MMR/thimerosal lie

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The lie came about because people often confuse two of the
dozens of unsupported hypotheses on the cause of autism -- one that
claims autism is a form of mercury poisoning from
thimerosal-containing vaccines, and another that claims MMR vaccine
itself causes autism -- leading them to conclude erroneously that MMR
vaccine contains thimerosal.

A "lie" usually means a deliberate falsehood, not just a confusion.

Quoted message said:

P.S. Interestingly, I note that Dr. Brewitt has actually rewritten
the article as it appears on her own website, so perhaps she isn't a
liar. Will you join her?

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

Quoted message said:

Subject: MMR/thimerosal lie
From: [email hidden] (PF Riley)
Date: 9/9/2003 8:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Tonight I sent this e-mail to the editor of the Well Being Journal.
Let's see if he replies or takes any action on it...

PF

-----------------

Hello Scott,

I was wondering if you could help us settle a little debate on our
Usenet newsgroup (misc.kids.health).

Some of us feel that people opposed to vaccines deliberately lie in
their propaganda to get people to fear vaccines, while others feel
they are simply victims of misinformation themselves, regurgitating
nonsense they have been fed by others in their ignorance.

A great example is the commonly repeated lie that MMR vaccine contains
thimerosal. The truth is, MMR has never had thimerosal nor any other
mercury-containing preservative. Addition of thimerosal would ruin the
vaccine. The lie came about because people often confuse two of the
dozens of unsupported hypotheses on the cause of autism -- one that
claims autism is a form of mercury poisoning from
thimerosal-containing vaccines, and another that claims MMR vaccine
itself causes autism -- leading them to conclude erroneously that MMR
vaccine contains thimerosal.

A web search of key words "MMR" and "thimerosal" can easily return
several websites that have published pseudo-authoritative articles by
anti-vaccine propagandists that plainly state that MMR contains
thimerosal. An article on your website turned up on one such search,
specifically:

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/MMR.htm

This article plainly states, "Most vaccines, including the MMR,
contain ethyl mercury or thimerosal, an organic neurotoxic mercury
compound that is used as a preservative."

Now, here's how you can help us. Will you post a correction to this
lie contained in that article, and demonstrate that, even though you
are an anti-vaccine propagandist, you at least try not to post blatant
falsehoods, and are therefore not a liar? Or will you leave the
article posted as is, and prove that you are intentionally spreading
mistruths, and are therefore a liar?

Thanks for your help!

PF Riley

P.S. Interestingly, I note that Dr. Brewitt has actually rewritten
the article as it appears on her own website, so perhaps she isn't a
liar. Will you join her?

Send this along also.

http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm

http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/hepatitis_vaccine.htm

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/health/vaccination.htm

Jan

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The lie came about because people often confuse two of the
dozens of unsupported hypotheses on the cause of autism -- one that
claims autism is a form of mercury poisoning from
thimerosal-containing vaccines, and another that claims MMR vaccine
itself causes autism -- leading them to conclude erroneously that MMR
vaccine contains thimerosal.

A "lie" usually means a deliberate falsehood, not just a confusion.

When one should know better, failing to get the facts is just as bad as
lying.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

P.S. Interestingly, I note that Dr. Brewitt has actually rewritten
the article as it appears on her own website, so perhaps she isn't a
liar. Will you join her?

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

Really? Saying that the mercury in MMR causes autism when there is no
mercury in MMR is an "insignificant mistake?"

Roger, you can do better than that.

Jeff

(Jan) said:

Send this along also.

http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm

Yep. That one's got lies in it:

"Thimerosal, a mercury preservative, is being phased out of vaccines
because of its potential toxicity in vulnerable children and concern
from parents and clinicians. Although most of the current evidence
favors the safety of the MMR vaccine, especially with the removal of
thimerosal, continued research is needed in this area before parents
will feel that this issue has been resolved completely."

Quoted message said:

http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Quoted message said:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/hepatitis_vaccine.htm

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Quoted message said:

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/health/vaccination.htm

Almost too many lies to count, but not the one about MMR and mercury.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The lie came about because people often confuse two of the
dozens of unsupported hypotheses on the cause of autism -- one that
claims autism is a form of mercury poisoning from
thimerosal-containing vaccines, and another that claims MMR vaccine
itself causes autism -- leading them to conclude erroneously that MMR
vaccine contains thimerosal.

A "lie" usually means a deliberate falsehood, not just a confusion.

A good journalist should check ALL of their facts. Imagine if such a
situation occurred in the pro-vac field. I suspect you would be bvleating
and braying all over the place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

P.S. Interestingly, I note that Dr. Brewitt has actually rewritten
the article as it appears on her own website, so perhaps she isn't a
liar. Will you join her?

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

With the inflammatory nature of such a misstatement of fact, it is neither
innocent or insignificant.

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

Really? Saying that the mercury in MMR causes autism when there is no
mercury in MMR is an "insignificant mistake?"

It is insignificant because the author meant to say that mecury
in the other vaccines may cause autism. The kids getting MMR
are usually getting the other vaccines also.

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

Really? Saying that the mercury in MMR causes autism when there is no
mercury in MMR is an "insignificant mistake?"

It is insignificant because the author meant to say that mecury
in the other vaccines may cause autism. The kids getting MMR
are usually getting the other vaccines also.

Mercury is nearly gone for the usual childhood vaccines. If you add the
total doseage that a kid could get now, it is far less than the the kid was
getting before the rise in autism.

Thus, it would be expected that if there is a link, the rate of autism
diagnosis would go down. Since the Danish study showed that there isn't a
descrease, the link is disproven.

The clear preponderance of the evidence says that autism is not caused by
mercury in vaccines.

Anyone claiming otherwise has the burden of proof.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Send this along also.

http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm

The link is not working as of this writing.

Quoted message said:

http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

This link, to Scumamore's website, does nto address the issue at hand, to
wit, the claim by some that MMR vaccines contain thimerosal, when it never
has.

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/hepatitis_vaccine.htm

This link does not address the issue at hand

Quoted message said:

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/health/vaccination.htm

This link does not address the issue at hand.

Quoted message said:

Jan

Please stay on topic.

"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Jeff" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like it was an innocent and insignificant mistake.

Really? Saying that the mercury in MMR causes autism when there is no
mercury in MMR is an "insignificant mistake?"

It is insignificant because the author meant to say that mecury
in the other vaccines may cause autism.

How do you know what the authors thought? Are you able to read minds?

Regardless of what the authors meath to say, they made a significant mistake
when they said that mercury in MMR vaccine causes anything, because there
was not mercury in the vaccines.

Quoted message said:

The kids getting MMR
are usually getting the other vaccines also.

None the less, it is not what the authors claimed. This is a significant
mistake. If I made a similar mistake (or even mispeledd a wooord), you would
have jumped all over me.

Jeff

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: MMR/thimerosal lie
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/10/2003 5:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Send this along also.

http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm

Yep. That one's got lies in it:

I doubt that. Dr Boyd Haley Ph.D chemist who has spent years researching
doesn't put lies on his websites, unlike you. It may need updated, but no lies.

Quoted message said:

Thimerosal, a mercury preservative, is being phased out of vaccines
because of its potential toxicity in vulnerable children and concern
from parents and clinicians.

Yes, and because it is mercury.

Quoted message said:

Although most of the current evidence
favors the safety of the MMR vaccine, especially with the removal of
thimerosal, continued research is

needed in this area before parents

Quoted message said:

will feel that this issue has been resolved completely."

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

Quoted message said:

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Doesn't need to mention MMR, has to do with, Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine
Policy Making
Majority Staff Report
Committee on Government Reform
U.S. House of Representatives
June 15, 2000.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/hepatitis_vaccine.htm

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Doesn't need to mention MMR has to do with, New Hepatitis Vaccine Recs Can
Devastate Newborn's Health.

Some hepatitis B vaccines STILL contain thimerosal, and some have substutied
aluminum for thimerosal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/health/vaccination.htm

Almost too many lies to count, but not the one about MMR and mercury.

In your opinion.

You sound like a kid Peter, I proved YOU and YOU alone are responsible for all
hyperlinks on YOUR website. You know it is true, it's a gotcha, so now you
mention me being responsible for everything on site I provide. That's pathetic.

You lose again.

You are getting desperate and childlike with your petty responses.

Jan

I don't give a damn if Peter lied to you, this newsgroup, his mother, or

Quoted message said:

the pope.

Rich Shewmaker Ka Ching

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: MMR/thimerosal lie
From: Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
Date: 9/10/2003 5:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

(Jan) said:

Send this along also.

http://www.testfoundation.org/thimerosal.htm

Yep. That one's got lies in it:

I doubt that. Dr Boyd Haley Ph.D chemist who has spent years researching
doesn't put lies on his websites, unlike you. It may need updated, but no lies.

Note how Jan doubts that a web page could contain lies because Boyd
Haley has something to do with it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thimerosal, a mercury preservative, is being phased out of vaccines
because of its potential toxicity in vulnerable children and concern
from parents and clinicians.

Yes, and because it is mercury.

Thimerosal is mercury in the same way that table salt is chlorine.
Don't spill any alcohol on your clothes. The carbon in it will make a
black stain. Don't get any water into your blood or it will rust the
iron in the haemoglobin.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Although most of the current evidence
favors the safety of the MMR vaccine, especially with the removal of
thimerosal, continued research is

needed in this area before parents

Quoted message said:

will feel that this issue has been resolved completely."

Yes.

Note how Jan reproduces the lie that she doubts is there. And agrees
with it. There is now and never has been any mercury in the MMR
vaccine. To say that it is there is a lie. To say that it has been
removed is a lie. But Jan still doubts that lying is going on even
when she quotes the lie verbatim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.whale.to/v/staff.html

Quoted message said:

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Doesn't need to mention MMR, has to do with, Conflicts of Interest in Vaccine
Policy Making
Majority Staff Report
Committee on Government Reform
U.S. House of Representatives
June 15, 2000.

As this thread is called "MMR/thimerosal lie" it does need to mention
MMR. We are not talking about conflicts of interest here, we are
talking about conflicts of honesty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/hepatitis_vaccine.htm

No mention of MMR on that one - please take responsibility for
everything on sites you provide links for, Jan.

Doesn't need to mention MMR has to do with, New Hepatitis Vaccine Recs Can
Devastate Newborn's Health.

As this thread is called "MMR/thimerosal lie" it does need to mention
MMR. Diversion noted.

Quoted message said:

Some hepatitis B vaccines STILL contain thimerosal, and some have substutied
aluminum for thimerosal.

And how does the replacement of thimerosal (which is an antiseptic)
with aluminium (which is an adjuvant) in Hep B vaccines have anything
to do with anything, let alone with the non-existence of mercury in
MMR vaccine?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/health/vaccination.htm

Almost too many lies to count, but not the one about MMR and mercury.

In your opinion.

An opinion backed up by facts.

Quoted message said:

You sound like a kid Peter, I proved YOU and YOU alone are responsible for all
hyperlinks on YOUR website. You know it is true, it's a gotcha, so now you
mention me being responsible for everything on site I provide. That's pathetic.

What is pathetic is that you provide links without reading the
contents of the linked sites.

You "proved" that if someone follows links from my web site they might
get to a book review at Amazon.com written by someone else. Take it up
with Google and Yahoo! They link to a lot more sites than I do, and I
am sure that you believe that they must agree with and take full
responsibility for everything they link to. Hell, they even link to my
site!! Evil Organised Search Engines.

Quoted message said:

You lose again.

"Again" implies a previous time. As there has been no first time, I
cannot lose again.

Quoted message said:

You are getting desperate and childlike with your petty responses.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

[email hidden]
Date: 9/10/2003 6:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

<snip the repeated that has been discussed many times>

Peter thinks he knows more that Dr Boyd Haley Ph'D chemist who has reached
mercury for years, and is now speaking before Congress.

He doesn't, but if he wants to delude himself, so be it.

Quoted message said:

And how does the replacement of thimerosal (which is an antiseptic)
with aluminium (which is an adjuvant) in Hep B vaccines have anything
to do with anything, let alone with the non-existence of mercury in
MMR vaccine?

Duh. All been discussed before, if you don't know about aluminum, vist Dr
Haley's website, and do some research.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

An opinion backed up by facts.

God like. moo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You sound like a kid Peter, I proved YOU and YOU alone are responsible for

all

Quoted message said:

hyperlinks on YOUR website. You know it is true, it's a gotcha, so now you
mention me being responsible for everything on site I provide. That's

pathetic.

Quoted message said:

What is pathetic is

YOU and your chldish behavior.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

You "proved" that if someone follows links from my web site they might
get to a book review at Amazon.com written by someone else. Take it up
with Google and Yahoo!

Nope, it was hyperlinked on YOUR website. YOU and YOU alone are responsible for
this hyperlink. NOT google, NOT Yahoo, NOT Amazon.

You lose again.

Quoted message said:

You are getting desperate and childlike with your petty responses.

But go ahead and lie as is your usual, with twisting and deceiving, the
debunkers don't give a damn. You have all proven yourelves over and over.

Sad that.

Jan

I don't give a damn if Peter lied to you, this newsgroup, his mother, or

Quoted message said:

the pope.

Rich Shewmaker Ka Ching

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is insignificant because the author meant to say that mecury
in the other vaccines may cause autism. The kids getting MMR
are usually getting the other vaccines also.

Mercury is nearly gone for the usual childhood vaccines. If you add

the

Quoted message said:

total doseage that a kid could get now, it is far less than the the

kid was

Quoted message said:

getting before the rise in autism.

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism. We saw a huge jump in
the diagnosis of dyslexia and other learning disabilities that seemed to
correspond to a change in the definition of just what dyslexia and
learning disabilities are. Anyone more knowledgeable in the field care
to comment on this?

Kimmer
email: Lady_Kimmer at altcastlenet dot com

"Kimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de:

Quoted message said:

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism. We saw a huge jump in
the diagnosis of dyslexia and other learning disabilities that seemed to
correspond to a change in the definition of just what dyslexia and
learning disabilities are. Anyone more knowledgeable in the field care
to comment on this?

My understanding is that the rise in autism incidence hasn't been
accompanied by a corresponding rise in the incidence of developmental
disabilities in general, indicating that at least some of the rise is due
to kids who would have been previously diagnosed with some other
developmental disability being diagnosed with autism instead. A cynical
view is that DD kids are simply being diagnosed with whatever condition is
the best-funded; a more positive view is that kids who were once simply
written off as "mentally retarded" without much thought are now getting a
more nuanced diagnosis that enables them to get appropriate help (if this
is happening, it's probably especially the case for minority kids, who used
to get disproportionally diagnosed with the conditions that had the poorest
prognoses and were the least amenable to treatment).

"Kimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism.

I believe I saw a study that looked at precisely that question, and
concluded that the rise in autism is real, and not just a change in
definition. I don't have the study, and I don't know whether it is
reliable or not. But people have certainly looked at that issue.

"Kimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is insignificant because the author meant to say that mecury
in the other vaccines may cause autism. The kids getting MMR
are usually getting the other vaccines also.

Mercury is nearly gone for the usual childhood vaccines. If you add

the

Quoted message said:

total doseage that a kid could get now, it is far less than the the

kid was

Quoted message said:

getting before the rise in autism.

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism. We saw a huge jump in
the diagnosis of dyslexia and other learning disabilities that seemed to
correspond to a change in the definition of just what dyslexia and
learning disabilities are. Anyone more knowledgeable in the field care
to comment on this?

In 1991, under the First Bush administration, the Department of Education
mandated that schools had to take an active approach and find out why kids
were not learning. This is one of the reasons conditions such as ADHD began
to be diagnosed more frequently.

Autism used to be an either/or diagnosis, and, like pregnancy, you could not
be slightly autistic. Over the years it was found that there is a wide
spectrum of the disorder and this has fueled the increase, IMNSHO.

Roger Schlafly said:

"Kimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism.

I believe I saw a study that looked at precisely that question, and
concluded that the rise in autism is real, and not just a change in
definition. I don't have the study, and I don't know whether it is
reliable or not. But people have certainly looked at that issue.

The general consensus from those who know better than Roger is that
the recent shift from underdiagnosis to overdiagnosis can account for
some but not all of the concomitant rise in incidence of autism.

I personally have seen three families in the last year where the
parents "fought" with various evaluators (school officials,
psychologists, neurologists, etc.) to get their child labelled with
either autism or Asperger's disorder, which children otherwise would
not likely be given that diagnosis, in order to get better free
tax-supported services through the school.

There's one in particular who, after a thorough, detailed assessment
of his difficulties, I came to one conclusion: He's a dummy. I so much
would have loved to say, "He doesn't have autism spectrum disorder. He
doesn't have Asperger's disorder. He doesn't have 'sensory integration
disorder.' He doesn't have 'PDD-NOS.' He's just a dummy, and I can't
fix that. Sorry."

Of course, I was more diplomatic about it instead. Nevertheless, the
family is still going to take him to an autism center in their quest
to get him the coveted PDD-NOS label, and they may very well succeed.
Good luck to them.

PF

--
"We are as dwarfs seated on the shoulders of giants that we might see more
further than they."
- Bernard of Chartres
"Roger Schlafly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I also believe that the perceived rise in autism could be attributed to
a change in just what is considered to be autism.

I believe I saw a study that looked at precisely that question, and
concluded that the rise in autism is real, and not just a change in
definition. I don't have the study, and I don't know whether it is
reliable or not. But people have certainly looked at that issue.

I've seen studies on both sides of the fence. One in California showed a
clear substitution but there have been others that didn't.

I think what someone else posted in most accurate. It is not so much that
kids that would get one diagnosis are now getting another (although this
happens) as much as kids who were being found to not quite meet the
criterion are now meeting expanded definitions. There are many kids who are
now "autistic spectrum" who previously would have been just plain "not
autistic".

I also believe that social factors are driving parents to seek diagnoses
("He's not weird he's under the PDD umbrella."😉 while funding issues are
driving both parents and schools to pursue the diagnosis.

--
CBI, MD

Mark Probert said:

Autism used to be an either/or diagnosis, and, like pregnancy, you could not
be slightly autistic. Over the years it was found that there is a wide
spectrum of the disorder and this has fueled the increase, IMNSHO.

Indeed, and thus arose garbage-pail diagnoses such as "ASD" and
"PDD-NOS."

PF