Ascorbate results?

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php

Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart Technology
after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value of
vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart attack

on

Quoted message said:

March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In December

of

Quoted message said:

2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol 242

and

Quoted message said:

LDL Cholesterol 163.

Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came in,

"

Quoted message said:

To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped

from

Quoted message said:

246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on 2
jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C as ascorbic acid."

Anth

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not told
whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements containing
nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative" medicine,
is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much more
sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Waiting for this paper to be released (if it ever will be)

Trial on Lp(a) using 6000 mg Vitamin C, 6000 mg Lysine & 800 IU Vitamin E

Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php

Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart

Technology

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value of
vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart attack

on

Quoted message said:

March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In December

of

Quoted message said:

2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol 242

and

Quoted message said:

LDL Cholesterol 163.

Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came

in,

Quoted message said:

"

Quoted message said:

To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped

from

Quoted message said:

246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on 2
jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C as ascorbic acid."

Anth

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not told
whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements

containing

Quoted message said:

nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative"

medicine,

Quoted message said:

is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much more
sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/6/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php

Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart Technology
after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value of
vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart attack

on

Quoted message said:

March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In December

of

Quoted message said:

2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol 242

and

Quoted message said:

LDL Cholesterol 163.

Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came in,

"

Quoted message said:

To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped

from

Quoted message said:

246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on 2
jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C as ascorbic acid."

Anth

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not told
whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements containing
nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative" medicine,
is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much more
sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

You have just seen an example of why alternative medicine just keeps growing.

Peter, doesn't know it, but people are fed up with this kind of garbage.

Sophisticated form=denial of REAL diseases.

Jan

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php

Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart Technology
after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value of
vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart attack

on

Quoted message said:

March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In December

of

Quoted message said:

2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol 242

and

Quoted message said:

LDL Cholesterol 163.

Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came in,

"

Quoted message said:

To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped

from

Quoted message said:

246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on 2
jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C as ascorbic acid."

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not told
whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements containing
nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative" medicine,
is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much more
sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

You have just seen an example of why alternative medicine just keeps growing.

Yes, testimonials are a great marketing tool.

Quoted message said:

Peter, doesn't know it, but people are fed up with this kind of garbage.

Yes, people hate garbage like "there are no simple cures for bad diseases".

Quoted message said:

Sophisticated form=denial of REAL diseases.

Hey, all they have to do is show that diet and exercise did not contribute
to his improvement: ie it was all vitamin c and "Tower Heart Technology",
or that these substances had anything to do with it.

Why is demanding evidence of this a bad thing or "garbage"? How is it
suppression or "keepin' the alt man down"?

Why does alternative medicine even need to be alternative? Just fund a
few studies which show it really works and it's no longer alternative.

Oh yeah, demanding "substantial" or "compelling" evidence is somehow wrong.

Quoted message said:

From: Jojo [email hidden]

Go back and hang out out the atheist ng.

Jan

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/6/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php

Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart

Technology

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart

attack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In

December

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol

242

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

LDL Cholesterol 163.

Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came

in,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"

Quoted message said:

To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped

from

Quoted message said:

246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on

2

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C as ascorbic acid."

Anth

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not

told

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements

containing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative"

medicine,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

You have just seen an example of why alternative medicine just keeps

growing.

Studies show that people will exert their right to try out treatments that
have a very small chance of working. That's fine. That is their
prerogative and I am not targeting them, or even you, except when you defend
the indefensible or are being more than usually offensive..

I do complain about those peddling junk medicines. I think they know
exactly what they are doing when they make up or exploit testimonial and
anecdotal evidence. They are following a long and illustrious line of
snake oil salesmen.

That is why the number of persons making a living out of offering unproven,
dubious, experimental and even ridiculous remedies to the public is indeed
"growing". by the day.

Admit it. How can you know what to trust when any old nonsense accumulates
its own encrustation of testimonial?

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Peter, doesn't know it, but people are fed up with this kind of garbage.

Sophisticated form=denial of REAL diseases.

Jan

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

From: Jojo [email hidden]

Go back and hang out out the atheist ng.

But this is so much more fun.

- - - -

Hey, all they have to do is show that diet and exercise did not contribute
to his improvement: ie it was all vitamin c and "Tower Heart Technology",
or that these substances had anything to do with it.

Why is demanding evidence of this a bad thing or "garbage"? How is it
suppression or "keepin' the alt man down"?

Why does alternative medicine even need to be alternative? Just fund a
few studies which show it really works and it's no longer alternative.

<< That is why the number of persons making a living out of offering unproven,
dubious, experimental and even ridiculous remedies to the public is indeed
"growing". by the day. >>

And what part of your living do you make by posting the information that you
do?

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< That is why the number of persons making a living out of offering

unproven,

Quoted message said:

dubious, experimental and even ridiculous remedies to the public is

indeed

Quoted message said:

"growing". by the day. >>

And what part of your living do you make by posting the information that

you

Quoted message said:

do?

Oh, come on! Even Ilena doesn't truly believe it when she makes such
accusations. It's part of the rhetoric: a ploy to avoid having to look at,
and respond to the facts.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/6/2004 11:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/6/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

<[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb102812.php
>
> Cook, declined the artificial statin in mid-April of 2002 following
> emergency triple bypass surgery. Instead, he began Tower Heart

Technology

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> after watching a video of Nobelist Linus Pauling explaining the value

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> vitamin C for cardiovascular disease. William had his first heart

attack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on
> March 17, 2002 and a second 10 days later on March 27, 2002. In

December

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of
> 2001 prior to his heart attacks, Bill's numbers had been Cholesterol

242

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and
> LDL Cholesterol 163.
>
> Cook and long-time friend Sally Jewell had both worried about their
> decision, but they became jubilant after the blood tests results came

in,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"
> To our wonderment and surprise, in 8 months his cholesterol had dropped
from
> 246 to 164 and his LDL cholesterol had dropped from 163 to 101, all on

2

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> jars of Tower Heart Technology per month, plus 2,000 mg. additional
vitamin
> C as ascorbic acid."
>
>
> Anth

A good example of the problem with anecdote/testimonial. We are not

told

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

whether he followed the advice regarding diet and exercise that all such
patients are given. We are left uncertain whether supplements

containing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nicotinic acid might also have been taken.

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative"

medicine,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sophisticated form.

Peter Moran

You have just seen an example of why alternative medicine just keeps

growing.

Studies show that people will exert their right to try out treatments that
have a very small chance of working

Why is there a need to do that??

Quoted message said:

That's fine. That is their
prerogative and I am not targeting them, or even you, except when you defend

the indefensible or are being more than usually offensive..

Quoted message said:

The indefensible is an opinion.

I am sorry that being straight forward is listed under *offensive*.

Quoted message said:

I do complain about those peddling junk medicines

Everyone does, except what is junk is also an opinion.

You see, with all the evidence and studies we have of ill effects of certain
things, and no proof of them ever being safe, yet endorsed by organized
medicine and dentistry is indeed junk.

Quoted message said:

I think they know
exactly what they are doing when they make up or exploit testimonial and
anecdotal evidence.

They are following a long and illustrious line of snake oil salesmen.

There are indeed dishonest people in all professions.

We see many here each day.

Quoted message said:

That is why the number of persons making a living out of offering unproven,
dubious, experimental and even ridiculous remedies to the public is indeed

"growing". by the day.

Quoted message said:

Umm, a bit of twisting there. Alternative medicine keeps growing, and you gave
us one example of why.

Quoted message said:

Admit it. How can you know what to trust when any old nonsense accumulates

its own encrustation of testimonial?

First you talk with a person who has actual experience.

Next, you talk with another person with actual experience.

You really don't need to know what color their under pants are, stick with the
symptoms, the treatment that had RESULTS.

Then do your own research.

You don't need every last detail.

Lastly, you don't listen to the nonsense put forth by ANY organized medicine
memeber on this newsgroup.

WORD OF MOUTH will beat your so called *sophisticated form*.

Of which only 38% has ever been proven.

People are NOT stupid.

A collect of testimonies and anecdotes are why studies are done.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/7/2004 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< That is why the number of persons making a living out of offering

unproven,

Quoted message said:

dubious, experimental and even ridiculous remedies to the public is

indeed

Quoted message said:

"growing". by the day. >>

And what part of your living do you make by posting the information that

you

Quoted message said:

do?

Oh, come on! Even Ilena

IIena is not the subject.

Quoted message said:

doesn't truly believe it when she makes such
accusations. It's part of the rhetoric: a ploy to avoid having to look at,
and respond to the facts.

Ah ah Peter Moran, you looked at the FACT that Dr Wilson REPEATED COMMITTED
FRAUD, and you saw nothing wrong. In fact you DEFENDED him, for months on end.

It takes real raw nerve for you to make such statements.

Which is another reason for turning to alt. medicine.

Jan

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative" medicine,
is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much more
sophisticated form.

True, but very sophisticated errors can creep in.
The current consensus is that "money" is the big
major super-source of these hyper-sophisticated
and extremely convoluted errors.

As a whole, we all can see past that, and we don't
want to put all our eggs in one basket, that's
why you will see so many chiropractitioners, herbalists
and other alties doing rather well in any US town...

"soft-eng" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Testimonial/ anecdote, as wholeheartedly endorsed by "alternative"

medicine,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is not a very effective instrument for the advancement of medical
knowledge. Medicine does make use of anecdotal data, but in a much

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sophisticated form.

True, but very sophisticated errors can creep in.
The current consensus is that "money" is the big
major super-source of these hyper-sophisticated
and extremely convoluted errors.

There is NO current consensus, except that this is pure parnoid drivel.

Quoted message said:

As a whole, we all can see past that, and we don't
want to put all our eggs in one basket, that's
why you will see so many chiropractitioners, herbalists
and other alties doing rather well in any US town...

Ask P.T. Barnum why.

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Oh, come on! Even Ilena doesn't truly believe it when she makes such
accusations. It's part of the rhetoric: a ploy to avoid having to look at,
and respond to the facts.

Peter, I hardly know who you are ...

But you are no authority to speak for me in any way whatsoever ... are
you a member of Barrett's Healthfraud list also?

"Ilena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Oh, come on! Even Ilena doesn't truly believe it when she makes such
accusations. It's part of the rhetoric: a ploy to avoid having to look

at,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and respond to the facts.

Peter, I hardly know who you are ...

Which makes my case. You and others often make such allegations about
strangers on the Internet, instead of bothering to deal with what they say.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Ascorbate results?
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 2/8/2004 12:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"Ilena" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news

Quoted message said:

Oh, come on! Even Ilena doesn't truly believe it when she makes such
accusations. It's part of the rhetoric: a ploy to avoid having to look

at,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and respond to the facts.

Peter, I hardly know who you are ...

Which makes my case.

Your case comes from the *gang*, who are constantly belittling.

You don't know what IIena thinks, nor is it a rhetoric ploy.

We do know what you think, as you have proven it. You deny fraud even when the
doctor did it repeatedly and deliberately and remains on staff.

Jan

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter, I hardly know who you are ...

Are you one of Barrett's HealthFrauds, you failed to answer my question.