Full marks to Ullrich

Hey, Lance should have waited for Ullrich too :-)

"SM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say

that

Quoted message said:

both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they should conduct themselves.

In article said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say that both he and Lance
have shown other sportsmen and women the way they should conduct themselves.

Tyler was also up at the front helping keep things simma'd down.

KP

--
Remove _me_ for e-mail address

"SM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say that both he and Lance
have shown other sportsmen and women the way they should conduct themselves.

The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless Euskatel rider (was it
Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say that both he and Lance
have shown other sportsmen and women the way they should conduct themselves.

The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless Euskatel rider (was it
Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4". If he loses the tour by
that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

Tyler was also up at the front helping keep things simma'd down.

You are mistaken, Tyler was only grandstanding. Afterall, if Jan had slowed down then Tyler wouldn't
have been able to right to the front since Tyler was sucking wind hanging onto the back of the group
at that point.

Ed

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they

should

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conduct themselves.

The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless Euskatel rider (was it
Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least they could have done is pick
up the lead for a few kilometers. But they didn't. They just hung on his wheel until the finish and
then outsprinted him. Well I hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell wouldn't be.

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before being
called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Quoted message said:

If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too (I forget how much).

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope he wins the Tour de France
again (just not this year...or next year if Lance decides to race 🙂)

Ed-D said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too (I forget how much).

4 seconds. The time bonus is everything. Without it, Mayo's doing ullrich a favor by outprinting him
--- the clock on the group gets triggered sooner.

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope he wins the Tour de France
again (just not this year...or next year if Lance decides to race 🙂)

Ed-D said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they

should

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> conduct themselves.
>

The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless Euskatel rider (was it
Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Quoted message said:

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least they could have done is
pick up the lead for a few kilometers. But they didn't. They just hung on his wheel until the
finish and then outsprinted him. Well I hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell
wouldn't be.

I think, and perhaps you might rewatch this, that Ullrich responded with the idea that Armstrong
was setting the pace. The Basque riders probably could do no more than hang on his wheel for the 6
or so kms. That they were able to spring says more about their short term flexibility than their
ability to set pace over the long haul. Furthermore, they were probably quite motivated by the home
fans at the end.

Quoted message said:

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before
being called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Mayo take advantage? Armstrong crashed him once, nearly crashed him again. Mayo paid a dear price
for riding on Armstrong's wheel the first time. The second time he was unlucky to have Armstrong
just pass him when the pedal problem occurred. My hunch is that he was as out of sorts and panicked
as Armstrong and dug into his reserves. They were good for little until the end.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too (I forget how much).

4 secs between 2nd and 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope he wins the Tour de France
again (just not this year...or next year if Lance decides to race 🙂)

Apparently Hamilton called for them to slow. Give him some credit as well.

Quoted message said:

From: Ken Prager [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Tyler was also up at the front helping keep things simma'd down.

KP

There's never been any question that Tyler is a class act. Bill C

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>> He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to

say

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that

Quoted message said:

>> both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they

should

Quoted message said:

>> conduct themselves.
>>
>
>The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless

Euskatel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>rider (was it Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Quoted message said:

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

could have done is pick up the lead for a few kilometers. But they didn't. They just hung on his
wheel until the finish and then outsprinted him.

Well I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell wouldn't be.

I think, and perhaps you might rewatch this, that Ullrich responded with the idea that Armstrong
was setting the pace. The Basque riders probably could do no more than hang on his wheel for the 6
or so kms.

After watching Mayo fly up Alpe d'Huez I have a hard time believing he "could do no more" than hang
on Ulrich's wheel today.

Quoted message said:

That they were able to spring says more about their short term flexibility than their ability to
set pace over the long haul. Furthermore, they were probably quite motivated by the home fans at
the end.

Well of course. Which is why they figured they would let Ulrich do all the dirty work and then fight
it out amongst each other in the sprint.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before
being called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Mayo take advantage? Armstrong crashed him once, nearly crashed him again. Mayo paid a dear price
for riding on Armstrong's wheel the first time. The second time he was unlucky to have Armstrong
just pass him when the pedal problem occurred. My hunch is that he was as out of sorts and
panicked as Armstrong and dug into his reserves. They were good for little until the end.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too (I forget how much).

4 secs between 2nd and 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope he

wins

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Tour de France again (just not this year...or next year if Lance

decides

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to race 🙂)

Apparently Hamilton called for them to slow. Give him some credit as well.

Right.

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>> He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to

say

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that

Quoted message said:

>> both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they

should

Quoted message said:

>> conduct themselves.
>>
>
>The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless

Euskatel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>rider (was it Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.

I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Quoted message said:

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

could have done is pick up the lead for a few kilometers. But they

didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They just hung on his wheel until the finish and then outsprinted him.

Well I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell wouldn't be.

I think, and perhaps you might rewatch this, that Ullrich responded with the idea that Armstrong
was setting the pace. The Basque riders probably could do no more than hang on his wheel for the 6
or so kms. That they were able to spring says more about their short term flexibility than their
ability to set pace over the long haul. Furthermore, they were probably quite motivated by the
home fans at the end.

Whether that is true or not, it is (or was?) customary (for most of the cycling world) to only
sprint if you helped with the pace. This seems to be one of those customs that is going away these
last few years. These two are fairly young and I am sure they have seen plenty of pros doing the
same thing they did today. It is probably considered "smart racing" to the 20 somehting guys. A lot
of the older guys in the pro ranks have been complaining about the changing ethics since about 10
years ago or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before
being called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Mayo take advantage? Armstrong crashed him once, nearly crashed him again. Mayo paid a dear price
for riding on Armstrong's wheel the first time. The second time he was unlucky to have Armstrong
just pass him when the pedal problem occurred. My hunch is that he was as out of sorts and
panicked as Armstrong and dug into his reserves. They were good for little until the end.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too

(I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forget how much).

4 secs between 2nd and 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope

he wins

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Tour de France again (just not this year...or next year if Lance

decides

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to race 🙂)

Apparently Hamilton called for them to slow. Give him some credit as well.

Quoted message said:

Whether that is true or not, it is (or was?) customary (for most of the cycling world) to only
sprint if you helped with the pace. This seems to

be

Quoted message said:

one of those customs that is going away these last few years. These two

are

Quoted message said:

fairly young and I am sure they have seen plenty of pros doing the same thing they did today. It
is probably considered "smart racing" to the 20 somehting guys. A lot of the older guys in the pro
ranks have been complaining about the changing ethics since about 10 years ago or so.

You mean 10 years ago when everybody was loaded with EPO. Yes, very ethical!!

Maybe you are talking about etiquette?

Ed-D said:

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> >> He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to

say

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that
> >> both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they
should
> >> conduct themselves.
> >>
> >
> >The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless

Euskatel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >rider (was it Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.
>
> I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Quoted message said:

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

could have done is pick up the lead for a few kilometers. But they didn't. They just hung on
his wheel until the finish and then outsprinted him.

Well I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell wouldn't be.

I think, and perhaps you might rewatch this, that Ullrich responded with the idea that Armstrong
was setting the pace. The Basque riders probably could do no more than hang on his wheel for the
6 or so kms.

Quoted message said:

After watching Mayo fly up Alpe d'Huez I have a hard time believing he "could do no more" than
hang on Ulrich's wheel today.

After the Alpe, Mayo went into decline, no? And it did indeed look like he could do little more.
Where was he on Saturday?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That they were able to spring says more about their short term flexibility than their ability to
set pace over the long haul. Furthermore, they were probably quite motivated by the home fans at
the end.

Quoted message said:

Well of course. Which is why they figured they would let Ulrich do all the dirty work and then
fight it out amongst each other in the sprint.

Racin's racin'...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before
being called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Mayo take advantage? Armstrong crashed him once, nearly crashed him again. Mayo paid a dear price
for riding on Armstrong's wheel the first time. The second time he was unlucky to have Armstrong
just pass him when the pedal problem occurred. My hunch is that he was as out of sorts and
panicked as Armstrong and dug into his reserves. They were good for little until the end.

Quoted message said:

> If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too (I forget how much).

4 secs between 2nd and 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope he

wins

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Tour de France again (just not this year...or next year if Lance

decides

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to race 🙂)

Apparently Hamilton called for them to slow. Give him some credit as well.

Quoted message said:

Right.

Nick Burns said:

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"Keith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> >> He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to

say

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that
> >> both he and Lance have shown other sportsmen and women the way they
should
> >> conduct themselves.
> >>
> >
> >The same of which cannot be said for Mayo and that other classless

Euskatel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >rider (was it Zebeldia?). What a bunch of punks.
>
> I think they couldn't do any better today, but outsprinting Ullrich for 4".

Quoted message said:

Please. Ulrich was seriously hurting for parts of that climb. The least

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

could have done is pick up the lead for a few kilometers. But they

didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They just hung on his wheel until the finish and then outsprinted him.

Well I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hope the Basques are proud of them. I sure as hell wouldn't be.

I think, and perhaps you might rewatch this, that Ullrich responded with the idea that Armstrong
was setting the pace. The Basque riders probably could do no more than hang on his wheel for the
6 or so kms. That they were able to spring says more about their short term flexibility than
their ability to set pace over the long haul. Furthermore, they were probably quite motivated by
the home fans at the end.

Quoted message said:

Whether that is true or not, it is (or was?) customary (for most of the cycling world) to only
sprint if you helped with the pace. This seems to be one of those customs that is going away these
last few years. These two are fairly young and I am sure they have seen plenty of pros doing the
same thing they did today. It is probably considered "smart racing" to the 20 somehting guys. A
lot of the older guys in the pro ranks have been complaining about the changing ethics since about
10 years ago or so.

Could you find me a quote where Ullrich feels robbed? And, yes there are new ethics.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, is it just me or did Mayo look like he wanted to take advantage of Lance's crash before
being called back by Hamilton and Ulrich?

Mayo take advantage? Armstrong crashed him once, nearly crashed him again. Mayo paid a dear price
for riding on Armstrong's wheel the first time. The second time he was unlucky to have Armstrong
just pass him when the pedal problem occurred. My hunch is that he was as out of sorts and
panicked as Armstrong and dug into his reserves. They were good for little until the end.

Quoted message said:

> If he loses the tour by that margin, Mayo will probably live to regret it all his career.

Quoted message said:

It's more than four seconds because there is a time bonus involved too

(I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forget how much).

4 secs between 2nd and 3rd?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, Ulrich earned my respect today. He's a worthy champion. I hope

he wins

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Tour de France again (just not this year...or next year if Lance

decides

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to race 🙂)

Apparently Hamilton called for them to slow. Give him some credit as well.

Nick Burns said:

Whether that is true or not, it is (or was?) customary (for most of the cycling world) to only
sprint if you helped with the pace. This seems to be one of those customs that is going away these
last few years. These two are fairly young and I am sure they have seen plenty of pros doing the
same thing they did today. It is probably considered "smart racing" to the 20 somehting guys. A
lot of the older guys in the pro ranks have been complaining about the changing ethics since about
10 years ago or so.

A number of years ago I was at a clinic given by ex-Euro pro Joe Parkin when the subject of
sprinting after sitting in came up. This concept of sprinting honor does not exist and never has. If
someone sits on your wheel and comes around at the end it is your fault for not being smart or
strong enough to drop them. If it happens because you have GC concerns then too bad for you.

He made it very clear that he never rode for a director who would not have skinned him alive of he
had been able to come around someone after not pulling and declined out of some sense of honor. You
would only do that if the placing had no value, i.e. you don't sprint from the autobus.

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

A number of years ago I was at a clinic given by ex-Euro pro Joe Parkin

Joe who?

Quoted message said:

when the subject of sprinting after sitting in came up. This concept of sprinting honor does not
exist and never has. If someone sits on your wheel and comes around at the end it is your fault for
not being smart or strong enough to drop them. If it happens because you have GC concerns then too
bad for you.

He made it very clear that he never rode for a director who would not have skinned him alive of he
had been able to come around someone after not pulling and declined out of some sense of honor. You
would only do that if the placing had no value, i.e. you don't sprint from the autobus.

Sounds like his poor ethics didn't help him make a name for himseld.

Quoted message said:

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

"SM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

He proved today that he is a true sportsman... actually you have to say that both he and Lance
have shown other sportsmen and women the way they should conduct themselves.

sorry to be unsporting but i reckon he should have kept going! lances mistake in riding too close
to the crowd caused him to fall, and ullrich was lucky not too fall over lances bike too. the
crash also resulted in a loss of rythm for ullrich which makes a difference on the bigger gears he
pushes on climbs

in the end ullrich not only lost the stage but also the 20s stage winner prize - incidently is that
prize awarded for the time trial stages

smokymcpot said:

in the end ullrich not only lost the stage but also the 20s stage winner prize - incidently is
that prize awarded for the time trial stages

I believe there is NO time bonus for TT win. (Last year there wasn't, I doubt the rules
have changed.)

Mark Janeba

Bob Schwartz said:

Nick Burns said:

Whether that is true or not, it is (or was?) customary (for most of the cycling world) to only
sprint if you helped with the pace. This seems to be one of those customs that is going away
these last few years. These two are fairly young and I am sure they have seen plenty of pros
doing the same thing they did today. It is probably considered "smart racing" to the 20
somehting guys. A lot of the older guys in the pro ranks have been complaining about the
changing ethics since about 10 years ago or so.

A number of years ago I was at a clinic given by ex-Euro pro Joe Parkin when the subject of
sprinting after sitting in came up. This concept of sprinting honor does not exist and never has.
If someone sits on your wheel and comes around at the end it is your fault for not being smart or
strong enough to drop them. If it happens because you have GC concerns then too bad for you.

Yes. It is up to the non-sprinters to drop the sprinters, pure and simple.

Quoted message said:

He made it very clear that he never rode for a director who would not have skinned him alive of he
had been able to come around someone after not pulling and declined out of some sense of honor.
You would only do that if the placing had no value, i.e. you don't sprint from the autobus.

As best I've ever been able to tell, "sprinting honor" only holds place for _small_ training rides,
and even then not always. I've never figured out why some folks think they are obligated to help
someone else win the race. Some amateurs can only be amateurs (aside from the obvious natural talent
issues) because a pro DS would fire them for being so stupid. Who was the rank domestique that
outsprinted Bugno after being bluntly commanded to do nothing but sit on Bugno's wheel for something
like 10 k before the line?