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MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
3 March 2004
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8 March 2004
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john
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  1. PRIVATE EYE 5 March - 18 March 2004
    MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS

    The vilification of Dr Andrew Wakefield in recent days has been a side show
    to the important issue of whether the mumps, measles, and rubella triple
    vaccine (MMR) poses a risk to a small sub set of children. But the attacks
    have served a purpose. They have highlighted the need to preserve
    independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one
    rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another for
    the government and drug companies.

    For example, one leading health official responsible for immunisation has
    been working as an expert for the three defendant drug companies in the UK
    MMR court case since July 2002. Yet as far as the Eye can ascertain, she
    has never declared that potential ''conflict''  on any of her research papers.

    Dr Elizabeth Miller, head of immunisation at the government''s Health
    Protection Agency (HPA), last year alone published three papers in the
    Archives of Disease in Childhood directly related to the MMR controversy.
    One suggested that the combined triple live virus does not overload the
    immune system, so there is no need for single vaccines. Two others
    suggested that parents have been more likely to attribute their children's
    autism to MMR since 1998, when Dr Wakefield and his team at the Royal Free
    hospital in north London published their controversial paper.

    Nowhere on Dr Miller's papers does she declare that she is also an expert
    witness for the drug companies GlaxoSmithKline, Aventis Pasteur and Merck.

    Moreover, the Eye has begun trawling through scientific and medical
    journals to examine papers published over the last two years by other
    defendant drug company experts. So far we have not found a single
    declaration on any paper that the author also acts as an expert for the
    defendant drug companies - even though at least two of the experts (Dr
    Diane Griffin, an American, and Professor Volker ter Meulen, a German),
    have produced research papers directly associated with vaccination.

    Unlike in the case of Dr Wakefield, there have been no screaming headlines
    attacking their credibility or honesty; no demands for an inquiry by the
    General Medical Council; no snipes at their ''fatally flawed'' research.

    Instead, such authors continue to enjoy the support of government and big
    business. By contrast, Dr Wakefield only has the support of harrassed
    parents who believe their children were damaged by MMR, and, until
    recently, the impoverished Legal Services Commission - hardly powerful or
    influential.

    Dr Miller maintains that neither she nor her department was paid by the
    three pharmaceutical companies for the detailed and lengthy report she
    submitted on their behalf to the court last June. She prepared their
    evidence in her own time, her department says, and did not declare it on
    any papers because there was no financial interest.

    Nevertheless, it is known that money from those companies finds its way
    into the agency, formerly the Public Health Laboratory Service, through
    other research channels. In a recent annual report, Dr Miller listed five
    ''non-personal'' interests - ie payments which benefited her department
    rather than herself. Two of the companies featured were MMR defendants.

    The rules on conflict are weak, open to interpretation and generally not
    enforced - so should any criticism not be dished out in equal measure? As
    one leading journal states ''examples of potentially conflicting interests
    that should be disclosed include relationships that might detract from an
    author's objectivity in presentation of study results and interests whose
    value would be enhanced by the results presented.''

    How can Sir Liam Donaldson, chief medical officer, and his deputy
    responsible for immunisation, Dr David Salisbury, justify their attacks on
    Dr Wakefield for non-disclosure of an interest when their own staff appear
    equally compromised? No doubt Dr Miller sought clearance before agreeing to
    act for the defendant drug companies. But every time she now opens her
    mouth the question arises: Is she speaking from the ''impartial ''view of
    the health department, open to all new research that comes to its
    attention; or for that of the defendant drug companies? As Eye readers will
    recall, Dr Miller also conducted the first ever trial of MMR among 10,000
    children before its introduction in the UK nationwide.

    It is clear the medical establishment and ministers had been waiting for an
    opportunity to attempt to discredit Dr Wakefield. Thus they seized on the
    Sunday Times's resurrection of a debate about conflict which emerged in the
    Lancet six years ago when Dr Wakefield published his controversial 1998
    study.

    Shortly after publication the Lancet carried a letter from Dr Wakefield on
    behalf of all the authors in response to suggestions that there may have
    been ''litigation bias'' in their paper. It said that Dr Wakefield had
    agreed quite separately to evaluate a small number of children on behalf of
    the Legal Aid Board.  ''These children have all been seen expressly on the
    basis that they were referred through the normal channels (eg. GP, child
    psychiatrist or community paediatritican) on the merits of their symptoms.''

    Nothing about that ''conflict'' has changed but Lancet editor Richard
    Horton seemed to panic in the face of more serious - and completely
    unsubstantiated - allegations from the Sunday Times about subjecting the
    children to invasive procedures without ethical approval and questions
    about the Lancet's role in the affair - allegations the newspaper was
    forced to ditch.

    Interestingly, Horton's condemnation of the Royal Free paper as ''fatally
    flawed'' ( which gave oxygen to the Sunday Times ''scoop''😉 was dropped by
    the time the Lancet published its statement about the affair the following
    week. It stated that it was ''regretful'' that the Lancet had not been made
    aware that the parallel legal aid had not been disclosed as it should have
    been '' because it would have been material to our decision-making about
    the paper's suitability, credibility and validity for publication''. It did
    not withdraw the paper or say it was fatally damaged.

    Of course the issue of potential conflicts of interest - whether by Dr
    Wakefield or those acting as experts for the defendant drug companies -
    only flags up the possibility of research flawed by bias.  Before a study
    can be ''fatally flawed'', as health chiefs maintain Dr Wakefield's is, the
    research itself must be shown to be faulty.

    Aside from the fact that even Horton accepts that the Royal Free team
    identified a new syndrome suffered by children with gut disease and autism
    ( something so scientifically and medically significant, one might think it
    worthy of investment and further investigation), that original paper is now
    the equivalent of scientific chip wrappings. Science has moved on; and the
    Royal Free team  has published more papers detailing the unique pattern of
    disease in these children's guts.

    In both the UK and the US, meanwhile, measles virus, some of it vaccine
    strain, has now been found at the site of inflammation in the guts, in the
    blood and in the spinal fluid of some autistic children but not in
    ''normal'' children. Separate studies at Utah State University have found
    that some autistic children have auto-antibodies which are attacking the
    protein sheath that protects the nerve and brain in those children,
    researchers found a higher level of measles virus antibodies and an
    ''unusual MMR'' antibody, whereas their response to other vaccines did not
    differ between autistic and normal children.

    None of this proves causation or a link; but combined they do provide a
    mechanism for brain damage and one potential trigger that might lead to
    autism. And that surely needs further investigation.

    Last week, while some newspapers and the medical establishment queued up to
    kick Dr Wakefield, a new US study of children defined as autistic by the US
    department of education and the biological surveillance summaries of the
    Center for Disease Control found ''a biological plausibility and
    epidemiological evidence showing a direct relationship between... measles
    containing vaccines and serious neurological disorders''. It also found a
    relationship between mercury containing vaccines and neurological
    disorders, the subject of litigation in the US. At the top of the study the
    authors, Dr Mark Geier and David Geier, both declare a potential conflict
    of interest in that they have been expert witnesses or consultants in areas
    involving adverse reactions to vaccines in civil litigation.

    In May last year Dr Miller - in her role as head of immunisation at the
    HPA, rather than as an expert for the drug companies - was critical of the
    Geiers' earlier work. As indeed was Britain's Committee on Safety of
    Medicines, which found ''serious methodological'' flaws. But as the Daily
    Mail and other newspapers reported last week, that committee and the Joint
    Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is packed with experts who either
    have shares in the defendant drug companies, receive funding for research
    from them or are paid advisers to them.

    As the Eye reported in 2002, three of the members who sat on the Medical
    Research Council's review of the ten-fold rise in autism were advisers to
    the defendant drug companies. Even the chair had shares in one of the
    companies.

    The point is that potential conflicts of interest are common in medical and
    scientific research and development and Dr Wakefield's is but a puff in the
    wind. Ninety percent of research depends on big business and the
    pharmaceutical companies - and this is set to rise. The big companies
    already have a direct line to the prime minister through the Pharmaceutical
    Industry Competitive Task Force (PICTF), which Tony Blair set up after a
    meeting with the heads of AstraZeneca, GlaxoWellcome and SmithKlineBeecham.

    The companies have already stated that they see the NHS as a huge
    unexploited resource. And the government's own reforming NHS Plan 2000
    states that; ''The pharmaceutical industry is a UK success story, employing
    over 60,000 skilled workers and maintaining an annual trade surplus of over
    £2 billion. The industry is also the UK's leading investor in research and
    development. The NHS has a major role to play in ensuring that the UK
    remains an attractive base for the industry.''

    Hence it has set about removing barriers to big business in the drug
    industry, encouraging hospitals and universities to enter into joint
    ventures and create mini-companies to exploit their research. They will
    inevitably become even more dependant on drug company influence - and even
    more at risk of serious conflicts of interest.  Yet no one is shouting
    about that.

  2. "john" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    PRIVATE EYE 5 March - 18 March 2004
    MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS

    The vilification of Dr Andrew Wakefield in recent days has been a side


    show

    Quoted message said:

    to the important issue of whether the mumps, measles, and rubella triple
    vaccine (MMR) poses a risk to a small sub set of children.

    Well, boo-hoo. Sniff...sniff..too bad...

    The science minded pro-vacs have been telling the anti-vac thimersal whiner
    know-nothing liars that they have been creating just this real problem. Now
    that the shoe is on the other foot, the liars are whining.

    Well, boo-hoo. Sniff..sniff..too bad...

    But the attacks

    Quoted message said:

    have served a purpose.

    Yes, the purpose is to show that the anti-vacs are a pack of liars who have
    derailed proper investigation into the real causes of autism for year. Now
    that we can move on from their fearmongering and [censored], they want to
    whine that they ahve been caught.

    They have highlighted the need to preserve

    Quoted message said:

    independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one
    rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another for
    the government and drug companies.

    Hogwash. There has always been one rule, Wakefield has just wanted to hide
    his conflict so he can make the big bucks testifying.

    Quoted message said:

    For example, one leading health official responsible for immunisation has
    been working as an expert for the three defendant drug companies in the UK
    MMR court case since July 2002. Yet as far as the Eye can ascertain, she
    has never declared that potential ''conflict'' on any of her research


    papers.

    Quoted message said:


    Dr Elizabeth Miller, head of immunisation at the government''s Health
    Protection Agency (HPA), last year alone published three papers

    You mean this one?

    Semin Pediatr Infect Dis. 2003 Jul;14(3):199-206. Related Articles, Links

    Measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and the development of autism.

    Miller E.

    Immunisation Division, Public Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale
    Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK. [email hidden]

    snip---

    Publication Types:
    Review
    Review, Tutorial

    PMID: 12913832 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    It is a review, dummy, and not original research like Wakefield claimed he
    did.

    And this one?

    Arch Dis Child. 2003 Mar;88(3):222-3. Related Articles, Links

    Bacterial infections, immune overload, and MMR vaccine. Measles, mumps, and
    rubella.

    Miller E, Andrews N, Waight P, Taylor B.

    Immunisation Division, Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre, Public
    Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK.
    [email hidden]

    Combined measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine did not increase the risk
    of hospitalisation with invasive bacterial infection in the three months
    after vaccination; rather there was a protective effect. These results
    provide no support for the concept of "immunological overload" induced by
    multiple antigen vaccinations, nor calls for single antigen vaccines.

    PMID: 12598383 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    and this one?

    Arch Dis Child. 2002 Dec;87(6):493-4. Related Articles, Links

    Recall bias, MMR, and autism.

    Andrews N, Miller E, Taylor B, Lingam R, Simmons A, Stowe J, Waight P.

    Statistics Unit, Public Health Laboratory Service, 61 Colindale Avenue,
    London NW9 5EQ, UK.

    Parents of autistic children with regressive symptoms who were diagnosed
    after the publicity alleging a link with measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR)
    vaccine tended to recall the onset as shortly after MMR more often than
    parents of similar children who were diagnosed prior to the publicity. This
    is consistent with the recall bias expected under such circumstances.

    PMID: 12456546 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    You see, you have it backwards...

    She is retained as an expert witness because she researches and
    publishes..not vice versa....

    in the

    Quoted message said:

    Archives of Disease in Childhood directly related to the MMR controversy.
    One suggested that the combined triple live virus does not overload the
    immune system,

    That is correct, it does not.

    so there is no need for single vaccines. Two others

    Quoted message said:

    suggested that parents have been more likely to attribute their children's
    autism to MMR since 1998, when Dr Wakefield and his team at the Royal Free
    hospital in north London published their controversial paper.

    Seems logical to me.

    Quoted message said:


    Nowhere on Dr Miller's papers does she declare that she is also an expert
    witness for the drug companies GlaxoSmithKline, Aventis Pasteur and Merck.

    I wonder if the writer of this *article* bothered to check the original
    publications.

    Quoted message said:

    Moreover, the Eye has begun trawling through scientific and medical
    journals to examine papers published over the last two years by other
    defendant drug company experts. So far we have not found a single
    declaration on any paper that the author also acts as an expert for the
    defendant drug companies - even though at least two of the experts (Dr
    Diane Griffin, an American, and Professor Volker ter Meulen, a German),
    have produced research papers directly associated with vaccination.

    They are retained to be experts because they do research. Do the lawyers
    subsidize the research? If so, you have a similar situation with Wakefiled.
    If not, stop whining.

    Quoted message said:

    Unlike in the case of Dr Wakefield, there have been no screaming headlines
    attacking their credibility or honesty; no demands for an inquiry by the
    General Medical Council; no snipes at their ''fatally flawed'' research.

    [censored]. This type of "non-existent" blather has been published regularly
    for years. It is one of the ways anti-vac liars undermine parental
    confidence.

    Quoted message said:

    Instead, such authors continue to enjoy the support of government and big
    business. By contrast, Dr Wakefield only has the support of harrassed
    parents who believe their children were damaged by MMR, and, until
    recently, the impoverished Legal Services Commission - hardly powerful or
    influential.

    Well, we know that this is not true. he also had the support of the
    attorneys in performing his research and stood to make big Euros, Pounds and
    bucks testifying.

    Quoted message said:

    Dr Miller maintains that neither she nor her department was paid by the
    three pharmaceutical companies for the detailed and lengthy report she
    submitted on their behalf to the court last June. She prepared their
    evidence in her own time, her department says, and did not declare it on
    any papers because there was no financial interest.

    So, why is she being vilified by the anti-vac liars? Because she was right
    all along and they cannot stand it.

    Quoted message said:

    Nevertheless, it is known that money from those companies finds its way
    into the agency, formerly the Public Health Laboratory Service, through
    other research channels. In a recent annual report, Dr Miller listed five
    ''non-personal'' interests - ie payments which benefited her department
    rather than herself. Two of the companies featured were MMR defendants.

    So, she did not recevie any money for her services, but they try to smear
    her by implication.

    Quoted message said:

    The rules on conflict are weak, open to interpretation and generally not
    enforced - so should any criticism not be dished out in equal measure? As
    one leading journal states ''examples of potentially conflicting interests
    that should be disclosed include relationships that might detract from an
    author's objectivity in presentation of study results and interests whose
    value would be enhanced by the results presented.''

    How can Sir Liam Donaldson, chief medical officer, and his deputy
    responsible for immunisation, Dr David Salisbury, justify their attacks on
    Dr Wakefield for non-disclosure of an interest when their own staff appear
    equally compromised?

    because kids became sick and died due to Wakefield's actions? Seems right to
    me.

    No doubt Dr Miller sought clearance before agreeing to

    Quoted message said:

    act for the defendant drug companies. But every time she now opens her
    mouth the question arises: Is she speaking from the ''impartial ''view of
    the health department, open to all new research that comes to its
    attention; or for that of the defendant drug companies? As Eye readers


    will

    Quoted message said:

    recall, Dr Miller also conducted the first ever trial of MMR among 10,000
    children before its introduction in the UK nationwide.

    see, more smear by innuendo.

    Quoted message said:

    It is clear the medical establishment and ministers had been waiting for


    an

    Quoted message said:

    opportunity to attempt to discredit Dr Wakefield. Thus they seized on the
    Sunday Times's resurrection of a debate about conflict which emerged in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    Lancet six years ago when Dr Wakefield published his controversial 1998
    study.

    Wrong. Six years ago his financial ties to the attorneys who were
    prosecuting these bogus claims were unknown.

    sniop....

  3. "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for
    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of
    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force
    --
    jon
    ________
    keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work

  4. "Mark Probert-March 3, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They have highlighted the need to preserve
    independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one
    rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the government and drug companies.


    It is a review, dummy, and not original research like Wakefield claimed he
    did.

    So what? Gubmnt officials and review article authors can have
    conflicts, but not research article authors?

    Quoted message said:

    She is retained as an expert witness because she researches and
    publishes..not vice versa....

    And that makes her conflicts ok?

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for
    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of
    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
    were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  6. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS
    From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
    Date: 3/3/2004 7:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for
    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of
    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right.

    Yes.

    <diversion snipped>

    Jan

  7. "Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mark Probert-March 3, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]> wrote

    (...)

    Quoted message said:

    So what? Gubmnt officials and review article authors can have
    conflicts, but not research article authors?

    When I coach soccer, I have my own agenda, including teaching soccer skills,
    making sure the children enjoy themselves, learn soccer and sportsmanship,
    and winning games. There is nothing we do without our own agenda.

    Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist
    who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same
    thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in most of
    them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies.

    That is true of university researchers and government authors.

    I don't know what "Gubmnt" is, however. Maybe you need to fix your
    computer's spell check function (not saying that mine works well ;-) ),

    (...)

  8. "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for
    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity


    of

    Quoted message said:

    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    Who said differently? Is Strawman your favorite character in the Wizard of
    Oz?

  9. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS
    From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
    Date: 3/3/2004 7:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the


    responsiblity of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right.

    Yes.

    <diversion snipped>

    You snipped the wrong diversion. Jon was changing the subject.

  10. "Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mark Probert-March 3, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    They have highlighted the need to preserve
    independent medical research - and reminded the public that there is one
    rule for an off-message messenger like Dr Wakefield and quite another


    for

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the government and drug companies.


    It is a review, dummy, and not original research like Wakefield claimed he
    did.

    So what? Gubmnt officials and review article authors can have
    conflicts, but not research article authors?

    Quoted message said:

    She is retained as an expert witness because she researches and
    publishes..not vice versa....

    And that makes her conflicts ok?

    Aren't you a fan of temporal association as definitive causality? oops.

    Research, results, then money. Wakefield - money, then research, then results.

    js

  11. "David Wright" wrote

    Quoted message said:
    jon said:

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues of
    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their
    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people
    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    now go away, grow up and only come back when you have something adult to
    offer to the debate

    --
    jon
    ________
    keep claude happy and snip the garbage to make it work

  12. "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "David Wright" wrote

    Quoted message said:
    jon said:

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues


    of

    Quoted message said:

    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their
    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting


    people

    Quoted message said:

    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    Equally obvious is the fact that you changed the subject of this thread, and
    I wonder why?

  13. "jon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mark Probert shared his opinions
    and so did "john"

    however the issue remains one of choice for the parents of the children
    concerned.

    they have to have the authority to make the descision of what is best for
    their child and they are the ones who have to live with the responsiblity of
    that and the consequaences of their descsions.

    OK- so when the herd immunity drops due to underimmunization and a kid
    who either could not recive the vacine or did not respond to it gets
    the disease how do you propose we make the parents of those
    unimmunized kids take responsibility for their decisions?

    Quoted message said:

    no one else has the right to decide for them.

    The decisions affects people that the parent does not have the right
    to make decisions for.

    Quoted message said:

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    It is also the place of the government to protect.

    --
    CBI, MD

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "David Wright" wrote

    Quoted message said:
    jon said:

    it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues of
    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their
    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people
    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    Oh, it's *obvious*, is it? Well, I was merely pointing out the
    silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute
    right to decide everything about their children's upbringing.

    They don't have the right to kill a disobedient child (even though
    it's in the Bible) or lock it in a closet and starve it nearly to
    death. (If you think they do have this right, then it should be
    done to you immediately, but I'll assume you don't think so.)

    So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end?
    Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal
    diseases comes perilously close to child abuse.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
    were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  15. "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist
    who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same
    thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in most


    of

    Quoted message said:

    them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies.

    Gould was an example an example of an academic whose
    personal ideology (Marxism) and egotism were big biases
    in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for
    various reasons.

  16. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: MMR INTERESTING CONFLICTS
    From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
    Date: 3/4/2004 6:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "David Wright" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    jon wrote:
    >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    >provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues of
    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their
    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people
    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    Oh, it's *obvious*, is it? Well, I was merely pointing out the
    silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute
    right to decide everything about their children's upbringing.

    Nothing silly about it.

    <snip diversion nonsense>

    Quoted message said:

    So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end?
    Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal
    diseases comes perilously close to child abuse.

    Of course. OMMV. It is their child and they indeed do have the right to may
    that decision.

    Jan

  17. "Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an


    evolutionist

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same
    thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in


    most

    Quoted message said:

    of

    Quoted message said:

    them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies.

    Gould was an example an example of an academic whose
    personal ideology (Marxism) and egotism were big biases
    in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for
    various reasons.

    Here is complete list of people whose personal biases did not affect his/her
    work:

    <begin list>
    <end list>

    Can you find some his book chapters and show how his supposed Marxism
    affected his work?

    I won't argue about his ego. It was big.

    Nothing the less, he was correct about how personal bias affects books and
    other writings. In fact, you can see it as you read his books -- as his
    experiences (age) affects what he writes about and how he writes it. And you
    can't miss his big ego, either.

    Jeff

  18. Quoted message said:

    "Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Although he didn't say it the same way, Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist
    who wrote several great books on science, has said pretty much the same
    thing. In fact, this looms large in two of his books (and appears in most


    of

    Quoted message said:

    them): Wonderful Life and Eight Little Piggies.

    Gould was an example an example of an academic whose
    personal ideology (Marxism) and egotism were big biases
    in his work. A lot of people had low opinions of him for
    various reasons.

    This is a sterling example of Roger's lack of integrity. Calling Gould an
    academic is as much a slur as calling Michael Jordan an athlete. Calling him a
    marxist is really Roger's way of saying that Gould's work was a bit over his
    head.

  19. [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "David Wright" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    jon wrote:
    >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    >provide, not dictate and force

    You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able to
    dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss issues of
    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for their
    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting people
    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    Oh, it's *obvious*, is it? Well, I was merely pointing out the
    silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute
    right to decide everything about their children's upbringing.

    They don't have the right to kill a disobedient child (even though
    it's in the Bible) or lock it in a closet and starve it nearly to
    death. (If you think they do have this right, then it should be
    done to you immediately, but I'll assume you don't think so.)

    So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end?
    Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal
    diseases comes perilously close to child abuse.

    Since it only comes close, can I presume that you don't feel it
    crosses the line into child abuse?

    And if it doesn't cross that line, doesn't that make it something that
    should be left to the discretion of the parents? Doesn't that mean
    that it is, in fact "the place of the government and health services
    to educate and provide, not dictate and force"?

  20. "abacus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (David Wright) wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jon said:

    "David Wright" wrote
    > jon wrote:
    > >it is the place of the government and health services to educate and
    > >provide, not dictate and force
    >
    > You're right. If you feel like driving down the other side of the
    > road from everyone else, or firing off a gun in random directions
    > in the middle of a crowded auditorium, no government should be able


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > dictate your behavior. They should just educate and provide.

    dont be a [censored] head, you are using ridiculous arguments to discuss


    issues of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    parents having the right to decide what is the best healthcare for


    their

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    children, OBVIOUSLY driving on the wrong side of the road or shooting


    people

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    is not something you should have the freedom to decide about.

    Oh, it's *obvious*, is it? Well, I was merely pointing out the
    silliness of your implicit claim that parents have an absolute
    right to decide everything about their children's upbringing.

    They don't have the right to kill a disobedient child (even though
    it's in the Bible) or lock it in a closet and starve it nearly to
    death. (If you think they do have this right, then it should be
    done to you immediately, but I'll assume you don't think so.)

    So the question then becomes: where does parental discretion end?
    Me, I'd argue that *not* vaccinating children for potentially fatal
    diseases comes perilously close to child abuse.

    Since it only comes close, can I presume that you don't feel it
    crosses the line into child abuse?

    And if it doesn't cross that line, doesn't that make it something that
    should be left to the discretion of the parents? Doesn't that mean
    that it is, in fact "the place of the government and health services
    to educate and provide, not dictate and force"?

    I think it crosses the line into child neglect.

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