Which brands use which frames?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Martin Wilson said:

I'm especially interested to know which bikes are using the new lower
cost mainland china/vietnam frames that many of these companies make.
Also there are now mainland china competitors to the taiwanese brands
and wondered if any of these are being used by the major usa/euro
brands.

Not all mainland China factories are competitors. Many of these
factories are owned by big Taiwan companies. I belive that the cheapest
Giant and Trek bikes are made in the Giant factory in mainland China.

According to Martin Wilson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Just trying to find out which brands use which frames out of pure
curiousity basically.

I know companies like Giant, Cannondale, Kinesis, Merida use
exclusively their own frames.

Strike Cannondale from the list, they are sourcing their new CF frames
from Asia.

---
Lars Lehtonen

Lars Lehtonen said:

According to Martin Wilson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Just trying to find out which brands use which frames out of pure
curiousity basically.

I know companies like Giant, Cannondale, Kinesis, Merida use
exclusively their own frames.

Strike Cannondale from the list, they are sourcing their new CF frames
from Asia.

And Kinesis doesn't really belong on the list. Kinesis is a tubing
producer. And they will also weld/glue together frames and forks. But
they don't sell them as Kinesis brand bicycles. They are sold with a
bike company's brand on them.

Quoted message said:

And Kinesis doesn't really belong on the list. Kinesis is a tubing
producer. And they will also weld/glue together frames and forks. But
they don't sell them as Kinesis brand bicycles. They are sold with a
bike company's brand on them.

Really? Then what are these?

http://tinyurl.com/d6c5o

JLS

On 14 Jul 2005 10:56:22 -0700, "James Scott" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And Kinesis doesn't really belong on the list. Kinesis is a tubing
producer. And they will also weld/glue together frames and forks. But
they don't sell them as Kinesis brand bicycles. They are sold with a
bike company's brand on them.

Really? Then what are these?

http://tinyurl.com/d6c5o

Kinesis sells their own branded frames outside the US, but not in the
US at present. I'm told this is due to their recognition that they
would not be used as a manufacturing source if they became direct
competitors for certain large customers of theirs.
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Lars Lehtonen said:

According to Martin Wilson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Just trying to find out which brands use which frames out of pure
curiousity basically.

I know companies like Giant, Cannondale, Kinesis, Merida use
exclusively their own frames.

Strike Cannondale from the list, they are sourcing their new CF frames
from Asia.

---
Lars Lehtonen

Thats a shame as I think they were the last mass producers exclusively
building frames in the US. Their going to be just like the rest now I
suppose. I wonder if they will change the sticker from 'Handmade in
the USA' to 'Handmade in Taiwan'? Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Martin Wilson said:

Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

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Martin Wilson said:

Lars Lehtonen said:

According to Martin Wilson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Just trying to find out which brands use which frames out of pure
curiousity basically.

I know companies like Giant, Cannondale, Kinesis, Merida use
exclusively their own frames.

Strike Cannondale from the list, they are sourcing their new CF frames
from Asia.

---
Lars Lehtonen

Thats a shame as I think they were the last mass producers exclusively
building frames in the US. Their going to be just like the rest now I
suppose. I wonder if they will change the sticker from 'Handmade in
the USA' to 'Handmade in Taiwan'? Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Only the new Cannondale carbon bike is coming from Asia. The aluminum
Cannondale bikes will still be welded in the USA.

Quoted message said:

Martin Wilson said:

Lars Lehtonen said:

According to Martin Wilson <[email hidden]>:
>Just trying to find out which brands use which frames out of pure
>curiousity basically.
>
>I know companies like Giant, Cannondale, Kinesis, Merida use
>exclusively their own frames.

Strike Cannondale from the list, they are sourcing their new CF frames
from Asia.

---
Lars Lehtonen

Thats a shame as I think they were the last mass producers exclusively
building frames in the US. Their going to be just like the rest now I
suppose. I wonder if they will change the sticker from 'Handmade in
the USA' to 'Handmade in Taiwan'? Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Only the new Cannondale carbon bike is coming from Asia. The aluminum
Cannondale bikes will still be welded in the USA.

Fair enough and I'm sure there are good technical and commercial
reasons for this but somehow introducing non USA manufactured bikes
removes something from the brand. Still they held out longer than
anyone else I suppose.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin Wilson said:

Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

Martin Wilson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin Wilson said:

Assuming the frames are coming from
Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin Wilson said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Assuming the frames are coming from
>Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
>China or Vietnam.

Why is that?

JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.

I don't think the quality will go down if some production was moved to
the better manufacturing plants of taiwan in fact it would more likely
go up. I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore. Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc. When you buy a Cannondale you are buying something a bit
different from Trek, Specialized, GT etc. Cannondale have a reputation
for innovation and building their own bikes from the ground up in the
USA.

Martin Wilson said:

I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore.

That's what I was really asking about. I don't understand why that is
"a shame." A share for who?

Quoted message said:

Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc.

OK, now I (sort of) understand. I buy bikes based on how they ride
myself, but I guess other people have difference motivations.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin Wilson said:

I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore.

That's what I was really asking about. I don't understand why that is
"a shame." A share for who?

Well variety of available bikes I suppose. Just about all bikes are
coming out of taiwan and it would be nice if Cannondale continued to
provide something different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc.

OK, now I (sort of) understand. I buy bikes based on how they ride
myself, but I guess other people have difference motivations.

JT

I've never bought or even ridden a Cannondale. I sadly tend to buy on
price and just go for the best quality components on a bike I can
afford as my no.1 priority. I still think theres a place for a true
usa made bike even if I'd have to be a bit richer before I personally
bought one.

Martin Wilson said:

the reference or have gone elsewhere. A Specialized owner has claimed
that Specialized have used Merida and Giant for their frames. I know
Specialized have used Kinesis forks.

AFAIK, Specialized is (at least partialy) owned by Merida...

Today, most "brand" companies are just sales offices without any
manufacturing (and probably engineering) resources. That doesn't mean
they don't sell good bicycles, though.

Taiwan bike makers are by far the best in the world. Despite what "we" want
to believe.
Most of the newer technology has come from Taiwan. Hodaka worked with Scott
USA to develop the new CF-1 880 gram road frame, Giant is leading in carbon
fiber (and full suspension design) right now too. Colago and Pinarelli have
been making frames in Taiwan (on the quiet) for 2-3 years now and now
Colnago has come out of the closet and told the world that they are making
the new carbon fiber frames there. Colnago is a big sponsor of "The
A-Team",a group of Taiwanese bike manufacturers.

Frames are generally made outside of the assembly factories. Sure, Giant and
Hodaka make many of their own frames but there are about 30 very high
quality frame makers in Taiwan that just make bicycle frames.

Merida has helped Specialized a lot. The Specialized Epic design is actually
a Merida design. Merida was trying to sell it to many of it's customers for
over 2 years before it appeared on a Specialized. Obviously, with Nerida
being the owner of Specialized they used this brand to sell their design.
Actually, until the Fox 'Brain' thing was developed this was not a very good
design. I've always maintained that this new shock developemnt is fed by
shock makers having to find solutions to frame buiders bad suspension
designs.

And don't be concerned about the quality of the bikes vs. bikes made in the
USA. I was in a US bike factory once and I was watching a guy apply decals.
He had put one on crooked and another had a wrinkle in it. When I asked him
how he could let it go down the line like that he said "Mr, I get paid to
do it. I don't get paid to do it right!"

Oh, and to put right a comment from an earlier reply. ALL aluminum frames
must be heat treated. I do't know where the "or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames." came from but it's incorrect.

I hope I've helped.

"Martin Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Martin Wilson said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:07:46 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:36:16 +0100, Martin Wilson
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Assuming the frames are coming from
>>Taiwan that is. It will be really sad if they are coming from mainland
>>China or Vietnam.
>
>Why is that?
>
>JT

Well Taiwan are the best bike frame builders in the world with some
sophisticated factories incoporating welding robots and expensive heat
treating facilities as found in factories by Giant and Merida as well
as others I'm sure. Where as mainland China and Vietnam are generally
lower tech and sell at the bottom end of pricing normally. They tend
to make the lower cost steel frames or aluminium that doesn't need
heat treating like basic 7005 frames. I'm sure that will change but at
this point in time Taiwan are generally far better frame builders.

How about saying "it will be really sad if the quality goes down"
given that there is no evidence one way or the other of quality change
in these bikes.

I don't think the quality will go down if some production was moved to
the better manufacturing plants of taiwan in fact it would more likely
go up. I would just think it a shame that Cannondale weren't a full
USA bike manufacturing company anymore. Sometimes brand is about
something you want to buy into, a reputation, a style, sporting
history etc. When you buy a Cannondale you are buying something a bit
different from Trek, Specialized, GT etc. Cannondale have a reputation
for innovation and building their own bikes from the ground up in the
USA.

aotearoa706 said:

Giant is leading in carbon fiber (and full suspension design) right now

So why do they make the most ugly bikes one can imagine? Why do I keep
reading in tests that the Giants aren't stable?

Quoted message said:

Colago and Pinarelli

Colnago and Pinarello you mean.

Maybe frames are produced in Taiwan that are as good or are even better than
bikes from elsewhere, but design is really not on a high level in my
opinion.

Greets, Derk