A reasonable article

A classic example of the ones they put in around Sydney are the new ones alongside the Rhodes shopping centre.

They have a dotted line marking the car space - barely wide enough for the car itself to fit into, then a solid line 1m further across. The space in between is allegedly for bikes. The "bike lane" fits perfectly into the door zone.

It's lip service at the extreme.

When they're not doing this sort of thing, they're doing "shared pathways", which are a euphemism for footpaths.

It's bloody stupid. All we really want is a wider kerbside lane.

Regards,

Suzy

aeek said:

'Why commuters won't get on their bikes -SMH rego required'

For future reference:

http://www.bugmenot.com/view.php?url=www.smh.com.au

I have a personal gripe about those 15cm right angle concrete gutters edging 99.9999% of the roads out there.

Alot of commuting is spent riding alongside these things & when things go wrong it only leaves one direction to swerve to (well 2 really but I don't consider 'going down' as an option).
Once made the attempt to jump it with a view to use the adjacent footpath for an exit strategy, but didn’t make the height I needed so I went for the face plant (only problem with taking evasive action with rouge motorists is that you still come off but they continue on as they consider that you brought yourself down- not their problem).

It's ironic in this day & age of saftey, that the biggest problem I have is impacting with all these sharp edged traffic advisory signs. Their placement & proximity to the edge of the road (where the bulk of soft bodied cyclists & pedestrians are) is asking for an injury.

At least in roman times they built their roads for all users - horses, carriges & pedestrains. Now its motorised traffic only.
I don't want to say that pedestrains have to share the same space as cars on a 'road', but how about alittle consideration for encompassing all means of traffic in the design. If I could easliy walk everywhere I would, for example.

ranting over, ...... .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "aeek" == aeek <[email hidden]> writes:

aeek> 'Why commuters won't get on their bikes -SMH rego required'
aeek> (http://tinyurl.com/aucvp)

aeek> On the problems "shared" parking bikelanes.

Shared parking lanes are the invention of Satan, second only to shared
paths IMO.

I'm all for encouraging cycling and the figures don't lie. One need
only look at St Kilda Road and the shared parking bike lane there. It's
bloody dangerous yet it's given people the confidence to get out on
their bikes because they've got a bit of road that's ``theirs.'' More
cyclists on the road means increased safety for cyclists AND motorists
(amazingly enough).

So in that context bike lanes are a good think? Maybe so but I think
we're tackling the wrong problem. You look at the VicRoads website
about cycling or BV (surprise surprise) and it's clear they're reacting
to what people tell them. More bike lanes = more cyclists. I reckon
that's fear and ignorance talking though. Bike lanes are only useful in
separating same direction traffic from bicycles. Funnily enough the
safest on road cycling you can do is same direction cycling with
traffic. So what are bicycle lanes mitigating against? Add to that
that far too many bicycle lanes peter out before a junction, the most
dangerous place for a cyclist, and who the hell are we kidding?

The increased safety that bicycle lanes bring about seem to be more a
function of getting more cyclists on the street than any innate property
of bicycle lanes.

The biggest issue facing a new cyclist is lack of knowledge. Picture a
thirty something person who's inspired to jack the car and get on a
bike. This person probably hasn't been on a bike since he or she
acquired a car licence and maybe never road in traffic. Easy peasy,
just hug the kerb as tight as you can to stay out the way of that REALLY
DANGEROUS TRAFFIC, wear a helmet so you're totally safe if you come off
and it'll be right.

How on earth is this person going get get the knowledge they need to
ride safely in traffic? It's not like there's an abundance of
organisations offering coaching in these matters is it? I mean anyone
can ride a bike can't they?

It seems to me that a lot more could be achieved by implementing a media
campaign informing all road users of the relative risks of cycling in
traffic and the correct manner in which one should do so. Something
along the lines of ``Always ride a meter out from the kerb or parked
cars. If the lane's too narrow for cars to pass, take the middle. Obey
all road rules. Cycling is safer than driving.'' Back it up with
quality information and maybe some courses and you'd open up all roads
to all cyclists.

Not only would this inform potential cyclists, it'd inform all other
road users as well.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Marx SS said:

I have a personal gripe about those 15cm right angle concrete gutters edging 99.9999% of the roads out there.

Alot of commuting is spent riding alongside these things & when things go wrong it only leaves one direction to swerve to (well 2 really but I don't consider 'going down' as an option).
Once made the attempt to jump it with a view to use the adjacent footpath for an exit strategy, but didn’t make the height I needed so I went for the face plant (only problem with taking evasive action with rouge motorists is that you still come off but they continue on as they consider that you brought yourself down- not their problem).

It's ironic in this day & age of saftey, that the biggest problem I have is impacting with all these sharp edged traffic advisory signs. Their placement & proximity to the edge of the road (where the bulk of soft bodied cyclists & pedestrians are) is asking for an injury.

At least in roman times they built their roads for all users - horses, carriges & pedestrains. Now its motorised traffic only.
I don't want to say that pedestrains have to share the same space as cars on a 'road', but how about alittle consideration for encompassing all means of traffic in the design. If I could easliy walk everywhere I would, for example.

ranting over, ...... .

Na, rant happily away. You've hit the nail on the head, roads are now badly designed & only cater for one mode of traffic. Last year I attended a LATM (Local Area Traffic Management) Seminar put on by BV. Attended by several dozen traffic engineers. Even though the seminar was about "building bridges" and comprehending cyclists needs, the *group think* thing going on was frightening.

suzyj said:

A classic example of the ones they put in around Sydney are the new ones alongside the Rhodes shopping centre.

They have a dotted line marking the car space - barely wide enough for the car itself to fit into, then a solid line 1m further across. The space in between is allegedly for bikes. The "bike lane" fits perfectly into the door zone.

It's lip service at the extreme.

When they're not doing this sort of thing, they're doing "shared pathways", which are a euphemism for footpaths.

It's bloody stupid. All we really want is a wider kerbside lane.

Regards,

Suzy

Why do I always find myself agreeing with you on these issues? Probably 'cos I ride everyday to work in Sydney as well...

All I want is to be able to use the most direct roads and get to where I'm going, safely - preferably without impeding anyone else's ability to do the same. Wider lanes on main/secondary roads is the simplest solution. I don't want to be dodging children, dogs and goodness-knows-what-else on a "shared" path that you have to stop for every cross-street.

Who needs a "Bike network"? It's already there, outside your front door!

Ritch

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "ritcho" == ritcho <[email hidden]> writes:

ritcho> Who needs a "Bike network"? It's already there, outside your
ritcho> front door!

Amen! (does that count as a ``me too'' post?)
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

aeek said:

I feel spoilt, the ones I remember in Adelaide actually worked because they were wide enough to ride outside of door reach. Many of them were shared bike/bus lanes during peak, wide enough so each had their own space. Hmm, not really shared then..

I dont know which part of Adelaide you saw. There is only one or two back streets like that. For the most part the the bike lanes in Adelaide are only effective during peak periods and other times cars can park in them. They are tight up against the curb, full of depressed manhole covers and [censored]. For the most part i avoid riding in them when ever possible.

aeek said:

And now, in Canberra, almost all the onroad bikelanes are on no parking roads.
Come to think of it, there are a few places were the lanes go past existing parking bays.
A naive cyclist, riding on the left of the lane would be putting themselves at risk.

I love the way Canberra has set itself for cycling. Hope I can move there soon. 🙂

jcjordan said:

I dont know which part of Adelaide you saw. There is only one or two back streets like that. For the most part the the bike lanes in Adelaide are only effective during peak periods and other times cars can park in them. They are tight up against the curb, full of depressed manhole covers and [censored]. For the most part i avoid riding in them when ever possible.

Partridge St, Glenelg and a mainish Rd out Magill way.
I tend to ride Brighton-Adelaide via The Crescent, Brighton Rd, Oaklands Rd, Daws Rd, Springbank Rd, Belair Rd, Unley Rd cos there are bends - weee!!!!!!!!
A variation for the return.

Quoted post said:

I love the way Canberra has set itself for cycling. Hope I can move there soon. 🙂

I really miss the Adelaide Grid, so many options. Between suburbs in Canberra its the main roads, or the shared paths. The unlit shared path network can be impossible to find the suburb exit if you're not a local to that area. Most suburban roads are curved beyond reason to discourage through traffic. Peds get killed on the main roads after a night out cos they don't have footpaths,
but they can't navigate the shared paths.
(Central & Old North Canberra excepted.)

[quote="aeek"]Partridge St, Glenelg and a mainish Rd out Magill way.
I tend to ride Brighton-Adelaide via The Crescent, Brighton Rd, Oaklands Rd, Daws Rd, Springbank Rd, Belair Rd, Unley Rd cos there are bends - weee!!!!!!!!
A variation for the return.
QUOTE]

Those areas are not to bad. If you ever come back to Adelaide try and avoid Fullerton Road between Old Belair and Glen Osmond. It shocking, more like Pave then ashphalt. Also Paynham Road going north (south is not to bad) is even worse. Unfortunatly this is my way to work so I have to put up with it a couple of times a week.

Guess when I get to Canberra I will need to learn my way around quick and get some good lights. 😄

jcjordan said:

If you ever come back to Adelaide try and avoid Fullerton Road between Old Belair and Glen Osmond. It shocking, more like Pave then ashphalt. Also Paynham Road going north (south is not to bad) is even worse.

Next TDU I hope.
Ridden both, better than some of the tree rooted paths here I think.
Although riding on holiday time, lighter traffic?, so I could dodge the worst of it.

Nothing in Canberra compares to the linear park wooden singletrack!
A friend of mine commutes that way, I don't think I could cope.

Euan said:

... Add to that that far too many bicycle lanes peter out before a junction, the most dangerous place for a cyclist, and who the hell are we kidding?

aah, my favourite too. if only politicians could make pollution/taxes and BigBrother dissapear as conveniently as bikes apparently do near an intersection. grrrr

Quoted message said:

The biggest issue facing a new cyclist is lack of knowledge. Picture a
thirty something person who's inspired to jack the car and get on a
bike. This person probably hasn't been on a bike since he or she
acquired a car licence and maybe never road in traffic. Easy peasy,
just hug the kerb as tight as you can to stay out the way of that REALLY
DANGEROUS TRAFFIC, wear a helmet so you're totally safe if you come off
and it'll be right.

How on earth is this person going get get the knowledge they need to
ride safely in traffic? It's not like there's an abundance of
organisations offering coaching in these matters is it? I mean anyone
can ride a bike can't they?

It seems to me that a lot more could be achieved by implementing a media
campaign informing all road users of the relative risks of cycling in
traffic and the correct manner in which one should do so. Something
along the lines of ``Always ride a meter out from the kerb or parked
cars. If the lane's too narrow for cars to pass, take the middle. Obey
all road rules. Cycling is safer than driving.'' Back it up with
quality information and maybe some courses and you'd open up all roads
to all cyclists.

Not only would this inform potential cyclists, it'd inform all other
road users as well.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

I'm 34 and started cycling for the first time in my adult life last April.
What we really need to do is promote a.b. The amount of good advice I got
here is astonishing. I did the dumb things too...seat too low, too close to
the kerb, all the usual suspects. I learned. It would have taken a lot
longer than it has without the input from here.

So...how do we start promoting a.b? Jerseys and t-shirts? Promotional CDs of
Dutchy and Gags singing Simon and Garfunkel covers?

Resound said:

Quoted message said:

The biggest issue facing a new cyclist is lack of knowledge. Picture a
thirty something person who's inspired to jack the car and get on a
bike. This person probably hasn't been on a bike since he or she
acquired a car licence and maybe never road in traffic. Easy peasy,
just hug the kerb as tight as you can to stay out the way of that REALLY
DANGEROUS TRAFFIC, wear a helmet so you're totally safe if you come off
and it'll be right.

How on earth is this person going get get the knowledge they need to
ride safely in traffic? It's not like there's an abundance of
organisations offering coaching in these matters is it? I mean anyone
can ride a bike can't they?

It seems to me that a lot more could be achieved by implementing a media
campaign informing all road users of the relative risks of cycling in
traffic and the correct manner in which one should do so. Something
along the lines of ``Always ride a meter out from the kerb or parked
cars. If the lane's too narrow for cars to pass, take the middle. Obey
all road rules. Cycling is safer than driving.'' Back it up with
quality information and maybe some courses and you'd open up all roads
to all cyclists.

Not only would this inform potential cyclists, it'd inform all other
road users as well.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

I'm 34 and started cycling for the first time in my adult life last April.
What we really need to do is promote a.b. The amount of good advice I got
here is astonishing. I did the dumb things too...seat too low, too close to
the kerb, all the usual suspects. I learned. It would have taken a lot
longer than it has without the input from here.

So...how do we start promoting a.b? Jerseys and t-shirts? Promotional CDs of
Dutchy and Gags singing Simon and Garfunkel covers?

I think we discussed a design for an AUS.BICYCLE cycling shirt a while
back but I don't know what became of the idea.

Marty

Resound said:

I'm 34 and started cycling for the first time in my adult life last April.
What we really need to do is promote a.b. The amount of good advice I got
here is astonishing. I did the dumb things too...seat too low, too close to
the kerb, all the usual suspects. I learned. It would have taken a lot
longer than it has without the input from here.

So...how do we start promoting a.b? Jerseys and t-shirts? Promotional CDs of
Dutchy and Gags singing Simon and Garfunkel covers?

But see you're one of the bright ones, or at least someone who knows he don't know it all ;-)

There's a lot of people out there who don't think any skills are required to ride a bike and 'cause they don't know that they won't ask for advice. It's not their fault, it's all part of the wonderful world we live in where bicycles are toys and riding them's child's play.
--
Cheers
Euan

Resound said:

So...how do we start promoting a.b? Jerseys and t-shirts? Promotional CDs of Dutchy and Gags singing Simon and Garfunkel covers?

shudders...

i aint heard Gags sing but i think the jerseys are the way to go

I'll do the artwork if others wanna org the production?

F"No Garfunkel"Dutch

Euan said:

along the lines of ``Always ride a meter out from the kerb or parked
cars. If the lane's too narrow for cars to pass, take the middle. Obey
all road rules. Cycling is safer than driving.'' Back it up with

Obey all road rules - it helps to know what they are, and that they are not quite the same as the ones for cars. This isn't helped by BikeEd teaching the kiddies the "car" road rules, or the readily available road rules being aimed at learner drivers.

aeek said:

Obey all road rules - it helps to know what they are, and that they are not quite the same as the ones for cars. This isn't helped by BikeEd teaching the kiddies the "car" road rules, or the readily available road rules being aimed at learner drivers.

Quite.

Differences like hook turns at any junction, tackling roundabouts and undertaking are three that spring to mind without much thought.

The only reason I knew about them is because I specifically looked them up before getting on a bike. I'm betting there are plenty out there who are not as dilligent.

Also practical demonstrations about the importance of highly visible clothing, lighting etc. I'm of the opinion that a cyclists first defence is to be seen.
--
Cheers
EuanB

EuanB said:

aeek said:

Obey all road rules - it helps to know what they are, and that they are
not quite the same as the ones for cars. This isn't helped by BikeEd
teaching the kiddies the "car" road rules, or the readily available
road rules being aimed at learner drivers.

Quite.

Differences like hook turns at any junction, tackling roundabouts and
undertaking are three that spring to mind without much thought.

The only reason I knew about them is because I specifically looked them
up before getting on a bike. I'm betting there are plenty out there who
are not as dilligent.

Also practical demonstrations about the importance of highly visible
clothing, lighting etc. I'm of the opinion that a cyclists first
defence is to be seen.
--
Cheers
EuanB

My bike shop gave me a little brochure on recycled paper, with the road
rules for cyclists, including references.

Tam