splayed feet

Quoted message said:

and 3 pair of Nikes>

I'm telling you... DUMP THE NIKES!

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Start here:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.running/msg/a2e49a406c8c4eb2?hl=en

Or don't if that's too many words.

So I presently run with subtly-to-clownishly splayed feet. Certain
shoes exacerbate it, as does the track. I'm sure it also interacts
with the left-to-right grade of a road: much better to have my right
foot lower than higher if I can't find level ground or nice uneven
dirt/grass.

These conditions effect all of us not just those with splayed feet. You
need to find the right shoe that does not exacerbate your problem. To
blame the entire Asics brand or any brand, and yes this includes Nike,
is not valid. The model may not be working for you but I'll bet there is
a model in the line that will work.

That being said, looking at your feet and wear pattern, how to do you
classify your foot strike? Neutral, supinate or some degree of
pronation? You are talking about brands rather models so I wonder if
you're not spinning your wheels. Maybe your using the wrong shoe in all
brands.

Quoted message said:

What I plan to do about it:

[a] Try to keep feet straighter whether running, walking, sitting,
standing. Consciously rotate the heels out.

Won't work so don't try it. If you screw around this way you will likely
incur different problems from using different muscles. Stay with your
natural foot fall and try to find the correct shoe. An assumption of
course - you are in the wrong shoe and your problem(s) is doing to much
to soon for your current conditioning.

Quoted message said:

[c] Avoid running hard on track curves at least for now. Move
everything but the 100m stuff to the park and run by time. If I find
myself at a track and it's emptyish, I might try running clockwise
like
the Aussies and see if that's better.

Avoid hills AND speed while recovering from injuries.

Quoted message said:

[d] Continue stretching: for the upper legs I do 1 or 2 for hams,
quads, wall lean with feet crossed for ITB/TFL/maybe glute med?,
sometimes cobbler's stretch, seated groin thingy. Most of these after
most runs. And foam rolling quads & ITB, and hams/glutes/hips with
rubber ball, most runs.

Proper stretching works for most. For your ass and hips etc I find a
football with the broader surface better than a rubber ball. The surface
area for a ball will often miss or in some cases be too much pressure.

Quoted message said:

[e] Never eat another fish taco from the place down the street. Uggh.

Never pee into the front of a fan. 😉

Quoted message said:

Doug, this is but one of the ways I think I've managed to hurt myself.
Others include simply ramping up mileage too fast before my body was
adapted to running, and too many miles run too hard especially on
pavement downhills and especially in the immediate wake of all-out 1/2
marathons and especially with no weekly rest day.

All recipes for disaster. The running fever and type A behavior(and
that redlining disease) must be tempered or you will spend all your
time on the disabled list The oldest and sanest running paradigm is
base, power, speed. Spend some months on a solid pain free base. Slowly
add in some significant hills and lastly speed. I know 10% seems to be
the standard rate of improvement but my experience tells me 10% is too
much for most. I would suggest 5% especially if one has a history of
problems.

In essence you're injured and seem to be taking the shotgun approach. As
simplistic yet difficult as it sounds, you need to find your
problem(wrong shoes, bad form, too much) and go from there. If you don't
find the cause you will go in circles.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

Won't work so don't try it. If you screw around this way you will likely

incur different problems from using different muscles.>

Sorry DumbFuk, it does help. In the beginning you'll risk injury, but
eventually the muscles (the correct ones) will get stronger. This
worked for me. I've noticed some days I pronate more. some less, and I
wear the same shoes all the time. I believe wearing different shoes can
hurt the problem.

f.) I plan on keeping these silly deformities of mine, to myself.

BTW, I ran in Asics 2000 series for over 10 years because of my
pronation (yes, it caused knee injurys until I went to Asics) and
recently I purchaed my first pair of non MC shoes NB 807's, and lo and
behold, I no longer pronate. Why I don't know, but the little bit of
pronating I still do is not injurious. Cured? I don't know.

Hey Doug, better grab two or three Heinekens and settle in for an
ultra-distance post.

DF said:

To blame the entire Asics brand or any brand, and yes this
includes Nike, is not valid

looking at your feet and wear pattern, how to do you classify your
foot strike? Neutral, supinate or some degree of pronation? You are
talking about brands rather models so I wonder if you're not spinning
your wheels. Maybe your using the wrong shoe in all brands.

The Asics/Nike emphasis is as always for Pippy's benefit.

I do know the difference between a pair of shoes and a brand of shoes.
My first running shoes 2 yrs ago were Asics 1080 which seemed to serve
me well (just lucked into 'em at a bad chain store with no service).

Quoted message said:

From quick trial at running store might've been happy with 2003 DS

Trainer too, bought Nike Span Triax instead.

I believe all my other shoes are working for me, excluding the Waffle
Racers for a moment - they're great too but can't run any pavement in
them due to forefoot callous.

I'm *not* currently injured, and haven't been since last Oct. Took a
couple months off this winter (not cold-wussiness so much as
post-overtrained-marathon amotivation) but still we're talking 5+
months having built to 50-ish mpw. Which also supports that my shoes
are working OK. Plus FWIW my feet splay less in the others, though
there's still degrees and the Brooks are second-worst.

Wear patterns: need a trained eye. I'm real easy on shoes; walking
shoes last forever, don't see much wear on outsoles of running shoes
after 300-500 miles though I retire them anyway (sometimes early due to
upper or heel cup fabric falling apart), and it's not real uneven
AFAICT.

Maybe just a bit more wear on the outside (lateral) front of a retired
pair Nike Span Triax than from under the toe or ball, surprisingly; but
then it's softer rubber on the lateral side. And I've lost weight and
moved footstrike forward since those shoes.

Maybe a hair more wear under the ball of 250 mile Racer ST's but hard
to say.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[a] Try to keep feet straighter whether running, walking, sitting,
standing. Consciously rotate the heels out.

Won't work so don't try it. If you screw around this way you will likely
incur different problems from using different muscles. Stay with your
natural foot fall and try to find the correct shoe. An assumption of
course - you are in the wrong shoe and your problem(s) is doing to much
to soon for your current conditioning.

Do we have a fundamental difference of philosophy here, Doug: you're
suggesting never try to consciously "fix" or improve my running motion,
rather find the shoe which minimizes the problem? I respect your
experience but can't see it that way. If I can stand well or badly,
sit well or slouch, walk gracefully or jerky, et cetera - and can
improve these things with time and mindful effort - then surely I have
some influence over whether I run well or badly.

Or is it more specific to this particular problem of splayed feet?

Quoted message said:

Avoid hills AND speed while recovering from injuries.

Check. Happily I am not currently recovering from injury.

Quoted message said:

Proper stretching works for most. For your ass and hips etc I find
a football with the broader surface better than a rubber ball.

Thanks. But you're going to tittilate Pippy with your knowledge of
what works best for *my* ass and hips. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Never pee into the front of a fan. 😉

Check.

Quoted message said:

The running fever and type A behavior (and that redlining disease)
must be tempered or you will spend all your time on the disabled
list.

It's funny, I am much much less type A outside of running. I'd even
say that running has largely put my in touch with my type A side, even
as it's also fostered relaxation and nurtured my type B side.

Quoted message said:

The oldest and sanest running paradigm is base, power, speed.
Spend some months on a solid pain free base. Slowly add in some
significant hills and lastly speed.

Last couple years it's been more about "woo-hoo, this is novel and
great" and "how long a stretch can I put together without injuring
myself". This year I'm starting to struggle more with this question of
periodization, how to structure a season.

Even if I accept "base then power then speed" there's more to work out:
how many months of base before folding in how many hills; do strides or
tempos or anything other than LSD during base; etc. It's easy to find
respectable opinion supporting many different permutations and ratios.
I do believe, for me at least, there's something to the notion
"training monotony = injury factor, so mix it up a bit".

Quoted message said:

In essence you're injured and seem to be taking the shotgun approach.

Injured: not at present. Shotgun: yeah, largely guilty.

Quoted message said:

As simplistic yet difficult as it sounds, you need to find your
problem (wrong shoes, bad form, too much) and go from there.

And aside from my shotgun approach, another difficulty in sorting this
out is that I've had a multiplicity of sins going on simultaneously,
which would have made it tougher to sort out even if I were better at
patient and linear detective work. Too much (mileage, speedwork,
intensity) too soon, too many downhills, crowned roads, splayed feet,
initially overweight, initially worse form, too fast on slow days,
insufficient flexibility and underwhelming core strength, ignorant of
thine recovery, ad nauseum.

Could be wrong but I think I've tamed all but a few factors. And
presently I'd like to address the splayed feet, whether that means
conquering or coming to terms.

OK, hopefully this filled in some of the missing details and you have a
better idea where I'm at.

Knee aligned, when bent,
aligned over foot.

Charles,

Here's a post from sometime back.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

In article (Nick Williams) said:

Hi there everyone,

Posting this on behalf of a friend who is a beginning runner. She's having
some pains in her ankles after her morning runs - the pain is localised to
either side of the Achilles tendon, a little below the top of her running
shoe, the same on both feet.

Since it's the same on both feet, I don't imagine that it's a injury that
she's done herself in the acute sense, and she's not really doing enough
miles for overuse to be a live issue (only about 5-10 per week), so I'm
wondering whether it might be something to do with her shoes, and her
running style.

I had a look at a couple of pairs of her shoes, including her running shoes,
and she has this pretty unusual wear pattern - the outside edges of the
respective heels are excessively worn, as are the inside edges in the
forefoot area...

She walks with her toes pointed slightly outwards, and has a reasonable
arch. (Yeah, I know, loads of random information, but I don't really know
much about this stuff - I'm lucky enough to be an almost perfectly neutral
striker).

Can anyone give me any advice on what I could suggest to her? She seems to
be quite enjoying running, and it would be a shame for this to spoil it.
Specifically, should she be on the lookout for a particular type of shoe,
like maybe on of the motion-control ones?

Many thanks for your advice in advance... Cheers, Nick. [email hidden]

Great random info Nick. The splay foot has to do with the rotation of
the hips ...or if she stands with knees pushed back (hyperextended,
often called sabre legs) the quads tighten and the tightening rotates
the hips outward and there-fore the splay of foot. I know it well.
Some friends of mind looking for me in a small Moroccan border town's
Marketplace asked if any one had seen the tall guy with black hair.
"Oh Charlie Chaplan, yes he went that way." It was then that the
Little Tramp's splay foot walk in me was identified.

In standing, have her rotate her heels outward so foot is straight
ahead. The hip follows the heel. Then have her bring her feet together
so that they are aligned under her shoulders.

Rolfing, deep tissue massageo the quad area might be some ways of
getting the splay minimized. Mine is still there after 20 years, but
not as severe as it once was.

Also she is overstriding, the wear on the outside heel. Have her keep
her eyes on the horizon rather than looking down. Also if she will
lean forward from the sternum a quarter of an inch she'll stop landing
on the back of her heel.

Let us know how it goes.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Mike Hunt said:

Pendejo is a vulgar term of abuse in the Spanish language.

Then it's fortunate I speak American, ain't it.

PEN - dee -joh

OG> Here's a post from sometime back.

Thanks Oz. I had googled and found the one you posted under "Some
thoughts on Splay Feet \ / & Bunions", but not the story wherein you
play the part of Chaplan - nice image!

I'll continue foam rolling my quads most days, and trying to be mindful
of foot rotation whenever I can. I spend around 35 minutes each
weekday on the subway, and have usually stood with my feet
intentionally in a right-anglish V for balance: that'll be one habit to
break.

Lucky for me, my wife's been a massage therapist for a year and change
now - though I only get a freebie if she has time & energy after her
paying gigs and our schedules coincide. I know nothing about rolfing
but will look into it.

Do you have a favorite piriformis stretch? Is that sucker too deep to
self-massage?

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey Doug, better grab two or three Heinekens and settle in for an
ultra-distance post.

Gulp, two down.

Quoted message said:

The Asics/Nike emphasis is as always for Pippy's benefit.

Got it, but he can be amused by reading the word titillate or when he
soils himself with damp flatulence.

Quoted message said:

I'm *not* currently injured, and haven't been since last Oct.

Mea culpa, not sure what took me off in that direction.

Quoted message said:

Took a
couple months off this winter (not cold-wussiness so much as
post-overtrained-marathon amotivation)

Whew, I was afraid you and Lance had drank from the same cup. 😉

but still we're talking 5+

Quoted message said:

months having built to 50-ish mpw. Which also supports that my shoes
are working OK. Plus FWIW my feet splay less in the others,

This is very common with every shoe. All cushion shoes don't cushion the
same; all motion control don't control, yada, yada

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Won't work so don't try it. If you screw around this way you will
likely
incur different problems from using different muscles. Stay with your
natural foot fall and try to find the correct shoe. An assumption of
course - you are in the wrong shoe and your problem(s) is doing to
much
to soon for your current conditioning.

Do we have a fundamental difference of philosophy here, Doug: you're
suggesting never try to consciously "fix" or improve my running
motion,
rather find the shoe which minimizes the problem?

Not exactly what I meant but I was a little brief. Any and all form
changes in general need to integrated slowly when appropriate. Many
people start reading books and/or tuning in to r.r and decide to go from
150 steps to 180 steps while throwing away their motion control shoes to
become a barefoot runner and run down hills faster in there first month
of running. I'm not suggesting you, but in general people making too
many form changes at once when they ramp up miles or intensity.

More specifically, if your feet splay, and have been for all the years
of your life, I think it is risky to just try to control just that
factor. I think the easiest form change to make which corrects many/most
problems and the least likely to cause injuries is erect/upright form.
(Ah yes, another word for Pippy to snicker at.). Running more upright
will get one to a mid-foot strike and likely arrive at a more compact
stride. It is still change and has some risks.

Quoted message said:

Thanks. But you're going to titillate Pippy with your knowledge of
what works best for *my* ass and hips. ;-)

He's jealous. He needs conjugal visits to the men's slammer to get some
attention.

Quoted message said:

It's funny, I am much much less type A outside of running. I'd even
say that running has largely put my in touch with my type A side, even
as it's also fostered relaxation and nurtured my type B side.

I have a dear shrink friend that is the most docile guy you would ever
bump into. Once he straps on a pair of running kicks, he goes from type
B- to A+. The sad part is he has spent the last two years injured cuz
he can't control things.

Quoted message said:

Last couple years it's been more about "woo-hoo, this is novel and
great" and "how long a stretch can I put together without injuring
myself". This year I'm starting to struggle more with this question
of
periodization, how to structure a season.

And the adjustment never stops. What works for a year or two may
suddenly or gradually stop working. I race Mar/Apr, rest a few weeks(I'm
resting while most are racing), race July, rest a few weeks, race Sept,
rest a few weeks. I'm into three macro cycles. Younger sturdier, faster
recovers can get by on less.

Quoted message said:

Even if I accept "base then power then speed" there's more to work
out:
how many months of base before folding in how many hills; do strides
or
tempos or anything other than LSD during base; etc.

All good questions. For the new person these need to be separate and
distinct. Without a strong base jumping into hills and/or speed gets
them rapidly on the injured reserve list or burning out. After one has
been running for a few years, and maintains a yearly base the lines
starts to get foggy and sometimes this gets them into trouble by
advancing the schedule too quickly.

Quoted message said:

It's easy to find
respectable opinion supporting many different permutations and ratios.

Yup!

Quoted message said:

I do believe, for me at least, there's something to the notion
"training monotony = injury factor, so mix it up a bit".

Rhetorical but what means mix it up. If your at the start of cycle and
your going long on weekends and doing 60 second quarters on the track
and hill repeats.... Some easier fartleks while increasing base is
fine. My take - if your in this for the long haul why not go a little
easier.

Quoted message said:

And aside from my shotgun approach, another difficulty in sorting this
out is that I've had a multiplicity of sins going on simultaneously,
which would have made it tougher to sort out even if I were better at
patient and linear detective work. Too much (mileage, speedwork,
intensity) too soon, too many downhills, crowned roads, splayed feet,
initially overweight, initially worse form, too fast on slow days,
insufficient flexibility and underwhelming core strength, ignorant of
thine recovery, ad nauseum.

No comment but a great summary in general! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Could be wrong but I think I've tamed all but a few factors. And
presently I'd like to address the splayed feet, whether that means
conquering or coming to terms.

OK, hopefully this filled in some of the missing details and you have
a
better idea where I'm at.

Good discussion and a chance to see different views. Of course [censored] ant
and the other trollettes will interject some grammar school snippets but
what the hell, they need to stroke their dysfunctional behavior.

-DougF

Doug!

Thanks!

For a thorough and thoughtful post. Your initial reply seemed like a
half-assed caricature of you speaking to a caricature of me; I
appreciate your full attention this time.

I don't have a whole lot to add but surely there's a smart-ass comment
or two I've gotta sneak in.

cp>> Took a couple months off this winter (not cold-wussiness so
cp>> much as post-overtrained-marathon amotivation)

df> Whew, I was afraid you and Lance had drank from the same cup. 😉

Not that cup anyhow. I'll never be Brooklyn's {best, fastest, longest
distance, most inspirational, ...} runner but I aspire to be this fair
borough's most dedicated foul-weather runner. Gimme twenny miles in a
thunderstorm, or 95/95 heat/humid, or the bone-chilling cold - bring it
on, the worse, the better. Raining frogs? I'm there, but let me strap
on my IceBugs for traction and maybe gaiters. Mild mannered c++ coder
in the financial district by day, Badwater daydreamer by... well by
day, nobody can face that kind of [censored] for 8+ hours uninterrupted by
Walter Mitty spells.

Quoted message said:

Many people start reading books and/or tuning in to r.r and decide
to go from 150 steps to 180 steps while throwing away their motion
control shoes to become a barefoot runner and run down hills faster
in there first month of running. I'm not suggesting you, but in general
people making too many form changes at once when they ramp up miles or
intensity.

That's clearly me except for the motion control shoes. Well, the
Saucony 3D Web with SuperFeet footbeds (practically OTC orthotics) were
pretty controlling of motion, in the manner of a brick. But it wasn't
just reading the old Ozzy/Denny gang here that made me burn my bra, er,
toss the bricks; it was that I didn't enjoy the way running in them
felt, and pretty sure I correlated extra post-run soreness to having
worn those monsters.

Quoted message said:

More specifically, if your feet splay, and have been for all the years
of your life, I think it is risky to just try to control just that
factor. I think the easiest form change to make which corrects many/most
problems and the least likely to cause injuries is erect/upright form.

Thanks, I'll pay closer attention to that. I do generally have a
midfoot-ish strike (one of those
been-running-a-month-now-I'm-reading-stuff intentional changes). And
I'm really not sure what degree of splay I've had for how long while
wearing what shoes and moving or standing in what way.

Quoted message said:

I have a dear shrink friend that is the most docile guy you would
ever bump into. Once he straps on a pair of running kicks, he goes
from type B- to A+. The sad part is he has spent the last two years
injured cuz he can't control things.

Wow, I guess if there's ever been a guess of "physician, heal
thyself"...

cp>> I've had a multiplicity of sins going on simultaneously...

df> No comment but a great summary in general! 🙂

Not sure if you mean "a great summary of nearly every damn stoopid
thing someone might do to injure themselves", but I think there's some
degree of commonality to my experience even if in 2003 I represented
the numbnutz extreme end of the spectrum: a highly motivated beginner
probably ain't doing just one thing wrong, no matter how convenient
that would make the diagnosis/solution.

cp>> I'm *not* currently injured, and haven't been since last Oct.

df> Mea culpa, not sure what took me off in that direction.

So help me Doug, if you say you had me confused with that goddamn
"gty", I swear to you I *will* work an aid station at one of your
ultras, and I *will* serve you a tall glass of the actual [censored] of an
actual gator. Sweetened with fructose, 12% concentration.