Acupuncture

Quoted message said:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/21/2004 7:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so accredited
are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor
and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum
treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are
succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they
need real medical care.

Satan's Minion said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

<snip>

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 6:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Satan's Minion, Jan Drew wrote:

Poor Andrew Kingoff.

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

No, that is a lie, as is typical from you.

What I wrote was:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so accredited
are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor
and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum
treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are
succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they
need real medical care.

Quoted message said:

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

If not, feel free to explain.

Then proceed to tell us how you are ilsa, educator who has a special interest
in acupuncture.

That will do quite nicely for more lies.

Jan

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
care.

Quoted message said:

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Nope. One can defend someone, or even generally agree with someone,
without accepting every single viewpoint that person holds. For example, I
happen to agree with much of what educational critic Alfie Kohn says, but I
think his views on ADHD are completely wrong (in that they're at odds with
the results of most contemporary research). But most of what he says
doesn't logically depend on his ideas about ADHD, so I don't toss out the
baby with the bathwater. Or take Linus Pauling: the fact that he was
demonstrably wrong about the role of vitamin C in infectious disease and
cancer in no way invalidates his Nobel-winning work on the nature of
chemical bonds.

One of the key principles of the scientific method, indeed of intellectual
inquiry in general, is that ideas are to be evaluated on their own merits,
independently of who holds them. And that means without consideration of
any prior achievements, good or bad, on the part of the people who propound
them. To use an exaggerated example, the fact that Osama bin Laden
believes that 2+2=4 in no way negates that fact that 2+2 *does* equal 4.
Nor does the fact that Karry Mullis invented the polymerase chain reaction
technique for identifying sequences of DNA entitle his beliefs that HIV
doesn't cause AIDS to special treatment. Science deals with those
propositions that are either true for everybody or true for nobody.

The notion that an individual is either right about everything or wrong
about everything with no intermediate possibilities represents an extremely
childish and rigid form of pseudo-reasoning. It bears no correspondence to
reality at all.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: Eric Bohlman [email hidden]
Date: 1/22/2004 3:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
care.

Quoted message said:

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Umm, I was talking to Andrew.

Reading further :

The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment.
Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health
and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge
Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that acupuncture is
effective against any disease.
Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of
expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other
psychologic mechanisms.
The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings,
Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture
treatment,
Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.
Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a
knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest [19].

The NCHAF has nothing but opinion.

That opinion is the same for all alternative medicine.

Quack Barrett has only references that agree with him.

Read one site, you have read them all.

They aren't against fraud, they overlook any fraud within convenntional
medicine.

Neither are they trying to protect the public.

Their aim is to stop all alternative, and to state that no alt. practitioner
can be trusted.

IOW's they are full of [censored].

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 6:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Satan's Minion, Jan Drew wrote:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

Quoted message said:

What I wrote was:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

Quoted message said:

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

If not, feel free to explain.

Quoted message said:

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

Quoted message said:

Then proceed to tell us how you are ilsa, educator who has a special interest
in acupuncture.

I am fine, Jan, and how are you this enchanted evening?

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
care.

Quoted message said:

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Nope. One can defend someone, or even generally agree with someone,
without accepting every single viewpoint that person holds.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

The notion that an individual is either right about everything or wrong

about everything with no intermediate possibilities represents an extremely
childish and rigid form of pseudo-reasoning.

Quoted message said:

It bears no correspondence to reality at all.

Thank you, Eric. Jan is actually a very strong proponent of acupuncture and
yet uses Barrett's *public* statements on that as fodder against me. On top of
that, she has an identity crisis where I am concerned and with Andrew as well.
She has accused him of being many other posters, including her own "atheist PhD
brother".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: Eric Bohlman [email hidden]
Date: 1/22/2004 3:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
care.

>That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Umm, I was talking to Andrew.

No, you were posting on an unmoderated, public, usenet forum and you were
replying to me, Ilsa, whom you have claimed to killfile.

Quoted message said:

Reading further :

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/#nccam

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: Eric Bohlman [email hidden]
Date: 1/22/2004 3:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html
>
> Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
> accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
> play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
> host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
> hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
> exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
> care.
>
>>That will do quite nicely, Jan.
>
> For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Umm, I was talking to Andrew.

No, you were posting on an unmoderated, public, usenet forum and you were
replying to me, Ilsa, whom you have claimed to killfile.

No, I am talking to Andrew Kingoff (Liar/fake ilsa) and you missed a post that
explained the killfile. Not to worry, you'll soon be put back in, since you
have the same ole same ole to say.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reading further :

From *my* post, not form Andrew's who is in the habit of changing websites, and
lying about who he is.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment.
Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health
and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge
Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that acupuncture is
effective against any disease.
Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of
expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other
psychologic mechanisms.
The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings,
Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture
treatment,
Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.
Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a
knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest [19].

The NCHAF has nothing but opinion.

That opinion is the same for all alternative medicine.

Quack Barrett has only references that agree with him.

Read one site, you have read them all.

They aren't against fraud, they overlook any fraud within convenntional
medicine.

Neither are they trying to protect the public.

Their aim is to stop all alternative, and to state that no alt. practitioner
can be trusted.

IOW's they are full of [censored].

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 5:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jan) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so
accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only
play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a
host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs,
hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and
exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical
care.

>That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

Nope. One can defend someone, or even generally agree with someone,
without accepting every single viewpoint that person holds.

What other ones do you disagree with??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It bears no correspondence to reality at all.

Quoted message said:

Thank you, Eric

Indeed. Ye good ole *gang* syndrome.

Quoted message said:

Jan is actually a very strong proponent of acupuncture

Well, no that is a stretch.

Quoted message said:

and yet uses Barrett's *public* statements on that as fodder against me

I'll let him know you think his website is fodder.

Quoted message said:

On top of that, she has an identity crisis where I am concerned and with

Andrew as well.

Uh huh.

Poor lying Andrew Kingoff.

Quoted message said:

She has accused him of being many other posters, including her own "atheist
PhD brother".

Umm. Do copy and paste this accusation.

You are really not very bright Andrew.

You see liars are almost always exposed.

From: JKingoff ([email hidden])
Subject: Re: Dr. Barrett is a hero
View: Complete Thread (169 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Date: 2001-03-07 05:14:03 PST

Quoted message said:

Jan Drew is one of the biggest belittlers in this newsgroup and she
has engaged in this type of obnoxious behavior since she started
posting to this newsgroup.

When I first "appeared" on this NG, Jan accused me of being Aaron Fox, and
later, of being her own (atheist) brother.

*****OOOOOPS!*******

From: JDrew63929 ([email hidden])
Subject: Re: Dr. Barrett is a hero
View: Complete Thread (169 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Date: 2001-03-07 06:08:05 PST

<snip>

Andrew's deduction since I said he sounded like my brother.

That was speaking of AF Fox. I don't believe I ever said it to you. Feel free
to correct me if I am wrong.

I'll be waiting for your proof, Andrew.

Exposed again.

Poor lying Andrew Kingoff.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 5:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/22/2004 6:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Satan's Minion, Jan Drew wrote:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

Quoted message said:

What I wrote was:

Quoted message said:

http://www.quackwatch.org

Poor dishonest miserable Andrew Kingoff.

He is so far gone, he doesn't even care if he shows himself to be a liar.

Of course there is no quackwatch.org

What I wrote was:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so accredited
are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor
and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum
treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are
succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they
need real medical care.

Quoted message said:

That will do quite nicely, Jan.

For someone who defends Barrett, you must believe it is true.

If not, feel free to explain.

Then proceed to tell us how you are ilsa, educator who has a special interest
in acupuncture.

That will do quite nicely for more lies.

Jan

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/21/2004 7:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so accredited
are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor
and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum
treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are
succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they
need real medical care.

Is this the real Jan, or is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.

Did I really see Jan citing and quoting Quackwatch? Will she stop at
nothing when fighting the Force of Ilsa?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 1/26/2004 7:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/21/2004 7:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

>http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
>http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
>http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm
>

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so

accredited

Quoted message said:

are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being

doctor

Quoted message said:

and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age

hokum

Quoted message said:

treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools

are

Quoted message said:

succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when

they

Quoted message said:

need real medical care.

Is this the real Jan, or is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.

Did I really see Jan citing and quoting Quackwatch? Will she stop at
nothing when fighting the Force of Ilsa?

The force of IIsa?????

You mean the lies and double standards of Andrew Kingoff.

You very well know who ilsa is, but since he is one of the *gang* he is an
upstanding fellow.

I guess you didn't see he latest OOOPS and lie, whiich he could not prove. He
is very much like you.

You both make things up, and you can't back up our stories.

Sad that.

Jan

"Peter Bowditch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/21/2004 7:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

>http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
>http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
>http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm
>

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so

accredited

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being

doctor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age

hokum

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical

schools are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments

when they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

need real medical care.

Is this the real Jan, or is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.

Did I really see Jan citing and quoting Quackwatch? Will she stop at
nothing when fighting the Force of Ilsa?

We wil lall celebrate it as the first official MHA holiday next year. Party
hats for everyone!

Quoted message said:

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Acupuncture
From: [email hidden] (Ilsa9)
Date: 1/21/2004 7:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

>http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/acufacts.htm
>http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7302/1574
>http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410779
>http://www.chiroviewpresents.com/faq/3.1.htm
>

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so

accredited

Quoted message said:

are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being

doctor

Quoted message said:

and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age

hokum

Quoted message said:

treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools

are

Quoted message said:

succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when

they

Quoted message said:

need real medical care.

Is this the real Jan, or is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality.

Did I really see Jan citing and quoting Quackwatch? Will she stop at
nothing when fighting the Force of Ilsa?

Don't touch that dial, ladies & gentlemen!

Quoted message said:

--
Peter Bowditch