do three repeats on hills like this minimum, with
recovery being the time it takes me to go back down.

Now obviously there's a fourth type of hill which is even better, and
that's a combination of any of the above. One of my hardest workouts is a
300yd steep hill with an 8-9% grade that leads up to a long 1/2 mile hill
but with only a grade of about 3% or even less. But I'm nearing the red
zone when I reach the top of the steep and just fight to keep up tempo as I
do the rest of the lighter grade slope. When I hit the lighter grade I try
to crank it like I'm on the flat, and get up to near crusing speed. At the
end of this I'm usually breathing harder than on my type 2 hill. For some
reason I think I get the most benefit from this type. The temptation is to
sag as you reach the false flat, but you have to just fight that.

Just my opinion and what kind of work I do. Actually I don't have much
choice, because where I live is all hills of these types. My thought is if
you have these three types of 'abilities', relaxed, attacking, and
controlled, but hard breathing, then you can string them together and
handle most any other type of hills, I guess outside the major mountains.

In addition to this breakdown, I try to do two other things.

First I try to have many different ways to get up a hill, including
cadence, mashing, spinning, slaloming, mixing standing and seated, and
using side streets to pull off if I redline too much. That way if I get in
trouble, I think to myself I can change something and make it easier, give
one of my systems that having a problem get a little rest or something.

I try never to attempt a hill that's -too much- difficulty for me at my
current level, because I want to maintain that mental attitude like a
fighter that's never been knocked out - i.e., I always win. Even if it's a
temporary illusion, I want to always have a positive experience. I do pick
hills and routes occasionally that are over my head, but not by much. I
only do this about once every couple months. I'll find a course that just
about seems impossible and try to peak my training to ride it. I'll get a
friend to help me by having a sag wagon at various points in case I get in
big trouble. (need extra water, or get bad cramps or something)

The other thing I do is when I'm -riding- the hills versus -training- on
the hills. When -riding- I want to make the hills as -easy- as possible.
Smooth them out. Cheat, slalom, stand for a short period, almost try to
ignore the difficulty. It's mostly mental, but here you're calling on the
various combinations of in your training of cadence tricks, aero position,
changing position, you name it, but the idea is to flatten those hills out,
make them as 'easy' as possible.

When 'training' on a hill, I almost want to make the hill as -hard- as
possible, by staying in the saddle, or by doing the whole hill standing, or
by making attack after attack, and then doing repeats. Again a bit of a
mental trick, but it helps me.

Not sure if I'm right, or if it makes sense. Obviously I suck at doing
hills, that's why I've had to break it up and create various strategies.
;-D

jj

You've already come a long way in your first year. Be patient with
climbing hills. You will improve. And as one person signed this
thread: rick 'a fast climber who stays at the back on group climbs'.
Keep this in mind while on the flats.

Larry Hartman said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill, gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

There's two kinds of games with hills. The first is trying to hang with the
other riders on a climb.

The second is a personal challenge: Make it all the way to the top of a big
hill without stopping to rest.

I think this second game is the one preferred by lots of touring riders on
this discussion group. One of the fun things about touring in the U.S. is
that you can meet people who ask you where you're thinking of riding, and
you point toward a certain hill, and they say, "Bicycles can't go up that".

I find that the requirements for getting up a big hill near my limit are
different from the first game: One requirement is strategy: mental
discipline in going real slow and steady. And finding out that I could go
slower than I thought.

And for me riding slow is not just mental, it also demands technique: I've
worked a lot on training non-obvious muscles to keep applying force to the
pedal through the "dead spots" in the stroke cycle. At higher speeds you can
sort of "cover over" the dead spots in the pedaling-circle, and on flat
ground you can coast through them, but going slow up a tough hill exposes
the "truth" about dead spots. (Currently I train for that by doing intervals
where I pedal with only one leg at a time, with my bike on a training stand
in my living room.)

Of course there's also the muscle-training with an interval workout once a
week. Actually I do it indoors, which is less specific than real hills, but
at least that way I do it. Seems to help, since a couple of weeks ago on
my first try in several years I maed it up the toughest hill within three
hours driving from my home. (It's the hill where some of the visiting Euro
pro racers got off and walked).

jet wrote

Quoted message said:

you need two types of hill repeats, maybe even three.

Yes I think variety is a good thing in training.

A helpful book for serious training is the Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe
Friel. It's targeted for racers, so I mostly ignore the parts that are
focused on sprinting, because I play the second hill game -- though
short-interval workouts are good training for lots more than just sprinting.
Those who play the first hill game of competition on B rides might find that
sprint training is just what they were looking for.

Ken

Ken Roberts said:

And for me riding slow is not just mental, it also demands technique:

Well as Lasse Viren once said, 'everyone can run slow...I want to run
fast'. (just teasing).

Quoted message said:

I've worked a lot on training non-obvious muscles to keep applying force to the
pedal through the "dead spots" in the stroke cycle.

Any specific muscles, or do you just mean whatever muscles that get
recruited by my one-legged rides and spinning? Right now I'm doing a
significant amount of 'V-stroke' pedalling, but trying to do it on the
false flats and getting over the top of a hill and not putting too much
stress into it.

Yesteday I actually had a pretty neat sensation from it - I felt the lower
part of my glutes start to feel the burn for about 1-2 minutes, but then I
kind of lost that contribution. I'm going to try for it again the rest of
the week. My hamstrings are always (apparently) strongly activated without
much thinking about it. My right hamstrings are freakishly large. The left
is lagging because of a bit of an injury, but I'm trying to bring them up.

Quoted message said:

At higher speeds you can
sort of "cover over" the dead spots in the pedaling-circle, and on flat
ground you can coast through them, but going slow up a tough hill exposes
the "truth" about dead spots. (Currently I train for that by doing intervals
where I pedal with only one leg at a time, with my bike on a training stand
in my living room.)

I tried to do this on my fly-wheel driven stationary bike and could not get
the pedal to come around. I'll have to get a trainer this fall and try what
you're suggesting. How much work did you start out with one-legged and what
have you worked up to?

Quoted message said:

Of course there's also the muscle-training with an interval workout once a
week. Actually I do it indoors, which is less specific than real hills, but
at least that way I do it. Seems to help, since a couple of weeks ago on
my first try in several years I maed it up the toughest hill within three
hours driving from my home. (It's the hill where some of the visiting Euro
pro racers got off and walked).

Whoa. Cool. Got a cooordinate I can plug into Topo USA?

Quoted message said:

jet wrote

Quoted message said:

you need two types of hill repeats, maybe even three.

Yes I think variety is a good thing in training.

A helpful book for serious training is the Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe
Friel. It's targeted for racers, so I mostly ignore the parts that are
focused on sprinting, because I play the second hill game -- though
short-interval workouts are good training for lots more than just sprinting.
Those who play the first hill game of competition on B rides might find that
sprint training is just what they were looking for.

I have Friel's book, 'cycling past 50'. I use that and Carmichael's book
with Lance and those seem to be working OK. Mostly though, I'm doing what I
can do and not what I should be doing. I think I'll get farther that way
right now.

Thanks for the comments and insights!

jj

Quoted message said:

Ken

Thanks for all the great advice. When I first started riding, I'd have
myself talked into walking up a hill before I even got to it. I no longer do
that, in fact, I haven't let a hill get the best of me for the last 6
months. I live in south central Pennsylvania, most of the mountains around
me, are probably hills to those of you who live out west. But I have yet to
find one I couldn't pedal up, not fast, not pretty, but I pedal up them.
When I first started trying the hills, I would use as high a gear as I
could and try to power up the hill. Most of the experienced riders that I
rode with told me to drop a few gears and spin my way up. I tried that but I
kept running out of air, I blamed it on the rest of the group passing me and
sucking all the oxygen out of it.
Last night I did a 30mi. club ride with eight other people, it started
by going up one the longest hills in the area. I've been trying all sorts of
different techniques trying to find something that will get me up the hills.
I think I am finally coming around to the lower gear faster cadence way of
thinking. I still ended up out the back and on my own, but not by nearly as
far as usual. So I think things are starting to come around, and assuming I
can drop 50 more pounds, of this body whose only job is to wiggle when I
walk, I should be in fairly good shape by next season. In fact, last night I
did end up at the front of the pace line riding along at 22mph, everytime I
moved over to let someone else pull, they all moved over with me. I finally
called back I was slowing, and pulled out of line. I need some practice
doing that also, I tried to slow just a bit so the whole group would pass.
But when the last one went by, I didn't react quick enough and was left out
on my own again. I never realized how hard it was to catch up to a paceline
when you are by yourself. Luckily they had to make a turn so I caught back
up.

Thanks again for all the good advice.

jet wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedal through the dead spots ...

Any specific muscles?

What I notice most is the part of the cycle where my pedal and leg come up
in back. I'm coming to think that's not just a "dead spot", but actually a
negative propulsion section of the single-leg pedal-stroke-cycle. Because I
find in my single-leg pedaling drills that the main limitation on how long I
can keep doing it is just lifting up the weight of my own leg. I believe the
move to lift the leg in pedaling is called "hip flexion", and in my
single-leg drills I get this burn on the front of my hip area.

I'm thinking that in two-legged pedaling, my other leg gets a "free ride"
going up while the leg is doing it's main down-push. Which means that part
of the work of my main down-push is going into lifting the other leg, not
pushing the bike forward. So my bicycling mind has become offended at this
thought of the "laziness" of my leg, and I'm determined to train each leg to
just "lift its own weight". After three months of various weekly single-leg
sessions, my current performance at a low resistance setting is that I can
maintain a normal pedaling cadence of say 85 rpm for barely a minute with
each single leg. And the longest I've pedaled at low resistance at around 75
rpm is 8 minutes. So on any big hill, my "lazy" leg-lift moves are still
"stealing" power from the other leg's down-push labor.

The second part of the cycle that I notice as a "dead spot" in my single-leg
drill is "coming over the top" -- pushing forward with my knee-extension /
quadriceps muscles. Funny we think of the quadriceps is big important leg
muscles, but I don't think I was using them very effectively in my seated
pedaling. Because they push my foot forward, and my natural intuition from
running is that pushing my foot forward is OK for the "easy recovery" part
of the overall leg motion, but the "wrong" direction for the "serious
propulsive push" part. I think that's one reason people stand up to climb
hills, because then they feel the push of the quadriceps "aimed" more
downward, which intuitively feels OK for serious propulsion.

Quoted message said:

How much work did you start out with one-legged
and what have you worked up to?

So far I've only used pretty low resistance for single-leg pedaling. First
it took me plenty of sessions just to get any sort of smooth pedaling cycle
with a single leg. Then had to work up to 60 seconds with one leg at a
cadence of not more than 60 rpm. For several weeks I did 60 sec with one, 30
sec easy with both, 60 sec with the other, 30 sec easy both . . . as I
gradually worked the cadence up into the 70s. (I'm sure any serious racer
would find this performance just laughable).

Quoted message said:

I tried to do this on my fly-wheel driven stationary bike

I strongly suspect the fly-wheel defeats the whole purpose of the single-leg
drill, since the usual reason for having the mass and rotational inertia of
a flywheel is to easily "carry through" the low-power spots. I'd guess that
any exercise bicycle at a health club where the pedals "keep on going" for a
short while after you stop is not good working on the "dead spot" problem.\

Quoted message said:

the toughest hill within three hours driving from my home.

http://roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/m/climbs

Quoted message said:

I have Friel's book, 'cycling past 50'

Sounds like something new -- and probably more suitable for lots of touring
riders than the one I mentioned.

I do think there's more effective methods for training for touring than just
getting out and riding lots of miles.

Ken

The best advice anybody ever gave me about climbing hills was to hold my
head up and smile all the way. It helps the oxygen flow and de-stresses a
lot of muscles so that they will perform better.

While doing a pretty hilly ride along the Connecticut coastline a few years
ago, I also developed a mindset of conquering hills in segments, setting my
goal toward a certain piece of debris or a tree along the road ahead, then
setting a new goal every time one was achieved. The only rule was that I
could not stop pedaling at any time. This helped me maintain a positive
attitude for most of the climb, whereas trying to mentally conquer the hill
in one seemingly impossible chunk would have psyched me out before I ever
began my ascent.

Just a different way to look at it...

"Larry Hartman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news😄R4Ne.4293$_D4.1198@trndny05...

Quoted message said:

Hello all,
I've been road biking for almost a year. I've joined a bike club and
have been participating in club rides at least 3 times a week weather
permitting. I currently do our "C+" rides which are rides between 25 and
30mi. at 13 to 15 mph. I'm trying to improve my fitness to the point where
I
can move up to the "B" rides, which are 15 to 17 mph and slightly longer
in
mileage. The thing that is killing me is my hill climbing ability. After
about 30mi. my legs seem to refuse to power me up the hills. I'm not over
weight, I'm fat, about 6'1 and 255lbs and dropping. Is there any
particular
exercise that I can do to increase my hill climbing ability? I realize
it's
probably my weight, but at the lower ride levels, I could make up the
difference in climbing ability, by my blazing speed going down hill,
gravity
is definitely my friend on the way down. But the guys and gals that I have
begun riding with now pedal all the time, up hill, down hill, their legs
spin constantly and once a hill is put into the picture I fall back and
can't keep up. Bottom line, is there an exercise out there that will
improve
my hill climbing, until I can shed some of this excess fat?

I really acknowledge your commitment. I'm inspired by you.

I can totally relate to lure of climbing hills. I live out west and
it's a very rewarding thing to do. There're couple of suggestions I
have.

1. Keep both feet on the pedels, and pedel with both of them.
One-legged stuff is not recommended for some one with your short term
goals.

2. Climbing hills is not the most efficient way of losing weight.
It's likely that you're very quickly going anaerobic and your body is
being fueled almost exclusively by glucose (which, along with lactic
acid build-up may be why you crash after a while). If you want to lose
weight, get a heart rate monitor, and work out for an hour a day (six
days a week) between 65 and 72% of your max heart rate. You can do it
indoors or out. You will train your body to be a fat burning machine
fairly quickly by staying in that range. That's how you'll lose weight
(keeping a record of your daily calorie intake can help a lot too).
Then you'll be a monster on those hills. If you really want to get
specific, have a VO2 max test done at the gym and you'll get a very
accurate max heart rate to put into your heart rate monitor rather than
the age based calculations.

3. The second half of being a monster on those hills is training your
body to buffer lactic acid better. That's done through interval
traing. Bring your heart rate up (80 - 85%) and then back down (70%).
Do a little research into anaerobic threshold training. You can train
your body fairly quickly (a few months maybe) to buffer enough lactic
acid to keep up on those hills.

4. The third half of eating up those hill is covered fairly well in
all the other responses to your post.

Joe

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:33:36 GMT, "Larry Hartman" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all the great advice. When I first started riding, I'd have
myself talked into walking up a hill before I even got to it. I no longer do
that, in fact, I haven't let a hill get the best of me for the last 6
months. I live in south central Pennsylvania, most of the mountains around
me, are probably hills to those of you who live out west. But I have yet to
find one I couldn't pedal up, not fast, not pretty, but I pedal up them.
When I first started trying the hills, I would use as high a gear as I
could and try to power up the hill. Most of the experienced riders that I
rode with told me to drop a few gears and spin my way up. I tried that but I
kept running out of air, I blamed it on the rest of the group passing me and
sucking all the oxygen out of it.

I think Andy Coggan did a study proving this to be true. It's a subtle,
almost relativistic effect, but it does happen.

Quoted message said:

Last night I did a 30mi. club ride with eight other people, it started
by going up one the longest hills in the area. I've been trying all sorts of
different techniques trying to find something that will get me up the hills.
I think I am finally coming around to the lower gear faster cadence way of
thinking. I still ended up out the back and on my own, but not by nearly as
far as usual. So I think things are starting to come around, and assuming I
can drop 50 more pounds, of this body whose only job is to wiggle when I
walk, I should be in fairly good shape by next season. In fact, last night I
did end up at the front of the pace line riding along at 22mph, everytime I
moved over to let someone else pull, they all moved over with me. I finally
called back I was slowing, and pulled out of line. I need some practice
doing that also, I tried to slow just a bit so the whole group would pass.
But when the last one went by, I didn't react quick enough and was left out
on my own again. I never realized how hard it was to catch up to a paceline
when you are by yourself. Luckily they had to make a turn so I caught back
up.

Sounds like you're doing a great job. Don't sweat it. At least you've got a
group that you can hang with and there's no greater motivation, and no
better way to get good fast, and that's to ride with someone better than
you.

On the thing about dropping 50 more pounds...

I don't know what mileages you're getting per week, but just a bit of a
warning; I didn't start losing weight until I got up over 150 miles per
week. Now I was only riding at a sedate 16 to 17mph, and an average speed
of about 14mph, with all the turning around at neighborhood dead ends, and
slowing and circling at traffic lights. So at 22 mph speeds, you may be
burning a tad more calories. Not sure if you could get by with less
mileage, but riding with a group, I suspect you're at least getting around
100 per week..

I was losing about 2lbs per week at 150-160 miles per week, riding twice a
day. I only did this high mileage for about a month, and then dropped back
to 80-100 miles per week for the rest of the year.

This year I've since dropped my mileage this spring to get some more speed,
and to work on my climbing to around 50-70 miles per week.

I'm upping it again starting this month but at about 2-3mph faster speed
overall.. The weight loss is still there, but it's about 1-2lbs per month!
(yikes). Pretty slow. And I don't normally eat any white sugar or white
carbs though I do a targetted carb-up pre and post ride. (honey, and
Endurox).

Quoted message said:

Thanks again for all the good advice.

Shee-yah, I babble a lot, but mostly I'm just working stuff out for my on
clarification.

jj

Quoted message said:

255 lbs is fat.
It's easier said than done but you need to lose tons to improve your
climbing.
Mind you I'm fat myself, 6'2" and about 205lb.

It's easier said than done.

Yes and no. It depends upon your willingness to do something and stick to
it. I wasn't fat but definitely heavier than I should have been; my weight
got up to 185, and I'm 6'. As I got older, hills were getting tougher, and I
absolutely, positively wanted to get faster (climbing). My speed on the
flats and rollers was great, and I could do longer rides (200k) pretty much
standing on my head, but the steep stuff... I was getting dropped way too
quickly. And I was rationalizing that my riding was allowing me to eat what
I wanted to.

So I went to nothing but salads for lunch on weekdays (Wendy's) and that did
the trick, in two ways. First, it had the obvious effect of reducing
calories, and second, I started to not like fatty foods so much. Don't know
why, it just happened. Down to 169 now and feeling a whole lot better.

Oh, the other part of the routine, besides eating salads for lunch, is to
weigh myself every day. When for some reason or other (most likely differing
levels of water retention) my weight drops down a bit, I decide that's the
new semi-permanent target I want.

It's really nice having a real weight that's lower than what's on the
driver's license. :>😉

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 03:55:57 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

255 lbs is fat.
It's easier said than done but you need to lose tons to improve your
climbing.
Mind you I'm fat myself, 6'2" and about 205lb.

It's easier said than done.

Yes and no. It depends upon your willingness to do something and stick to
it. I wasn't fat but definitely heavier than I should have been; my weight
got up to 185, and I'm 6'. As I got older, hills were getting tougher, and I
absolutely, positively wanted to get faster (climbing). My speed on the
flats and rollers was great, and I could do longer rides (200k) pretty much
standing on my head, but the steep stuff... I was getting dropped way too
quickly. And I was rationalizing that my riding was allowing me to eat what
I wanted to.

I was comparing the effect of time and extra body weight to the way the
topo mapping software uses those '1x, 2x, 4x' buttons on the terrain. When
I was a 150lb kid the same terrain I'm riding now was 1x, and I could ride
up it with no training, no prep, nothing. Now it's about 2x or 3x b/c of
being well over 200lbs (arrgh). I remember back when I was doing a lot of
weight training and some local triathlons and I figured I could just jump
on the bike and ride - my forte being swimming and some running. I went out
to ride some places I did - with no training - as a skinny student and
could -not- ride the durn route. I kinda backed off and figured with all
that muscle (my weight gain wasn't any fat) that I was just too heavy to
ride a bike now. It did -not- occur to me <smacking side of head> that you
had to 'train' to ride a bicycle. I wonder how many 20 and 30 year old this
kind of thing happens to, lol.

Quoted message said:

So I went to nothing but salads for lunch on weekdays (Wendy's) and that did
the trick, in two ways. First, it had the obvious effect of reducing
calories, and second, I started to not like fatty foods so much. Don't know
why, it just happened. Down to 169 now and feeling a whole lot better.

I read a comment recently that I thought was worth pondering. <paraphrased>

On a particular ride you may burn xxxx calories, but you don't need to
'replace' all those calories, (if you're trying to lose weight/fat) you
just need to get some sugar and protein into your body shortly after the
ride is over (or if you're riding past an hour, during the ride), usually
something around 2gms/kg of body weight of a 4:1 protein carb ratio, though
don't quote me on the exact formula. So if I ride for an hour, I drink 24
oz of fluid, one bottle of water, one bottle of skim milk and ovaltine, or
one bottle of a sports drink.

Quoted message said:

Oh, the other part of the routine, besides eating salads for lunch, is to
weigh myself every day. When for some reason or other (most likely differing
levels of water retention) my weight drops down a bit, I decide that's the
new semi-permanent target I want.

Cool. Most people in the 'diet ngs' say don't weigh yourself everyday, but
as you've shown there are good reasons to do it here...

Quoted message said:

It's really nice having a real weight that's lower than what's on the
driver's license. :>😉

What's your BF%? You could probably go do a free introductory visit to some
gym and get a free caliper test. Might be interesting. You might find out
you could get down to 160 and still have the same energy. But you'd lose
that last few lbs of fat -very- slowly to spare your muscle, imo.

jj

Quoted message said:

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Good hill climbers have strong hamstrings, both on the bike and
running. I am very thin, yet I am an excellent DOWN hill rider and
runner because my quads are relatively stronger than hamstrings, true
for everyone but much more so for me. I get passed uphill by fluffo
plumpos whom I pass downhill. However, I am not daunted by hills. I
even marvel at my ability to remain upright at 4 miles per hour and at
the same ability when flying down the same hill at 53mph. So I suggest
not worrying about it, but just do hills regularly anyhow.

rtk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, the other part of the routine, besides eating salads for lunch, is to
weigh myself every day. When for some reason or other (most likely
differing
levels of water retention) my weight drops down a bit, I decide that's the
new semi-permanent target I want.

Cool. Most people in the 'diet ngs' say don't weigh yourself everyday, but
as you've shown there are good reasons to do it here...

What works for some doesn't work for others. What got me started on losing a
bit of weight was the Sequoia double-metric in '04. I came back 8 pounds
lighter at the end than I started; obviously, most of that was water. But
that became my target- keep those 8 pounds off. After two weeks, my weight
stabilized at the lower weight (and no, I didn't stop drinking water!).

If I hadn't checked the scale, I wouldn't have had the motivation. The
changes in weight aren't fast, and that can cause problems for many, who
want to see big results quickly. That's probably the reason they don't
recommend weighing yourself every day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's really nice having a real weight that's lower than what's on the
driver's license. :>😉

What's your BF%? You could probably go do a free introductory visit to
some
gym and get a free caliper test. Might be interesting. You might find out
you could get down to 160 and still have the same energy. But you'd lose
that last few lbs of fat -very- slowly to spare your muscle, imo.

I could easily get down to 160 and not be in danger of losing muscle. Still
lots of extra stuff hanging around the middle! Oh, when I say I could
"easily" get down to 160, I don't mean that the process would be easy, just
that it could be done without sacrificing muscle.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com