Re: Developing power?

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of power
sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
I'm asking in relation to power
development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High weight,
low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).

High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive power
and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
presses for strength.

The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
80-85% 1RM range.

I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
power
sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
I'm asking in relation to power
development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
weight,
low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).

High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
power
and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
presses for strength.

The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
80-85% 1RM range.

I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
powerlifters use on speed days.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
> power
> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
> I'm asking in relation to power
> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
> weight,
> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).

High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
power
and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
presses for strength.

The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
80-85% 1RM range.

I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
powerlifters use on speed days.

But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
>> power
>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
>> I'm asking in relation to power
>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
>> weight,
>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high
>> reps).
>
>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
>power
>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used,
>Olympic
>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat,
>and
>presses for strength.
>
>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
>80-85% 1RM range.
>
I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any
of
the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll
find
many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
powerlifters use on speed days.

But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

Fair enough points, John. The OP doesn't say *why* they're interested
in developing power, but this question usually comes up in the context
of athletics - someone's high school coach tells them they need to work
on the power development in the off-season, for example. For this kind
of thing - and I realize it's just my guess at what the OP is really
asking for - the Olympic lifts themselves, done for low reps and heavy
weights, are the usual recommendation.

Ethan Reeve, the strength coach at Wake Forest, posts his football team
workouts pretty often at DragonDoor - here's one from last month.

http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/342102/

Notice the inclusion of Olympic lifts. Of course, Coach Reeve knows
what he's doing, and he includes both power work and strength work in
there because he feels both are good for his players. (If you scroll
down under the message, you'll see his name as a clickable link, and
that will take you to a list of all his posts.)

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
>> power
>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
>> I'm asking in relation to power
>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
>> weight,
>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).
>
>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
>power
>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
>presses for strength.
>
>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
>80-85% 1RM range.
>
I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
powerlifters use on speed days.

But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
their C&J max.

--
Keith

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
>>> power
>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
>>> I'm asking in relation to power
>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
>>> weight,
>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).
>>
>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
>>power
>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
>>presses for strength.
>>
>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
>>80-85% 1RM range.
>>
> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.

You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
powerlifters use on speed days.

But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
their C&J max.

But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
>>>> power
>>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
>>>> I'm asking in relation to power
>>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
>>>> weight,
>>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).
>>>
>>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
>>>power
>>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
>>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
>>>presses for strength.
>>>
>>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
>>>80-85% 1RM range.
>>>
>> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
>> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
>> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.
>
>You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
>practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
>lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
>many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
>powerlifters use on speed days.
>

But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
their C&J max.

But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?

They don't worry much about either. The power clean 1RM is less than the
clean, obviously. So they are at very close to their max for the power
clean. The power clean by it's nature is explosive - you have to get the
bar momentum high.

They can go much heavier in the high pull, but then the motor patterns
change. So once again, they normally don't worry about it and stick to
slightly heavier than their competition results.

One thing I have found is that what is fast to an olympic lifter is an
entirely different thing to what is fast to a powerlifter. The speed box
squat as shown in the Simmons video, for example, would be considered
relatively slow and controlled to an olympic lifter.

--
Keith

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >news:[email hidden]...
> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >>>news:[email hidden]...
> >>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
> >>>> power
> >>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
> >>>> I'm asking in relation to power
> >>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
> >>>> weight,
> >>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high reps).
> >>>
> >>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
> >>>power
> >>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used, Olympic
> >>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat, and
> >>>presses for strength.
> >>>
> >>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
> >>>80-85% 1RM range.
> >>>
> >> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any of
> >> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
> >> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.
> >
> >You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
> >practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing Olympic
> >lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll find
> >many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
> >powerlifters use on speed days.
> >
>
> But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
> the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
> power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
> like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.

Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
their C&J max.

But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?

They don't worry much about either. The power clean 1RM is less than the
clean, obviously. So they are at very close to their max for the power
clean. The power clean by it's nature is explosive - you have to get the
bar momentum high.

They can go much heavier in the high pull, but then the motor patterns
change. So once again, they normally don't worry about it and stick to
slightly heavier than their competition results.

One thing I have found is that what is fast to an olympic lifter is an
entirely different thing to what is fast to a powerlifter. The speed box
squat as shown in the Simmons video, for example, would be considered
relatively slow and controlled to an olympic lifter.

Are those the percentages you are using, Keith?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email hidden]...
>> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
>> >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> >>>news:[email hidden]...
>> >>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
>> >>>> power
>> >>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
>> >>>> I'm asking in relation to power
>> >>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
>> >>>> weight,
>> >>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high
>> >>>> reps).
>> >>>
>> >>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
>> >>>power
>> >>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used,
>> >>>Olympic
>> >>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat,
>> >>>and
>> >>>presses for strength.
>> >>>
>> >>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
>> >>>80-85% 1RM range.
>> >>>
>> >> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any
>> >> of
>> >> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
>> >> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.
>> >
>> >You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
>> >practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing
>> >Olympic
>> >lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll
>> >find
>> >many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
>> >powerlifters use on speed days.
>> >
>>
>> But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
>> the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
>> power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
>> like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.
>
>Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
>1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
>have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
>powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
>their C&J max.

But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?

They don't worry much about either. The power clean 1RM is less than the
clean, obviously. So they are at very close to their max for the power
clean. The power clean by it's nature is explosive - you have to get the
bar momentum high.

They can go much heavier in the high pull, but then the motor patterns
change. So once again, they normally don't worry about it and stick to
slightly heavier than their competition results.

One thing I have found is that what is fast to an olympic lifter is an
entirely different thing to what is fast to a powerlifter. The speed box
squat as shown in the Simmons video, for example, would be considered
relatively slow and controlled to an olympic lifter.

Are those the percentages you are using, Keith?

Yeah.

--
Keith

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:32:02 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
> in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
> ><[email hidden]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >> >"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email hidden]...
> >> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> >> >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >> >>
> >> >>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> >> >>>news:[email hidden]...
> >> >>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
> >> >>>> power
> >> >>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
> >> >>>> I'm asking in relation to power
> >> >>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
> >> >>>> weight,
> >> >>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high
> >> >>>> reps).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
> >> >>>power
> >> >>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used,
> >> >>>Olympic
> >> >>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift, squat,
> >> >>>and
> >> >>>presses for strength.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep training in the
> >> >>>80-85% 1RM range.
> >> >>>
> >> >> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when doing any
> >> >> of
> >> >> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
> >> >> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.
> >> >
> >> >You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not everyone
> >> >practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing
> >> >Olympic
> >> >lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll
> >> >find
> >> >many Olympic competitors training with the kind of percentages of 1RM
> >> >powerlifters use on speed days.
> >> >
> >>
> >> But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
> >> the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
> >> power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well as others
> >> like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of around 60%.
> >
> >Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85% of your
> >1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too light. If you
> >have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
> >powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
> >their C&J max.
>
> But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?

They don't worry much about either. The power clean 1RM is less than the
clean, obviously. So they are at very close to their max for the power
clean. The power clean by it's nature is explosive - you have to get the
bar momentum high.

They can go much heavier in the high pull, but then the motor patterns
change. So once again, they normally don't worry about it and stick to
slightly heavier than their competition results.

One thing I have found is that what is fast to an olympic lifter is an
entirely different thing to what is fast to a powerlifter. The speed box
squat as shown in the Simmons video, for example, would be considered
relatively slow and controlled to an olympic lifter.

Are those the percentages you are using, Keith?

Yeah.

How's your C&J and [censored] doing these days? I might work on the
classic lifts after the TCO. I won't have another meet for 6 months
so I'll have some time to fool around.

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:32:02 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:32:00 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
> > in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> > >In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
> > ><[email hidden]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:15:31 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> > >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >>
> > >> >"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > >> >news:[email hidden]...
> > >> >> On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:28:40 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> > >> >> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>>"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > >> >>>news:[email hidden]...
> > >> >>>> Is there a general formula for developing power, the sort of
> > >> >>>> power
> > >> >>>> sometimes referred to as "explosive power" in the ads?
> > >> >>>> I'm asking in relation to power
> > >> >>>> development, as opposed to absolute strength development (High
> > >> >>>> weight,
> > >> >>>> low reps) or muscular endurance development (low weight, high
> > >> >>>> reps).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>High weight and low reps are the key to developing both explosive
> > >> >>>power
> > >> >>>and absolute strength. The difference is the exercises used,
> > >> >>>Olympic
> > >> >>>lifts (clean, jerk, [censored]) for power, while the deadlift,

squat,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >> >>>and
> > >> >>>presses for strength.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>The "general formula" for both is frequent, low-rep

training in the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >> >>>80-85% 1RM range.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> I disagree. I think the percentage should be lower when

doing any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >> >> of
> > >> >> the big three (and most any other movement) for power. You can't
> > >> >> generate enough speed at those higher percentages.
> > >> >
> > >> >You're discussing a relatively advanced technique which not

everyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > >> >practices, namely powerlifts done for speed. I was discussing
> > >> >Olympic
> > >> >lifts for speed and powerlifts for strength. I don't think you'll
> > >> >find
> > >> >many Olympic competitors training with the kind of

percentages of 1RM

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> > >> >powerlifters use on speed days.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> But I was talking in more general terms. Most people cannot perform
> > >> the classic lifts with a high level of skill. So, to better develop
> > >> power, one would do better to perform the powerlifts as well

as others

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> > >> like the power clean or high pulls at a 1RM percentage of

around 60%.

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> > >
> > >Power cleans and high pulls can be done explosively with 80-85%

of your

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> > >1RM - that is Steve's point. A power clean with 60% is too

light. If you

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> > >have a force plate you can try it. Olympic lifters typically do
> > >powercleans with 80-85% of their C&J 1RM and high pulls at 90-105% of
> > >their C&J max.
> >
> > But what do they do with their power clean 1RM and high pull 1RM?
>
> They don't worry much about either. The power clean 1RM is less than the
> clean, obviously. So they are at very close to their max for the power
> clean. The power clean by it's nature is explosive - you have to get the
> bar momentum high.
>
> They can go much heavier in the high pull, but then the motor patterns
> change. So once again, they normally don't worry about it and stick to
> slightly heavier than their competition results.
>
> One thing I have found is that what is fast to an olympic lifter is an
> entirely different thing to what is fast to a powerlifter. The speed box
> squat as shown in the Simmons video, for example, would be considered
> relatively slow and controlled to an olympic lifter.
>
Are those the percentages you are using, Keith?

Yeah.

How's your C&J and [censored] doing these days? I might work on the
classic lifts after the TCO. I won't have another meet for 6 months
so I'll have some time to fool around.

Way down. I banged my shoulder up playing rugby and the overhead stuff
just isn't going right now. My clean still isn't bad (around 275 right
now), but I can't put anything overhead right now. Can't even lift my arm
without pain.

If you are typical of powerlifters you'll have a huge surplus of strength
and crappy technique. So you'll be able to power clean more than you can
clean, etc. So what you do depends on what you want out of it. If you want
to work on speed for the powerlifts, but don't really want to specialize
in the OL you may want to work the high-pull much harder. You'll be able
to high-pull way more as a percentage than an OL can. At least if you are
like me. I could [censored] high pull a pile, but my [censored] stunk. HAH!!
Always wanted to say that...

:^)

--
Keith

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:07:09 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Hanson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How's your C&J and [censored] doing these days? I might work on the
classic lifts after the TCO. I won't have another meet for 6 months
so I'll have some time to fool around.

Way down. I banged my shoulder up playing rugby and the overhead stuff
just isn't going right now. My clean still isn't bad (around 275 right
now), but I can't put anything overhead right now. Can't even lift my arm
without pain.

That sucks. My shoulder hurt a bit after bench last night but I'm not
sure if it's a shoulder problem or a back problem. I think my upper
back is a little out of place again.

Quoted message said:

If you are typical of powerlifters you'll have a huge surplus of strength
and crappy technique. So you'll be able to power clean more than you can
clean, etc. So what you do depends on what you want out of it. If you want
to work on speed for the powerlifts, but don't really want to specialize
in the OL you may want to work the high-pull much harder. You'll be able
to high-pull way more as a percentage than an OL can. At least if you are
like me. I could [censored] high pull a pile, but my [censored] stunk. HAH!!
Always wanted to say that...

:^)

LOL! Actually, I would like to do an oly meet someday. I wouldn't do
the classic lifts for powerlifting per se. Hell, I've never even been
to an oly meet. There is supposed to be a really good training center
near me too (I heard about it here) that I plan on checking
out...someday.