TdF rules gender biased?

Ken M <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I

have

Quoted message said:

really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see anything
that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an "un-written" rule.

Or

Quoted message said:

did I just miss where it said that on the website? Surely there must

be

Quoted message said:

at least a few female cyclist that would be capable of competing at
this level.

Surely not. There aren't even many male cyclist that are capable.
Every TdF started is a genetic outlier.

"Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I have
really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see anything
that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or
did I just miss where it said that on the website? Surely there must be
at least a few female cyclist that would be capable of competing at
this level.

I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.

But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose their riders
based on their ability to contribute to winning. If a competitive woman
rider were available to a team that could use her particular skills, she
could very well be offered a job.

But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the world. Tough
to give that up just to be a domestique on a "men's" team, although it would
probably pay better.

RichC

Ken M said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I have
really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders.

I am under the impression that there is a women's Tour de France, just
as there is an LPGA and a WNBA. In fact, I know a guy who claims he built
a special frame for a woman who competed in it. Is this so, or is the guy
blowing smoke?

Bill

-----------------------------------------
| The means are the ends in the making. |
| -- Mohandas K. Gandhi |
-----------------------------------------

In article <[email hidden]>,

Ken M said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I have
really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders.

No women in the NFL or NBA either. If a woman could be competitive
at this level, I'm sure she could find a team to sponsor her.
Think of all the publicity the sponsors would get if she were to win
a stage.

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I
::: have really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no
::: women riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see
::: anything that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an
::: "un-written" rule. Or did I just miss where it said that on the
::: website? Surely there must be at least a few female cyclist that
::: would be capable of competing at this level.
::
:: I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.
::
:: But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose their
:: riders based on their ability to contribute to winning. If a
:: competitive woman rider were available to a team that could use her
:: particular skills, she could very well be offered a job.
::
:: But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the world.
:: Tough to give that up just to be a domestique on a "men's" team,
:: although it would probably pay better.

If a top woman rider were to get on a TdF competitive team, that would do
wonders for women's cycling.

In article said:

I am under the impression that there is a women's Tour de France, just
as there is an LPGA and a WNBA. In fact, I know a guy who claims he built
a special frame for a woman who competed in it. Is this so, or is the guy
blowing smoke?

There is a women's Tour de France, but it gets essentially no visiblity
in the USA. Even in France, sponsorship and viewership is much lower than
the men's race.

Thu, 14 Jul 2005 21:22:46 +0000 (UTC), <[email hidden]>,

(C) said:

Quoted message said:

I am under the impression that there is a women's Tour de France, just
as there is an LPGA and a WNBA. In fact, I know a guy who claims he built
a special frame for a woman who competed in it. Is this so, or is the guy
blowing smoke?

There is a women's Tour de France, but it gets essentially no visiblity
in the USA. Even in France, sponsorship and viewership is much lower than
the men's race.

Make that_was_.

"The Grande Boucle, formerly known as the Tour Cycliste Feminin, or
simply Tour Feminin, was one of the grand tours of women's cycle races
in the world for many years before its demise. The last Grande Boucle
took place in 2003. The term "Grande Boucle" itself means "Great Loop"
in English and was called thus because the race was held as a series
of individual stages which, together, took a circuitous course around
France. Therein lies one of the problems which this race experienced,
as well as one of the reasons the race was so difficult. The
organizers had to scramble for sponsorship money nearly every year and
were forced to schedule the individual stages in those cities which
contributed sponsorship money, regardless of their geographical
location. As a result, there were often very long auto transfers
between the finish of one stage and the start of the next stage -
sometimes involving several hours driving after a long, hard day of
racing. Another problem which cropped up in the mid-1990s involved the
name of the race itself. Until 1997, the race took place under the
name Tour Cycliste Feminin (TCF), when the race was billed as the
"Women's Tour de France", or just the Women's Tour, patterned after
the (men's) Tour de France which was know as Le Tour. The organizing
committe of that latter race objected on trademark grounds to the use
of the word "Tour" or the billing of the women's event as a women's
Tour de France and in 1998 the TCF organizers changed the name. In
spite of all the troubles, the Grande Boucle, during its run, was one
of the premier events each year in women's cycle racing and the list
of winners and medalists reads like a Who's Who in women's cycle
racing. To win or even medal in the event was considered a stellar
achievement, one which would grace any rider's resume."

Jeannie Longo won it three times, four second and one third place
finish.
--
zk

"Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I have
really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see anything
that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or
did I just miss where it said that on the website? Surely there must be
at least a few female cyclist that would be capable of competing at
this level.

Ken

There isn't a woman on Earth who can keep up with those guys. The most elite
female cyclist would get smoked by the pack of genetic freaks in the TdF.

Gooserider said:

"Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I have
really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no women
riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see anything
that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or
did I just miss where it said that on the website? Surely there must be
at least a few female cyclist that would be capable of competing at
this level.

There isn't a woman on Earth who can keep up with those guys. The most elite
female cyclist would get smoked by the pack of genetic freaks in the TdF.

Uh oh... now you've done it. Doncha know that the only reason wimmin
can't be successful in the TdF is that their mothers made 'em play
with dolls instead of frying ants with a magnifying glass and running
around like little animals? Otherwise, 50.000000% of the riders in
the tour would be wimmin.

Next thing you know, you'll be suggesting that the average woman is
shorter or lighter than the average man. Why, the noive...

;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Even elite female athletes fall short of men in the same sports. They
lack physical strngth endurance and aggression

Ken M said:

Surely there must be
at least a few female cyclist that would be capable of competing at
this level.

Ken

Short answer- there aren't. If there were, they'd have Division 1
contracts.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Quoted message said:

Until 1997, the race took place under the name Tour Cycliste
Feminin (TCF)... [but] the organizing committee of [the Tour
de France] objected on trademark grounds to the use of the
word "Tour"

Merde de poulet!

--
"Le monde a commencé par là, puisque Adam
a vendu le paradis pour une pomme."
-- Honoré de Balzac, "La Maison du Chat-qui-pelote"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

Rich Clark wrote:
:: "Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: I was watching last night, and being that this is the first TdF I
::: have really paid any attention too, just noticed that there are no
::: women riders. I looked at the offical TdF website and didn't see
::: anything that mentioned that riders must be male. Is it an
::: "un-written" rule. Or did I just miss where it said that on the
::: website? Surely there must be at least a few female cyclist that
::: would be capable of competing at this level.
::
:: I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.
::
:: But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose their
:: riders based on their ability to contribute to winning. If a
:: competitive woman rider were available to a team that could use her
:: particular skills, she could very well be offered a job.
::
:: But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the world.
:: Tough to give that up just to be a domestique on a "men's" team,
:: although it would probably pay better.

If a top woman rider were to get on a TdF competitive team, that would do
wonders for women's cycling.

Even in a technique-oriented sport like golf, the best women in the
world can't come close to seriously competing with top men. Michelle Wie
and Annika Sorenstam have trouble making the cuts at men's tournaments.

In a power-oriented sport like cycling, it's not even that close. Let's
take a look at some times, these from the 2004 Olympics:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_women_tt
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_men_tt

Note especially the finishing times for the 24 km women's TT, and the
24km timing splits for the men's TT. In this event the fastest woman
would have finished last at the 24 km mark in the men's TT. Except that
the men were pacing for a 48 km TT, not a 24.

It appears the course for both races was a 24 km out-and-back route, but
the men did 2 laps to the women's one. That makes the times especially
comparable. This is also an event where we can fairly assume that the
men and women both would have been world-class fields.

I found some results from the Cascade Classic TT stage this year, a race
in which the women, if anything, are likely to be relatively more
world-class than the men's field. The top women would have finished
below mid-pack in the elite men, and would not have challenged for top
positions in the Men's Cat 2/3 (ie: mid-level amateur men) field.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> In article <[email hidden]>,
:> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> > Rich Clark wrote:
:> > :: "Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:> > :: news:[email hidden]...
:> > ::: I was watching last night, and being that this is the first
:> > ::: TdF I have really paid any attention too, just noticed that
:> > ::: there are no women riders. I looked at the offical TdF website
:> > ::: and didn't see anything that mentioned that riders must be
:> > ::: male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or did I just miss where it
:> > ::: said that on the website? Surely there must be at least a few
:> > ::: female cyclist that would be capable of competing at this
:> > ::: level.
:> > ::
:> > :: I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.
:> > ::
:> > :: But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose
:> > :: their riders based on their ability to contribute to winning.
:> > :: If a competitive woman rider were available to a team that
:> > :: could use her particular skills, she could very well be offered
:> > :: a job.
:> > ::
:> > :: But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the
:> > :: world. Tough to give that up just to be a domestique on a
:> > :: "men's" team, although it would probably pay better.
:> >
:> > If a top woman rider were to get on a TdF competitive team, that
:> > would do wonders for women's cycling.
:>
:> Even in a technique-oriented sport like golf, the best women in the
:> world can't come close to seriously competing with top men. Michelle
:> Wie and Annika Sorenstam have trouble making the cuts at men's
:> tournaments.
:>
:> In a power-oriented sport like cycling, it's not even that close.
:> Let's take a look at some times, these from the 2004 Olympics:
:>
:> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_women_tt
:> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_men_tt
:>
:> Note especially the finishing times for the 24 km women's TT, and the
:> 24km timing splits for the men's TT. In this event the fastest woman
:> would have finished last at the 24 km mark in the men's TT. Except
:> that the men were pacing for a 48 km TT, not a 24.

I think your math got off...the fastest woman would have beat the slowest
guy at 24km, but my only a small margin. Your point is made.

:>
:> It appears the course for both races was a 24 km out-and-back route,
:> but the men did 2 laps to the women's one. That makes the times
:> especially comparable. This is also an event where we can fairly
:> assume that the
:> men and women both would have been world-class fields.
:>
:> I found some results from the Cascade Classic TT stage this year, a
:> race in which the women, if anything, are likely to be relatively
:> more world-class than the men's field. The top women would have
:> finished
:> below mid-pack in the elite men, and would not have challenged for
:> top positions in the Men's Cat 2/3 (ie: mid-level amateur men) field.

Obviously, men still generate greater power/weight ratios. However, I
thought women were supposed to have better endurance. Maybe racing is not
an endurance event...

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Even elite female athletes fall short of men in the same sports. They
lack physical strngth endurance and aggression

Exactly. That's why women marathoners are slower than males. Women can be
excellent athletes, but an elite male is always going to be better than the
elite female. Andy Roddick would beat Maria Sharapova handily, for example.
:-)

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> In article <[email hidden]>,
:> "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> > Rich Clark wrote:
:> > :: "Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:> > :: news:[email hidden]...
:> > ::: I was watching last night, and being that this is the first
:> > ::: TdF I have really paid any attention too, just noticed that
:> > ::: there are no women riders. I looked at the offical TdF website
:> > ::: and didn't see anything that mentioned that riders must be
:> > ::: male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or did I just miss where it
:> > ::: said that on the website? Surely there must be at least a few
:> > ::: female cyclist that would be capable of competing at this
:> > ::: level.
:> > ::
:> > :: I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.
:> > ::
:> > :: But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose
:> > :: their riders based on their ability to contribute to winning.
:> > :: If a competitive woman rider were available to a team that
:> > :: could use her particular skills, she could very well be offered
:> > :: a job.
:> > ::
:> > :: But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the
:> > :: world. Tough to give that up just to be a domestique on a
:> > :: "men's" team, although it would probably pay better.
:> >
:> > If a top woman rider were to get on a TdF competitive team, that
:> > would do wonders for women's cycling.
:>
:> Even in a technique-oriented sport like golf, the best women in the
:> world can't come close to seriously competing with top men. Michelle
:> Wie and Annika Sorenstam have trouble making the cuts at men's
:> tournaments.
:>
:> In a power-oriented sport like cycling, it's not even that close.
:> Let's take a look at some times, these from the 2004 Olympics:
:>
:>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_women_tt
:> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_men_tt
:>
:> Note especially the finishing times for the 24 km women's TT, and the
:> 24km timing splits for the men's TT. In this event the fastest woman
:> would have finished last at the 24 km mark in the men's TT. Except
:> that the men were pacing for a 48 km TT, not a 24.

I think your math got off...the fastest woman would have beat the slowest
guy at 24km, but my only a small margin. Your point is made.

:>
:> It appears the course for both races was a 24 km out-and-back route,
:> but the men did 2 laps to the women's one. That makes the times
:> especially comparable. This is also an event where we can fairly
:> assume that the
:> men and women both would have been world-class fields.
:>
:> I found some results from the Cascade Classic TT stage this year, a
:> race in which the women, if anything, are likely to be relatively
:> more world-class than the men's field. The top women would have
:> finished
:> below mid-pack in the elite men, and would not have challenged for
:> top positions in the Men's Cat 2/3 (ie: mid-level amateur men) field.

Obviously, men still generate greater power/weight ratios. However, I
thought women were supposed to have better endurance. Maybe racing is not
an endurance event...

Would you consider the Boston Marathon to be an endurance event?

http://www.bostonmarathon.org/BostonMarathon/Default.asp

Men's Open:
Hailu Negussie (Ethiopia), 2:11:45
Women's Open:
Catherine Ndereba (Kenya), 2:25:13
Men's Masters:
Joshua Kipkemboi (Kenya), 2:19:28
Women's Masters:
Madina Biktagirova (Russia), 2:32:41
Men's Wheelchair:
Ernst Van Dyk (South Africa), 1:24:11
Women's Wheelchair:
Cheri Blauwet (United States), 1:47:45

Men are stronger and faster than women. :-) Notice that the men's masters
winner was faster than the women's open winner, so he was older than she.

Well the majority here seems to say that there is no rule against it. I
was just curious, I thought maybe because it has been a "boys club" for
so long, that it just became an un-written rule or something silly like
that.

Ken

Gooserider wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote:
::::: In article <[email hidden]>,
::::: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::::
:::::: Rich Clark wrote:
:::::::: "Ken M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:::::::: news:[email hidden]...
::::::::: I was watching last night, and being that this is the first
::::::::: TdF I have really paid any attention too, just noticed that
::::::::: there are no women riders. I looked at the offical TdF website
::::::::: and didn't see anything that mentioned that riders must be
::::::::: male. Is it an "un-written" rule. Or did I just miss where it
::::::::: said that on the website? Surely there must be at least a few
::::::::: female cyclist that would be capable of competing at this
::::::::: level.
::::::::
:::::::: I don't believe there are any rules about that, as such.
::::::::
:::::::: But remember, this is a professional team sport. Teams choose
:::::::: their riders based on their ability to contribute to winning.
:::::::: If a competitive woman rider were available to a team that
:::::::: could use her particular skills, she could very well be offered
:::::::: a job.
::::::::
:::::::: But such a woman would probably be the top woman rider in the
:::::::: world. Tough to give that up just to be a domestique on a
:::::::: "men's" team, although it would probably pay better.
::::::
:::::: If a top woman rider were to get on a TdF competitive team, that
:::::: would do wonders for women's cycling.
:::::
::::: Even in a technique-oriented sport like golf, the best women in
::::: the world can't come close to seriously competing with top men.
::::: Michelle Wie and Annika Sorenstam have trouble making the cuts at
::::: men's tournaments.
:::::
::::: In a power-oriented sport like cycling, it's not even that close.
::::: Let's take a look at some times, these from the 2004 Olympics:
:::::
:::::
:::
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_women_tt
:::::
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/olympics04/?id=results/road_men_tt
:::::
::::: Note especially the finishing times for the 24 km women's TT, and
::::: the 24km timing splits for the men's TT. In this event the
::::: fastest woman would have finished last at the 24 km mark in the
::::: men's TT. Except that the men were pacing for a 48 km TT, not a
::::: 24.
:::
::: I think your math got off...the fastest woman would have beat the
::: slowest guy at 24km, but my only a small margin. Your point is
::: made.
:::
:::::
::::: It appears the course for both races was a 24 km out-and-back
::::: route, but the men did 2 laps to the women's one. That makes the
::::: times especially comparable. This is also an event where we can
::::: fairly assume that the
::::: men and women both would have been world-class fields.
:::::
::::: I found some results from the Cascade Classic TT stage this year,
::::: a race in which the women, if anything, are likely to be
::::: relatively more world-class than the men's field. The top women
::::: would have finished
::::: below mid-pack in the elite men, and would not have challenged for
::::: top positions in the Men's Cat 2/3 (ie: mid-level amateur men)
::::: field.
:::
::: Obviously, men still generate greater power/weight ratios.
::: However, I thought women were supposed to have better endurance.
::: Maybe racing is not an endurance event...
:::
:::
:::
:: Would you consider the Boston Marathon to be an endurance event?
::
:: http://www.bostonmarathon.org/BostonMarathon/Default.asp
::
:: Men's Open:
:: Hailu Negussie (Ethiopia), 2:11:45
:: Women's Open:
:: Catherine Ndereba (Kenya), 2:25:13
:: Men's Masters:
:: Joshua Kipkemboi (Kenya), 2:19:28
:: Women's Masters:
:: Madina Biktagirova (Russia), 2:32:41
:: Men's Wheelchair:
:: Ernst Van Dyk (South Africa), 1:24:11
:: Women's Wheelchair:
:: Cheri Blauwet (United States), 1:47:45
::
:: Men are stronger and faster than women. :-) Notice that the men's
:: masters winner was faster than the women's open winner, so he was
:: older than she.

I'm not arguing the point that men are stronger and faster than women.
However, I *thought* it was *supposed* to be that women in general are
better at endurance events than men (one reason might be that they are
generally lighter). I'm not saying that's true, BTW.

When you look at the times of the finishers in the marathon, I'd have to
wonder how the results would look if the score was based on how far each
participant could run in a continual (pee, food and water breaks allowed)
effort, rather than how fast they can run a fixed distance. Obviously,
these folks can run 26 miles quite easily. Thus, it's not really a test of
endurance for them anymore, so it becomes a question of how fast they can
go. It seems, anyway.

Compared to sprinting, I do consider a marathon an endurance event.
However, for these athletes, I'm not convinced it really is so much a test
of endurnace anymore.

Roger Zoul <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Obviously, men still generate greater power/weight ratios. However,

I

Quoted message said:

thought women were supposed to have better endurance. Maybe racing

is not

Quoted message said:

an endurance event...

There really aren't any true endurance events, ie. no competition
measures how long you can sustain at a certain submaximal heart rate.
But I think there has been a woman overall winner in some of the
longer running races (100+ miles).