calf cramp

Two cramps in as many years, and you're [censored]' about it? Get a life.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

7:45 - 1 serving Accelerade before race

Quoted message said:

8:00-9:44 - race half marathon
1 succeed salt cap, 1 CarbBoom gel, water, few sids G'rade

Quoted message said:

9:44-10:00 - walking/eating/drinking cooldown
1 serving Endurox, 2 bananas, few sips G'rade endurance formula

Quoted message said:

11:00 - a clif bar and water on the train home

Quoted message said:

13:30 - wake up, move leg, get horrible intense calf cramp

Quoted message said:

Once in a blue moon I'll get a calf cramp - I think it's been about a
year since the last. I also think I used to get them (and/or foot
cramps) occasionally for years, since long before I started running.

Four words: Dehydration....

I recently ran a trail 1/2 M (1800' of climb) in 1:44, and lost 7lbs during
the race. (150lbs, bmi 22.1).

I don't know how much a "serving" is, what your bmi is (higher usually means
more sweating), what the dew point was (higher means it's harder to cool,
ergo, higher sweat rate), etc...

But that won't keep me from speculating that you were enough dehydrated (and
your muscles tweaked enough) to trigger a cramp. I am prone to cramps if
I'm down about 5 lbs (happens to me during hot weather ultras, usually after
4-7 hours).

The cure is to get my weight back to within 3 lbs of starting. During a
race, I'll tank down a quart (along with a succeed or two to drain the
stomach) to get back into hydration balance, and the cramps stop within 5-10
minutes.

From the looks of it, you might have had only a 2-3 lbs of water in the
critical timeframe, and ate a big meal (which requires water to process).
If you're not thirsty after a race, that can be caused by salt deficiency.
I'll take a succeed afterward to stimulate thirst -- that works for me.

At the risk of resurrecting the whole weigh-in before and after controversy,
let me gently suggest the scale at your next race or long workout.

-- Dan

I'll second Dan's reply. Mine have usually always been after
a big effort where I might have not taken enough liquids.
If I feel one coming on, if I straighten the leg immediately
it'll usually stop the cramp. But I feel for ya, those hurt!!

Teresa in AZ

Dan Stumpus said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

7:45 - 1 serving Accelerade before race

Quoted message said:

8:00-9:44 - race half marathon
1 succeed salt cap, 1 CarbBoom gel, water, few sids G'rade

Quoted message said:

9:44-10:00 - walking/eating/drinking cooldown
1 serving Endurox, 2 bananas, few sips G'rade endurance formula

Quoted message said:

11:00 - a clif bar and water on the train home

Quoted message said:

13:30 - wake up, move leg, get horrible intense calf cramp

Quoted message said:

Once in a blue moon I'll get a calf cramp - I think it's been about a
year since the last. I also think I used to get them (and/or foot
cramps) occasionally for years, since long before I started running.

Four words: Dehydration....

I recently ran a trail 1/2 M (1800' of climb) in 1:44, and lost 7lbs during
the race. (150lbs, bmi 22.1).

I don't know how much a "serving" is, what your bmi is (higher usually means
more sweating), what the dew point was (higher means it's harder to cool,
ergo, higher sweat rate), etc...

But that won't keep me from speculating that you were enough dehydrated (and
your muscles tweaked enough) to trigger a cramp. I am prone to cramps if
I'm down about 5 lbs (happens to me during hot weather ultras, usually after
4-7 hours).

The cure is to get my weight back to within 3 lbs of starting. During a
race, I'll tank down a quart (along with a succeed or two to drain the
stomach) to get back into hydration balance, and the cramps stop within 5-10
minutes.

From the looks of it, you might have had only a 2-3 lbs of water in the
critical timeframe, and ate a big meal (which requires water to process).
If you're not thirsty after a race, that can be caused by salt deficiency.
I'll take a succeed afterward to stimulate thirst -- that works for me.

At the risk of resurrecting the whole weigh-in before and after controversy,
let me gently suggest the scale at your next race or long workout.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

Four words: Dehydration....

Thanks Dan and Teresa.

I've weighed myself a few times before and after 2+ hour runs this
summer, and always been within +/- 1 lb - my thirst seems calibrated
pretty well for training runs at least. But I may have sweated more at
race effort and certainly drank less than I would on a training of
similar length, and might not have made up the difference afterward.

Quoted message said:

I don't know how much a "serving" is, what your bmi is (higher usually means
more sweating), what the dew point was (higher means it's harder to cool,
ergo, higher sweat rate), etc...

Very roughly:
14 oz immediately before race (accelerade)
12 oz during (water, g'rade)
28 oz immediately after (endurox + g'rade)
20 oz water in the next 2 hour before napping & cramping

5'9" ~148 lb

dew point 57F

I'll weigh in for a few more long runs, and also the next race if'n I
can remember to.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know how much a "serving" is, what your bmi is (higher usually
means
more sweating), what the dew point was (higher means it's harder to cool,
ergo, higher sweat rate), etc...

Quoted message said:

Very roughly:
14 oz immediately before race (accelerade)
12 oz during (water, g'rade)
28 oz immediately after (endurox + g'rade)
20 oz water in the next 2 hour before napping & cramping

5'9" ~148 lb

dew point 57F

57F! Ah HA!!! (ok, just kidding...)

Since you tanked down 4.6 lbs of various brews, I doubt it was dehydration;
it takes quite a deficit to trigger cramping in my case.

You might have been low on salt, but you ate an apparently salty meal, so
that's probably out, too.

Next time try Beer?

-- Dan

Quoted message said:

Since you tanked down 4.6 lbs of various brews, I doubt it was dehydration;
it takes quite a deficit to trigger cramping in my case.

You might have been low on salt, but you ate an apparently salty meal, so
that's probably out, too.

Well, the salty meal was *after* the nap and cramp.

But between sports drinks, gel, succeed cap, and clif bar, I must've
taken in close to 1000 mg sodium from a few minutes before the race to
a couple hours after. I seem to be a salty sweater (stings my eyes; on
a cool breezy day I can accumulate a nice salt crust on my limbs) but
still how deficient could I have been with about a gram consumed?

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the *ratio* of
electrolytes, i.e. too much potassium what with 3 bananas and all that
other [censored]... and the prior night's dinner was pretty potassium-rich,
consisting largely of collard greens and kale and black beans.

Aw hell, this is probably over-thinking it. Maybe the jailbird is
right, I should just give thanks my calves don't cramp more often than
they do, and that unlike him I'm a free man sleeping soundly in my own
bed at night, not keeping one eye open for fear of being violated by my
cellmate.

Quoted message said:

Next time try Beer?

I like the way you think, Dan. It's certainly worth a shot.

Charlie Pendejo said:

I wonder if it could have anything to do with the *ratio* of
electrolytes, i.e. too much potassium what with 3 bananas and all that
other [censored]... and the prior night's dinner was pretty potassium-rich,
consisting largely of collard greens and kale and black beans.

Brazilian cuisine?

FWIW the remedy à la mode against cramps among the em...gentleman
runners here is a magnesium supplement. The popular belief is that it
is more critical than the other three electrolytes (calcium is
plentiful for milk-drinkers and cheese-eaters, and potassium and sodium
are included in all sports drinks) and that a bottleful taken twice a
year or so will prevent a deficiency, which can cause the cramps.

Note that the idea is not to use it as an acute measure on racing day,
and that some magnesium supplements are reported to cause diarrhea as a
side effect.

Anders

anders said:

FWIW the remedy à la mode against cramps among the em...gentleman
runners here is a magnesium supplement. The popular belief is that it

and guess what's the best and tastier magnesium supplement among the ...
well, it's chocolate!

enjoy
m

anders wrote:
cp>> consisting largely of collard greens and kale and black beans.

Quoted message said:

Brazilian cuisine?

Good guess. Actually Mexican, cooked by yours truly; but with no
mention of the chipotle and ancho chiles which season it, there'd be no
way to guess.

Speaking of national cuisines: what's up with Berlusconi and Chirac on
the food of Finland? (Kinda makes me want to visit to see what all the
fuss is about - I was/am genuinely considering a week in your country
after a week in St Pete, though neither is anywhere near certain.)

Quoted message said:

FWIW the remedy à la mode against cramps among the em...
gentleman runners here is a magnesium supplement.

Interesting - thanks! - but I've got that base covered as well, with a
daily supplement containing plenty of Mg.

On 12 Jul 2005 21:34:03 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Rewind . . .

14:30 - good burger & fries & ice cream sundae at ~100 year old soda
fountain; . . .

Charlie, *somebody* needs to say: It was probably the hundred year old
soda. (badabum)

Seriously, though, I am echoing Anders' advice about magnesium. My wife is
allergic to cassein (a milk protein) so without milk in her diet she
supplements calcium. When the calcium gets too high it can mimic magnesium
deficiency *or* if the magnesium gets too by-the-numbers low, she can get
painful cramps while resting. She needed to find a calcium / magnesium
balance. By the way her preferred supplements are as calcium or magnesium
citrate.
--
Daniel
[email hidden]

Daniel said:

It was probably the hundred year old soda. (badabum)

Oof. The joke hurt almost as bad as the cramp. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Seriously, though, I am echoing Anders' advice about magnesium.

OK, but I do get 315 mg Mg daily between my multivitamin and mineral
supplement - most as magnesium aspartate - plus whatever from food. Is
that less than the quantities you and Anders are talking about?

Solgar makes a good citrate mix.

Daniel said:

On 12 Jul 2005 21:34:03 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Rewind . . .

14:30 - good burger & fries & ice cream sundae at ~100 year old soda
fountain; . . .

Charlie, *somebody* needs to say: It was probably the hundred year old
soda. (badabum)

Seriously, though, I am echoing Anders' advice about magnesium. My wife is
allergic to cassein (a milk protein) so without milk in her diet she
supplements calcium. When the calcium gets too high it can mimic magnesium
deficiency *or* if the magnesium gets too by-the-numbers low, she can get
painful cramps while resting. She needed to find a calcium / magnesium
balance. By the way her preferred supplements are as calcium or magnesium
citrate.
--
Daniel
[email hidden]

.... just 1oo years of solitude.

1000 mg best.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Speaking of national cuisines: what's up with Berlusconi and Chirac on
the food of Finland?

European Union business, political powerplay, that kind of thing: A few
years back Berlusconi at last minute went to battle over the Food
Safety Authority which was to be seated in Finland. His famous main
argument was that "the Finns don´t even know what prosciutto is". The
Finns gave in and got the Chemical Authority. Big deal. Anyway, at the
recent opening of the agency Berlusconi was in a mood for gloating: he
congratulated EU Commission President Barroso on being able to taste
culatello instead of smoked reindeer, adding "I´ve been to Finland and
had to endure Finnish food, so I am certainly competent to make
comparisons".

(Berlusconi also boasted that he had "honed up my distant playboy
skills from the distant past to appeal to the Finnish President"...)

Chirac simply picked up a topical subject during a meeting with
Schröder and Putin and his real target was Britain: "After Finland,
Britain is the country where people eat the worst food."

(Naturally enough, his remark gave birth to a spontaneous
British-Finnish solidarity and it was said that the votes of the two
Finnish delegates cost Paris the loss in its bid to host the 2012
Olympics...)

Quoted message said:

(Kinda makes me want to visit to see what all the fuss is about - I
was/am genuinely considering a week in your country after a week in St > Pete, though neither is anywhere near certain.)

If you stay away from what purports or tries too hard to be fancy
restaurant fare and seek out simpler, more traditional food, you´ll
probably do okay. But it´s absolutely true we eat to live, not vice
versa, and the quality of the stuff we buy and eat is impeccable only
as far as food safety is concerned.

I´m afraid I really can´t say one way or the other about whether
Finland would be a nice destination; I live here, that´s all (and I´d
probably be unpatriotic enough to suggest that unless one has a special
interest I could think of more worthwhile ones in the Baltic area). But
should you eventually wish to run in a race while you´re in the
country, I´ll help you with the Finnish racing calendar:-)

Quoted message said:

Interesting - thanks! - but I've got that base covered as well, with a
daily supplement containing plenty of Mg.

FWIW the daily dosage in the brand I´ve heard recommended is
<googling> 350 mg "in highly absorbable citrate form". (The oxide form
has the reputation for going straight through your system...)

Anders

Twittering One said:

Solgar makes a good citrate mix.

Thanks, I like them, take their multi-vite.

Quoted message said:

... just 1oo years of solitude.

_Love in the Time of Cholera_ better yet. :-)

... just 1oo years of solitude.

"Love in the Time of Cholera" better yet.

But the discovery of ice ...

On 14 Jul 2005 20:47:36 -0700, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

. . . magnesium.

OK, but I do get 315 mg Mg daily between my multivitamin and mineral
supplement - most as magnesium aspartate - plus whatever from food. Is
that less than the quantities you and Anders are talking about?

I was speaking anecdotally -- when dear spouse added magnesium, the night
time calf cramping stopped.

Here's something though:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/magnesium/

Some tidbits from that site:

"Magnesium is required for the active transport of ions like potassium and
calcium across cell membranes. Through its role in ion transport systems,
magnesium affects the conduction of nerve impulses, muscle contraction, and
the normal rhythm of the heart."

"Zinc: High doses of zinc in supplement form appear to interfere with the
absorption of magnesium."

"High calcium intake has not been found to affect magnesium balance in most
studies. Inadequate blood magnesium levels are known to result in low blood
calcium levels,..."

I think they recommend 425mg of Magnesium for men over 30 years old.

--
Daniel
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Berlusconi at last minute went to battle over the Food Safety
Authority which was to be seated in Finland. His famous main
argument was that "the Finns don´t even know what prosciutto is".

....which may help explain the odd paucity of Finnish leaders turned
into soap: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1424471.html

Quoted message said:

I´d probably be unpatriotic enough to suggest that unless one has
a special interest I could think of more worthwhile ones in the
Baltic area

I'll assume part of that is that familiarity breeds contempt, just as
surely as absinthe makes the heart grow fonder. I'm constantly
wondering why so many tourists thought *this* would be a place worth
visiting when they could be enjoying an altogether better experience
with friendlier people, cleaner air, lovelier environment, superior
weather, tastier food, etc so many places in Mexico or Canada or even
in the western USA - and at a fraction of the price.

Quoted message said:

I´ll help you with the Finnish racing calendar

Thanks for your offer, Anders. The latest odds show some other options
sneaking ahead of this Russo-Finn itinerary, but we're not counting it
out.