Sugar & Salt

"IanW" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

sugar and salt are self conservating because of osmosis.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:46:55 +0200, MMu wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

Quoted message said:

"IanW" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

sugar and salt are self conservating because of osmosis.

Would you expand on that?

--
Enrico C

"Enrico C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 10:46:55 +0200, MMu wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition

:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"IanW" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by

microorganisms?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bigus

sugar and salt are self conservating because of osmosis.

Would you expand on that?

--
Enrico C

Pure sugar is desiccating to microbes due to osmotic forces pulling the
water out (the water move to areas of low water). For salt, same thing, plus
it has no real nutritional value (as sodium and chlorides are so
ubiquitous).

--

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

IanW said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

No protein present in either one.

"Dr. Dickie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[..]

Quoted message said:

Pure sugar is desiccating to microbes due to osmotic forces pulling the
water out (the water move to areas of low water). For salt, same thing,
plus
it has no real nutritional value (as sodium and chlorides are so
ubiquitous).

ok thanks, that's interesting.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

2 main reasons:

1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals. As such, they're inorganic.
Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
living things don't consider them food. Likewise, we shouldn't consider
them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
tract to help us break down our food.

A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
not in a good way.)

Quoted message said:

IanW said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

No protein present in either one.

COMMENT:

But honey doesn't decay or ferment either, and it certainly has enough
protein to provide some nutrition for microbes (not to mention bee
larvae).

The main reason for the self preservation of sugar is the osmotic one
explained. If you dilute honey with water so the osmotic forces are low
enough, it WILL ferment. Then you get mead. Indeed, if you make even
dilute sugar water with that horrible supposedly nutrition-free "white
refined table sugar," it will grow all kinds of interesting microbes as
well. It is not, of course, quite pure. And the difference is
everything.

SBH

Max C. said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

2 main reasons:

1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals. As such, they're inorganic.
Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

COMMENT:
Sugar is as organic as substances get. Look up the word, for godsake.

Quoted message said:

2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
living things don't consider them food.

COMMENT:
Not true. Hummingbirds happy drink sugar-water. And if you leave it in
the feeder too long and make it too dilute, it grows an astonishingly
fun array of microbes.

Quoted message said:

Likewise, we shouldn't consider
them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
tract to help us break down our food.

COMMENT:
Unless you are a termite, this is nonsense. Rarely do I see posts with
so much misinformation.

Quoted message said:

A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
not in a good way.)

COMMENT:
Yeah right. Unless they are done with the proper dose of political
correctness, by Native Americans.

SBH

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by

microorganisms?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bigus

2 main reasons:

1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals. As such, they're inorganic.
Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
living things don't consider them food. Likewise, we shouldn't consider
them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
tract to help us break down our food.

A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
not in a good way.)

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head so
we could see.

--

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

Max C. <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

2 main reasons:

1 - Sugar and salt are mostly minerals. As such, they're inorganic.
Microorganisms need organic matter to eat.

2 - White table sugar and salt have been refined to the point that most
living things don't consider them food. Likewise, we shouldn't consider
them food either... since we depend on microorganisms in our digestive
tract to help us break down our food.

A good rule of thumb... if a food has been altered for longer shelf
life, there's a good chance the alteration will impact your health (and
not in a good way.)

I can't believe this was posted in a "science" Usenet group. How
could anyone not at least accidentally get some of the science
right?
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA [email hidden]

On 21 Jul 2005 11:09:06 -0700, [email hidden] wrote in
<news:[email hidden]> on
sci.med.nutrition :

Quoted message said:

IanW said:

Why doesn't sugar and salt go off? ie: not get polluted by microorganisms?

Bigus

No protein present in either one.

Nor in oils, but they do go off 😉

--
Enrico C

But what about the OP's question. Saying "osmosis" is not going to
help most people who read posts here. If you can't explain why
bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
post here? Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

montygram said:

But what about the OP's question. Saying "osmosis" is not going to
help most people who read posts here. If you can't explain why
bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
post here? Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

COMMENT:

If the OP already understands "osmosis" then you can say a lot of time
by simply referring him to the word. This happens. The first time I
saw granulated sugar troweled into a non-union osteomyelotic
thoracotomy wound infected with MRSA, I couldn't believe it. "How the
the hell is THAT going to work?" said I. "Osmotic shock as antibiotic."
Ah, so.

Here's the short version. All growing cells live in little pools of
water. All cells have pretty dilute watery contents, because you need a
lot of water to let stuff move around, and also the non-water contents
are pretty big molecules that don't count much as solvents because they
take up a lot of space. The number of impacts against a wall they make,
which compete with water molecules trying to get in or out, is
negligable.

All cells are surrounded by soap-like membranes which have to pass
water inward, so the cell can drink. The membranes themselves can't
dissolve in water or the cell woudl fall apart. Therefore it must be
made of something waxy that water can't just move into and disolve
into. Therefore it has have physical little holes in it so the water
can pass. These can be little passive holes that pass water both ways
without much interference, or the "hole" can be a crevice in a protein
acting like a pump (think of a water wheel). In the case lf the passive
hole, it works fine if the concentration of water outside the cell is
lower than inside, which causes water to just diffuse in, along the
gradient. This happens because water molecules impact the hole more
outside than inside, so more of them go that way (out to in).

If there's a protein pump like the water wheel, which must shuttle
water inward against a concentration gradient (low concentration
outside to high inside) it has to do work. But there's a limit to how
much work these things can do uphill. No pump is perfect, and if the
gradient is too great it, acts like a pressure, adn the leaks in the
"wrong direction," like leaks in an old submarine or boat, can quickly
swamp the bilge pumps or whatever.

Really high sugar and salt concentrations outside cells present VERY
low water concentations in solutions. And HUGE gradients in water
concentration. It's practically impossible for the cell to get usable
water out of them, because water leaks out passively faster than it can
be pumped in. Think of seawater, but much worse. Cells eithe have to
close down completely and go into suspended animation, or else prune up
and die.

SBH

Quoted message said:

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head so
we could see.

Well, [censored], your mom must also be proud to have raised someone brave
enough to flame people using complete anonymity. You're quite a tough
guy.

Rather than posting a completely useless patch of dribble, why not do
some research and post your findings. Proving me wrong might actually
be valuable to the rest of the group.

One thing my mom did teach me... if you can't say something nice, keep
your pie hole shut.

Max.

SBH doesn't know what he's talking about at all, for example: "The
membranes themselves can't dissolve in water or the cell woudl fall
apart."

Gilbert Ling demonstrated that such statements are outright wrong.
Read some of his books, and stop quoting textbooks, which are usually
called "storybooks," "fairy tales," and the like by scientists working
in specific fields. For those who do not have a strong scientific
background, Ling's "Life at the cell and below-cell level" is a place
to start, along with a textbook to compare it to.

Any fatty acid layer would have no structural integrity. Cells are
held together by bound water, such as one gets in the egg white when
one boils an egg, or in jello. There are fatty acids at the surface,
but they serve no structural role. The evidence over the last few
years, as well as Ling's work, makes this clear, but what SBH is saying
violated physical laws. Even the textbooks say that "weak forces" hold
the "membrane" together, yet the membrane withstands tremendous
sheering forces. You don't have to be an "expert" in anything to know
that this is ludicrous.

"montygram" <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But what about the OP's question. Saying "osmosis" is not going to
help most people who read posts here. If you can't explain why
bacteria or fungus have difficulty with granulated sugar, why bother to
post here? Just talk terms of art with your science buddies.

Since this is a science forum and since "osmosis" is a topic of any biology
course in basic school I really did not see any need explaining any further
than that without being asked to do so.

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

we could see.

Well, [censored], your mom must also be proud to have raised someone brave
enough to flame people using complete anonymity. You're quite a tough
guy.

Rather than posting a completely useless patch of dribble, why not do
some research and post your findings. Proving me wrong might actually
be valuable to the rest of the group.

One thing my mom did teach me... if you can't say something nice, keep
your pie hole shut.

Max.

Dude, I was being nice. You made yourself look bad by posted that drivel, I
was trying to divert attention away from your complete ignorance.
Prove you wrong? What do I have to do to prove you wrong? Take a high school
chemistry course, you idiot.
Hint: sugar is not mineral
Hint 2: mineral and inorganic (you obviously do not know the definition of
the either word) is redundant (that means you are repeating yourself--I'll
save you having to look that one up).
Hint 3: Spread some refined, deadly white sugar on your countertop. Add a
bit of water. Wait and see ALL the living things that live off of the sugar.

As I said. An entire post not ONE damn thing correct.
Most people try to overcome ignorance, you embrace it.
Stay in high school, there is a ditch somewhere with your name on it.

--

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

we could see.

Well, [censored], your mom must also be proud to have raised someone brave
enough to flame people using complete anonymity. You're quite a tough
guy.

Rather than posting a completely useless patch of dribble, why not do
some research and post your findings. Proving me wrong might actually
be valuable to the rest of the group.

One thing my mom did teach me... if you can't say something nice, keep
your pie hole shut.

Max.

Dude, I was being nice. You made yourself look bad by posted that drivel, I
was trying to divert attention away from your complete ignorance.
Prove you wrong? What do I have to do to prove you wrong? Take a high school
chemistry course, you idiot.
Hint: sugar is not mineral
Hint 2: mineral and inorganic (you obviously do not know the definition of
the either word) is redundant (that means you are repeating yourself--I'll
save you having to look that one up).
Hint 3: Spread some refined, deadly white sugar on your countertop. Add a
bit of water. Wait and see ALL the living things that live off of the sugar.

As I said. An entire post not ONE damn thing correct.
Most people try to overcome ignorance, you embrace it.
Stay in high school, there is a ditch somewhere with your name on it.

--

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens

"Max C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations, you managed to create an entire post, and not get ONE
SINGLE THING CORRECT.
Your mom must be beaming in the corner, if only she would lift her head

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

we could see.

Well, [censored], your mom must also be proud to have raised someone brave
enough to flame people using complete anonymity. You're quite a tough
guy.

Rather than posting a completely useless patch of dribble, why not do
some research and post your findings. Proving me wrong might actually
be valuable to the rest of the group.

One thing my mom did teach me... if you can't say something nice, keep
your pie hole shut.

Max.

Dude, I was being nice. You made yourself look bad by posted that drivel, I
was trying to divert attention away from your complete ignorance.
Prove you wrong? What do I have to do to prove you wrong? Take a high school
chemistry course, you idiot.
Hint: sugar is not mineral
Hint 2: mineral and inorganic (you obviously do not know the definition of
the either word) is redundant (that means you are repeating yourself--I'll
save you having to look that one up).
Hint 3: Spread some refined, deadly white sugar on your countertop. Add a
bit of water. Wait and see ALL the living things that live off of the sugar.

As I said. An entire post not ONE damn thing correct.
Most people try to overcome ignorance, you embrace it.
Stay in high school, there is a ditch somewhere with your name on it.

--

Dr. Dickie
"Let be be finale of seem.
The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream."
-- Wallace Stevens