hamstring strain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sore right hamstring.

CP, the sky is not falling.

Ah, Lance. Nobody else misunderstands me like you do!

Quoted message said:

Methinks you're thinking too much CP. You run, guess what...random
soreness comes and goes....get used to it.

This isn't "ignore it" quality random soreness, or I'd be ignoring it
and not posting. In fact historically that's been my usual course of
action for "stop running immediately" type injuries as well. C'mon
Lance, I'm the idiot who didn't let chest pain slow me down a month or
two ago.

You're right though, I described virtually everything *but* the problem
itself.

It's not notably swollen, nor does my wife report any discoloration (my
neck won't do the Linda Blair 180 degrees to have a look-see). It -
we're talking the back of the thigh, couple inches above the knee - is
tender to the touch, maybe a bit less today than yesterday.

The pain/discomfort is worst while running, especially downhill. And
yesterday when I didn't run but walked a fair bit, it was pretty
inconsequential until the end of the day, when soreness (bit of a
"burning" sensation) came on fairly rapidly and seemed to escalate the
last couple hours of the day. It's really faint again this morning.
Some movements or positions (bearing weight with knee bent, but also
lying in bed with knee extended and leg very straight) trigger it.

And no, it's not really really severe - I could handle running with
this moderate pain, except experience (e.g. vaguely similar pain in
mid-upper hamstring last fall) tells me that heeding this later not
sooner is gonna make it a lot worse in a hurry.

Quoted message said:

i like your style cp...i got you pegged for the financial services
industry? your ability to take minutia, stretch, and expand
it....making something out of nothing...etc. you're good.

I gotta admit, Lance, I'm getting a little spooked by your fixation on
me. I've had girlfriends that are not into me to the extent you are!

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

It's the lower part down by the knee. I guess that's called
semitendinosus - certainly it feels more like tendon than regular
muscle down there. Been feeling tight there much of the year.
Problems last couple years in *upper* hams, glutes, hips: seem to be OK
there so far (knock wood) thanks to stretching and self-massage.

There are two main tendon groups on the back of the knee, medial and
lateral. Is it the medial? I've had problems down there. Aggrivated by
long strides on downhill, interestingly, and when I have to step up a curb
or over rocks while running.

The cure for me is Ice, heat, and never run if it hurts. I can usually do
strenuous hikes (or uphill treadmill walking) to get my exercise fix in.
Stretching helps my bugaboo, but only if I can stretch without feeling any
pain from the area (learned this the hard way). In my case the
curative/preventative stretch is knees locked straight and touch the toes.

Healing time is 1-3 days for my particular bete noire.

So both in running and stretching, *avoid any pain*. Do not try to run
through it. That is the moral equivalent of rubbing sandpaper on an
abrasion.

I don't take NSAIDs (or SAIDs either, for that matter), 'cause inflammation
is part of the healing process. Suppressing inflammation can slow healing,
and more importantly, mask valuable pain signals which you need to guide
your stretching and running as you recover.

The more ice and heat sessions you can do in a day, the faster the recovery,
is my experience. Pro athletes sometimes get almost continuous heat/cool
therapy -- I read Kobe once strained his knee, got nearly continuous therapy
that night and the next day, and showed up for next day's game.

Tendonous injuries are slower to heal, on account of less bloodflow. I've
found that Ice/heat works to drastically decrease healing time for "white
tissue" (it's the other white meat) injuries.

-- Dan

On 10 Aug 2005 11:03:02 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This isn't "ignore it" quality random soreness, or I'd be ignoring it
and not posting.

Oh please, this means nothing. I've seen posts here about FEROCIOUS
tweety birds, mosquito bites, sore muscles, and yes, even hangnails.
This has given me a better understanding of what whining pussies the
majority of runners are. Nothing would surprise me anymore...

TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."
S**t list: Charlie Bendahoe, TBR imposter

Dan Stumpus said:

Is it the medial? [...] Aggrivated by long strides on downhill,
interestingly, and when I have to step up a curb or over rocks
while running.

Yeah, it is medial.

Downhill is what really seemed to get me, though my downhill strides
were about as short as they can be (very high stride rate @
low-moderate speed). I do step over lots of curbs: I run 90% of my
favorite 3.35 mi park loop on a dirt trail just inside the paved (and
unfortunately quite sloped) road - but I'll hop over the curb onto the
road and back over a dozen times per loop to avoid various obstacles
and other runners.

Thanks muchly for the tidbits, Dan. I'll try cycling heat with the
ice, and when I can do them comfortably, the toe touches. And maybe
activate another new pair of my (1/2 price on closeout earlier this
year) Air Spans and retire my current pair about 10% shy of 500, just
because.

The Bill Rodgers said:

[...] a better understanding of what whining pussies the
majority of runners are. Nothing would surprise me anymore...

Yeah no kidding. Wouldn't surprise me if some tw*t started keeping a
"S**t" list of the people who hurt his widdle feewings.

okay okay...guilty for chain yanking. but i did have a serious point
of advisement....meaning Extra Strength Ben Gay or the like for
immediate relief of most soreness in the legs.

cp, aside frome gels, i am going to run the nyc marathon this year with
a travel size heat sports gel like extra strength ben gay just in case
i develop some sort/form of soreness/strain...etc. stuff works
imo...to enable you to press on.

Auditioning for the Klan TBR? the key to being a relevant troll and
general pain in the ass is to not migrate into ethnicity/religion hate
speech.

Quoted message said:

Auditioning for the Klan TBR? the key to being a relevant troll and
general pain in the ass is to not migrate into ethnicity/religion hate
speech.

Hate? No hate involved, just facts. Charlie Bendahoe asked for it, and
as you know I'm always willing to dish it out. I sent you running for
cover many times. I seem to recall you even avoiding a race where I
threatened to show up and beat you senseless.
Trolling is about reactions, and how you do it is an individual thing
unique to each poster. This is why it's important to get to know a NG
and its "regulars" before you troll. Knowing the enemies weakness is
the key to winning in any contest.
Besides, haven't I thrown in some good posts lately? Even you didn't
argue with 99% of it.

TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."
S**t list: Charlie Bendahoe, TBR imposter

The Bill Rodgers said:

[...] it's important to get to know a NG and its "regulars" before
you troll. Knowing the enemies weakness is the key to winning in
any contest.

Lance, TBR ain't right often, but he is correct about this one detail.
But you already knew that, and in fact are a much subtler troll than he
is.

It's kind of embarassing that, here on rec.running, one of TBR's most
glaring weaknesses is, well, the running part.

"But outcry, always, the breath Of ~ I
Nourish, but are dead always ~ ? However, the I, you say,
Ferries the relative sport toward

The handle's
Aversion, a sport of Handel's Barge Music."
~ Merryvale

"If so, are differences always scaring
The breath Of ~ You, if you can nourish ~ ?"
~ Acacia

"Or perish. But they, The Deade, linger always,
Dissipating the sadness before early evening, an outcry,

At dusk, then, O, alas ~ Night
Begins, in order to laugh ~!"
~ Raven Noir

X-No-Archive: yes

Charlie Pendejo said:

Dammit, first musculoskeletal boo-boo (as opposed to e.g. digestive
insult, ooh those fish tacos urrgggh) of the year big enough to curtail
my running. Sore right hamstring. I'm all ears if anyone's got
advice, insight, sympathy, or a good funny insult.

You are complaining because you are hamstrung by a hamstring?

TBR

Quoted message said:

where
-----
It's the lower part down by the knee. I guess that's called
semitendinosus - certainly it feels more like tendon than regular
muscle down there. Been feeling tight there much of the year.
Problems last couple years in *upper* hams, glutes, hips: seem to be OK
there so far (knock wood) thanks to stretching and self-massage.

when
----
Last several miles of Sunday's long run, I felt lower right hamstring
getting tight. A brief burst of quicker running through a wider range
of motion - moderately paced strides - seemed to loosen it up for a
while. Didn't bother me much for 3.5 mi Monday AM run, but rapidly
became an issue Monday PM during downhill (Brooklyn Bridge, pretty
slow) about 4 miles in, so I cut run short. Haven't run since.

how
---
Factors I can think of:

- mileage: last week saw a significant increase (66 after lifetime high
of 55 only attained a few weeks prior)... OTOH prior week was rest, so
fortnightly mileage was 66+42=108, similar to previous couple weeks
55+55=110. And almost entirely easy pace.

- flexibility: I'm an uptight mofo by nature, been religiously
stretching including hams. BUT, feels like that's doing a lot more for
mid-upper part of the thigh than the tendonous lower part. Dunno if
there are other stretches which might target this area. I do hit that
area with a bit of self-massage via "the stick" and rolling on a rubber
ball. Also, running so many slow miles doesn't put the legs through
much range of motion.

- sleep: wanted to sleep more (than my regular ~7:30-7:45) during last
week's mileage increase but instead got slightly less (say ~7:15) the
last several days - kept waking up early or getting to bed late, no
time for naps.

- core strength:

Hamstring injuries in distance runners are often the result of
poor core-muscle strength, which allow the top of the pelvis to
rotate anteriorly - that is, toward the belly button - thereby
adding tension to the hamstring insertion at the base of the
buttocks. During the extension phase of the stride (when the
knee drives forward and the lower leg is extended), the hamstring
must contract eccentrically (the muscle lengthens) to control the
movement of the tibia, or lower leg. Together, these factors
place a tremendous amount of stress on the hamstring muscle tissue
itself and the connective tissue insertions at either end of the
muscle.

So sayeth "Colleen Glyde Julian, MS" in her _Run Strong_ chapter,
"Boosting Economy Through Lower-Body Strength". Shortly thereafter
Jack Daniels is quoted as saying "the most important muscle groups for
distance runners are in the trunk: abdominals and back. Everything of
importance works from that basic foundation."

And my trunk is too junk-y: haven't been doing anything for my core
aside from attention to posture especially when sitting at work, home,
or on the train. In the past a rowing machine has served me well, and
I should get back to it. I come closer to enjoying it and therefore
doing it regularly than crunches and other such floor exercises.

what
----
After Sun long run I took a cold bath. Since Mon PM run, been icing it
(about 15 min at a time, several times a day at least 2 hours apart)
and taking ibubrofen, not running, and some kind of arnica oil on it
overnight.

I plan to take ibuprofen another day or two, keep icing for a while,
try running 3.5 mi tomorrow (Thu) morning slow with glacial warmup,
start stretching very gently if it's not already hurting. Keep mileage
at about half (~30 mpw) for a week after that if all seems well.

trivia
------
this muscle's commonly called "hamstring" because butchers would hang
slaughtered pigs from it

Quoted message said:

in fact are a much subtler troll

10 paragraphs over a sore hammy w/no swelling or discoloration? making
a mountain out of a moe hill is far closer to troll stardom than 3.0x @
nyc. enough said.

Quoted message said:

cp, aside frome gels, i am going to run the nyc marathon this year with
a travel size heat sports gel like extra strength ben gay just in case
i develop some sort/form of soreness/strain...etc. stuff works
imo...to enable you to press on.

What about the shoes? Although your '05 NYCM was one of the more
exciting race reports on rec.running, I'm sure you don't want to go
through that again!

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Although your '05 NYCM

Oops, I guess that was '04, wasn't it?

--
Phil M.

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Charlie,

From an old post to Cam back in 2002.
Using the baseball under the hamstring and moving back and forth over
it to get fascial release (often called adhesions, where the sausage
skin around the muscle adheres to bone or another muscle or is
shortened so that the muscle can't move through its full range of
motion.

Also of concern for me would be the rolling of the quads. It has been
my contention for the past 20+ years that the hamstring pulls for many
runners are due to tight quads so that when the hamstring is working,
the quad cannot relax through its full range of motion and when it
tightens, the hamstring has to work against a semi contracted quad.

Back to rolling the quads, www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

In article <[email hidden]>, Cam

in Ottawa said:

OK, today was marked on my calendar as the day i would attempt a run....
after a one month layoff due to knee-related problems. not the knee
itself (i don't think), but the quad, ITB and hamstring.

even though the weather has turned treacherous (snow/ice pellets, ice
underfoot) since my last run, i swore i'd hit the roads, even if only
for 5 minutes. well, i managed about 15 minutes, but the old nagging
pain had returned after about 5 minutes. AARRGGG! i take a month off, no
running, baby my legs with massage, stretching, rolling, hot tubs and
swimming, and the knee STILL flares up?

Ozzie... anyone.... is there any more advice on this? have i done some
permanent damage, or perhaps have i not fully recovered. when i roll the
quads i feel extremely little, if any, tightness or pain. the ITB can
sometimes feel a bit sore. this *might* be the cause, as this morn's run
helped me pinpoint the trouble area - just to the outside edge of the
kneecap, where that durned ITB is. opinions? and should i attempt any
more runs - like tomorrow? it felt great being out running again,
despite the discomfort.

i'm about ready to go to my GP, who i rarely care to visit, and get her
to wack my legs off so i can get bionic ones put on.

P.O.'d in Ottawa, Cam 🙁

Cam,

I'm sitting here and sitting on my baseballs and working the hams loose
along with the tendons around the sitz bones. Rolling from side to
side I pop over the tendons which feel like pieces of taut rope. I
roll up the ham and then back down the ham, getting my pelvis to sit in
good posture. Since starting two days ago to roll the hams by sitting
on the baseballs, I freed my back from the tension it was
feeling...like it was caught and ready to go out.

If it were me starting back running, I'd just do it around my house so
that I could come back every 3 or 4 minutes to roll or massage or Stick
my legs where they're sore, but also look to the antagonist muscle
group that may be making the muscles that are sore, sore. The reason
being that the antagonist muscle group isn't letting go enought and the
sore muscles are due to the overwork they're experiencing.

For me, I don't know what you mean by a lay off. In my layoff days it
meant and still means that I covering 4 to six miles daily in a way
that doesn't hurt but at the same time works out the range of motion so
the fascia won't tighten even more due to the lay off.

Anyway, some late night thoughts about my own experience...and hope it
gives you some thoughts about what you can do. I'm interested in
seeing what it will be that you do that will get you on the mend and
able to teach us what you did to get back to no pain.

I'm also wondering about the landing that you're doing as you run.
What form and style as best you can describe are you using.

Ozzie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Charlie Pendejo said:

Dammit, first musculoskeletal boo-boo (as opposed to e.g. digestive
insult, ooh those fish tacos urrgggh) of the year big enough to curtail
my running. Sore right hamstring. I'm all ears if anyone's got
advice, insight, sympathy, or a good funny insult.

where
-----
It's the lower part down by the knee. I guess that's called
semitendinosus - certainly it feels more like tendon than regular
muscle down there. Been feeling tight there much of the year.
Problems last couple years in *upper* hams, glutes, hips: seem to be OK
there so far (knock wood) thanks to stretching and self-massage.

when
----
Last several miles of Sunday's long run, I felt lower right hamstring
getting tight. A brief burst of quicker running through a wider range
of motion - moderately paced strides - seemed to loosen it up for a
while. Didn't bother me much for 3.5 mi Monday AM run, but rapidly
became an issue Monday PM during downhill (Brooklyn Bridge, pretty
slow) about 4 miles in, so I cut run short. Haven't run since.

how
---
Factors I can think of:

- mileage: last week saw a significant increase (66 after lifetime high
of 55 only attained a few weeks prior)... OTOH prior week was rest, so
fortnightly mileage was 66+42=108, similar to previous couple weeks
55+55=110. And almost entirely easy pace.

- flexibility: I'm an uptight mofo by nature, been religiously
stretching including hams. BUT, feels like that's doing a lot more for
mid-upper part of the thigh than the tendonous lower part. Dunno if
there are other stretches which might target this area. I do hit that
area with a bit of self-massage via "the stick" and rolling on a rubber
ball. Also, running so many slow miles doesn't put the legs through
much range of motion.

- sleep: wanted to sleep more (than my regular ~7:30-7:45) during last
week's mileage increase but instead got slightly less (say ~7:15) the
last several days - kept waking up early or getting to bed late, no
time for naps.

- core strength:

Hamstring injuries in distance runners are often the result of
poor core-muscle strength, which allow the top of the pelvis to
rotate anteriorly - that is, toward the belly button - thereby
adding tension to the hamstring insertion at the base of the
buttocks. During the extension phase of the stride (when the
knee drives forward and the lower leg is extended), the hamstring
must contract eccentrically (the muscle lengthens) to control the
movement of the tibia, or lower leg. Together, these factors
place a tremendous amount of stress on the hamstring muscle tissue
itself and the connective tissue insertions at either end of the
muscle.

So sayeth "Colleen Glyde Julian, MS" in her _Run Strong_ chapter,
"Boosting Economy Through Lower-Body Strength". Shortly thereafter
Jack Daniels is quoted as saying "the most important muscle groups for
distance runners are in the trunk: abdominals and back. Everything of
importance works from that basic foundation."

And my trunk is too junk-y: haven't been doing anything for my core
aside from attention to posture especially when sitting at work, home,
or on the train. In the past a rowing machine has served me well, and
I should get back to it. I come closer to enjoying it and therefore
doing it regularly than crunches and other such floor exercises.

what
----
After Sun long run I took a cold bath. Since Mon PM run, been icing it
(about 15 min at a time, several times a day at least 2 hours apart)
and taking ibubrofen, not running, and some kind of arnica oil on it
overnight.

I plan to take ibuprofen another day or two, keep icing for a while,
try running 3.5 mi tomorrow (Thu) morning slow with glacial warmup,
start stretching very gently if it's not already hurting. Keep mileage
at about half (~30 mpw) for a week after that if all seems well.

trivia
------
this muscle's commonly called "hamstring" because butchers would hang
slaughtered pigs from it

Ozzie Gontang said:

Using the baseball under the hamstring and moving back and forth
over it to get fascial release [...]

Also of concern for me would be the rolling of the quads.

Thanks Oz. I already use a rubber ball in this fashion for hamstrings
- though the geometries of body, chair, and floor make this easier and
more effective for middle hamstrings and up (including glutes and
hips), less so for the bits just above the knee - and roll my quads
daily with a foam roller. I believe these practices have helped ward
off some other problems but alas not this one.

On 11 Aug 2005 21:39:00 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I already use a rubber ball in this fashion

To replace the ones your missing?

TBR

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."
S**t list: Charlie Bendahoe, TBR imposter

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Charlie Pendejo said:

Ozzie Gontang said:

Using the baseball under the hamstring and moving back and forth
over it to get fascial release [...]

Also of concern for me would be the rolling of the quads.

Thanks Oz. I already use a rubber ball in this fashion for hamstrings
- though the geometries of body, chair, and floor make this easier and
more effective for middle hamstrings and up (including glutes and
hips), less so for the bits just above the knee - and roll my quads
daily with a foam roller. I believe these practices have helped ward
off some other problems but alas not this one.

Charlie,

I would guess that you are not going deep enough or getting the torque
on the fascia to release where it is adhering. The feeling of fascia
letting go is the same feeling as an Indian burn to the wrist.

One reason that after using the foam roller, I go to my trusty 1" PVC.

At times I've gone to sleep on the floor laying on the PVC across my
quads. Idea is to push the toes into the ground which tightens the
quad and then let the quad relax and sink into the foam roller or piece
of PVC. The piece I use is about 16 or 18 inches long.

Good luck. Again, remember this is my folklore and it works for me.
Let me know if it helps you at all.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Ozzie Gontang said:

I would guess that you are not going deep enough or getting the torque
on the fascia to release where it is adhering. The feeling of fascia
letting go is the same feeling as an Indian burn to the wrist.

One reason that after using the foam roller, I go to my trusty 1" PVC.

At times I've gone to sleep on the floor laying on the PVC across my
quads. Idea is to push the toes into the ground which tightens the
quad and then let the quad relax and sink into the foam roller or piece
of PVC.

Hey, thanks for the additional detail - that's very helpful. I've
posted before that I suspect it may benefit me to "graduate" from foam
roller to something harder (I thought rolling pin but PVC sounds
dandy), and your suggestion should give me the additional nudge I
apparently needed.

In the meantime I can also report that Dan's suggestion for the
alternating ice-heat cycles made a huge positive impact. Thanks Dan!

Beyond that, three days off from running and, mostly, the post-run
stretching has also resulted in cramps in each calf on consecutive days
- which leads me to believe my calf cramping issues are primarily a
mechanical not necessarily electrolytic issue: I simply need to stretch
them better. At least I now have fresh anecdotal evidence that if you
can ice a calf very soon after the cramp, it will feel much, much
better in the morning.