Bypass risks!

Quoted message said:

From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 7:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

CHICAGO, Aug. 12 - More than one in 10 patients who underwent heart bypass
operations were readmitted to a hospital within a month in a study published
Tuesday, and researchers said among the risk factors were the surgeon's
level
of experience.

Overall, 13 percent of the 16,000 people who underwent coronary artery
bypass graft surgery in New York state in 1999 were readmitted to hospitals
within a month due to complications from the operation, the study published
in
the Journal of the American Medical Association said. Nearly 3 percent of
the
readmitted patients died.
Infections and heart failure accounted for nearly half the readmissions
blamed on complications from bypass surgery, with older patients, women and
blacks all at higher risk of being back in the hospital within 30 days.
''It was troubling to see that that high a percentage of patients did
need to be readmitted for complications of surgery,'' said study author Dr.
Edward Hannan of the University at Albany, State University of New York.
''These complications cost money to the hospitals and the health care
system and certainly they cause a lot of harm to patients as well,'' he
said.
Hannan said the study's findings mirrored previous findings that showed
improved outcomes when the surgery was performed at high-volume hospitals
and
by surgeons who did more than 100 such operations annually.
Refining these measures of effectiveness could help patients choose the
best care and caregivers reduce readmission rates, he said.

That's why chelation is preferred by many people. They are alive and well and
telling others, while it is being suppressed by organized medicine.

Jan

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Bypass risks!
From: [email hidden] (Jan)
Date: 8/17/2003 8:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

oh the tag team at work

first to Janny

Quoted message said:

That's why chelation is preferred by many people. They are alive and well and
telling others, while it is being suppressed by organized medicine.

care to produce the angiographic proof that plaque regresses with chelation??

course not..is none...

just "actual experience" of nutcakes like you two

hawki

Quoted message said:

Subject: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 8:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]

rubber brain...

READ for comprehension

Quoted message said:

surgeon's
level
of experience.

has NEVER been questioned!!!

Quoted message said:

showed
improved outcomes when the surgery was performed at high-volume hospitals
and
by surgeons who did more than 100 such operations annually.
Refining these measures of effectiveness could help patients choose the

Quoted message said:

best care and caregivers reduce readmission rates, he said.

welll....duh...would you take your car into a dealership that ONLY fixed say 1
model like yours per month??

well..you and Jan might

anyone who has heart..or any complex surgery...at an institutution and by a
surgeon who does 1 or some small number per week..month..etc...will OF COURSE
have a higher % of complications...

duhhhhhh

yikes I wonder about your ability to understand math..statistics..let alone the
anatomy and physiology of the body..

yikes

hawki

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 8:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]

rubber brain...

READ for comprehension

Quoted message said:

surgeon's
level
of experience.

has NEVER been questioned!!!

Quoted message said:

showed
improved outcomes when the surgery was performed at high-volume hospitals
and
by surgeons who did more than 100 such operations annually.
Refining these measures of effectiveness could help patients choose the

Quoted message said:

best care and caregivers reduce readmission rates, he said.

welll....duh...would you take your car into a dealership that ONLY fixed

say 1

Quoted message said:

model like yours per month??

well..you and Jan might

anyone who has heart..or any complex surgery...at an institutution and by

a

Quoted message said:

surgeon who does 1 or some small number per week..month..etc...will OF

COURSE

Quoted message said:

have a higher % of complications...

duhhhhhh

yikes I wonder about your ability to understand math..statistics..let

alone the

Quoted message said:

anatomy and physiology of the body..

yikes

Yikes yourself. Even the practised and experienced surgeons didn't come
that way out of a box! They first had to practise surgery on some
unfortunate one's to become experienced. So Maroon to you too. --rb

Quoted message said:

hawki

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 9:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yikes yourself. Even the practised and experienced surgeons didn't come
that way out of a box! They first had to practise surgery on some
unfortunate one's to become experienced. So Maroon to you too. --rb

rubber brain

cardiac surgeons do not operate in a vaccuum,,,nor open up on street corners
...eh..like a chelationist does

so...a surgeon does NOT gain experience by "practicing" by himself..he goes
into partnerships with very experienced surgeons....it takes two ya know..

the "cite" you cited referred to places that do VERY VERY few cases per
year....thus the top notch guys won't go there...

also..as should be obvious,.,to anyone who knows what the inside of a hospital
looks like....said hospital that does 100 cases ALSO cannot have a highly
skilled and quick operating room staff...heart lung bypass techs and as
important,,,nursing staff.....thus ....complications that CAN be quickly
spotted and addressed at a hospital that does a LOT of procedures can be
assessed promptly and treated promptly.....

but then,,again..you do not have the knowledge base to have a clue as to what
that article even meant,,did you???

maroon

hawki

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 9:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yikes yourself. Even the practised and experienced surgeons didn't come
that way out of a box! They first had to practise surgery on some
unfortunate one's to become experienced. So Maroon to you too. --rb

rubber brain

cardiac surgeons do not operate in a vaccuum,,,nor open up on street

corners

Quoted message said:

..eh..like a chelationist does

so...a surgeon does NOT gain experience by "practicing" by himself..he

goes

Quoted message said:

into partnerships with very experienced surgeons....it takes two ya

know..

Quoted message said:

the "cite" you cited referred to places that do VERY VERY few cases per
year....thus the top notch guys won't go there...

also..as should be obvious,.,to anyone who knows what the inside of a

hospital

Quoted message said:

looks like....said hospital that does 100 cases ALSO cannot have a highly
skilled and quick operating room staff...heart lung bypass techs and as
important,,,nursing staff.....thus ....complications that CAN be quickly
spotted and addressed at a hospital that does a LOT of procedures can be
assessed promptly and treated promptly.....

but then,,again..you do not have the knowledge base to have a clue as to

what

Quoted message said:

that article even meant,,did you???

maroon

You'll make excuses for your buddies won't you? --rb

Quoted message said:

hawki

Hmmm,

Better read this lot. 29 dead babies out of 53 operations. No, these
Surgeons were not operating in a vacuum but rather hell bent on creating
vacuums for the Parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/06/12/ngmc12.xml

Then stop and think about who had to stick their neck out in order to stop
deaths from continuing. Read what happened to the "Whistle Blower" who was
one of the good Doctors in the hospital. Poor guy, sent to exile in
Australia. (The Poms have not changed the penalties much over 200 years)

http://old.smh.com.au/news/0107/20/national/national12.html

Please give us just one name of a Chelationist that has gone to this much
trouble?
This murky side of the Medical Industry gets what it deserves.. Don't you
think ?

Rod.

"Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 9:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Yikes yourself. Even the practised and experienced surgeons didn't come
that way out of a box! They first had to practise surgery on some
unfortunate one's to become experienced. So Maroon to you too. --rb

rubber brain

cardiac surgeons do not operate in a vaccuum,,,nor open up on street

corners

Quoted message said:

..eh..like a chelationist does

so...a surgeon does NOT gain experience by "practicing" by himself..he

goes

Quoted message said:

into partnerships with very experienced surgeons....it takes two ya

know..

Quoted message said:

the "cite" you cited referred to places that do VERY VERY few cases per
year....thus the top notch guys won't go there...

also..as should be obvious,.,to anyone who knows what the inside of a

hospital

Quoted message said:

looks like....said hospital that does 100 cases ALSO cannot have a highly
skilled and quick operating room staff...heart lung bypass techs and as
important,,,nursing staff.....thus ....complications that CAN be quickly
spotted and addressed at a hospital that does a LOT of procedures can be
assessed promptly and treated promptly.....

but then,,again..you do not have the knowledge base to have a clue as to

what

Quoted message said:

that article even meant,,did you???

maroon

hawki

rb said:

Hannan said the study's findings mirrored previous findings that showed
improved outcomes when the surgery was performed at high-volume hospitals
and by surgeons who did more than 100 such operations annually.

Well DUH! If they are doing 2 or more a week, they have lots of
experience. They stay in practice.

It's like taking your car to a specialist in that brand, instead
of taking it to a low-volume garage shop.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

Eric Bohlman said:

The next step is to determine why female and black patients had worse
outcomes. I'd think the first thing to look at would be co-morbidities,
particularly type 2 diabetes (which is more common in people of other than
European ancestry and while a significant factor in heart disease in men,
is even more significant in women, who otherwise have fewer risk factors).

And the blood pressure problems that are well-known to be more
prevalent in black populations at every income level.

Quoted message said:

Note that the assertion that black and female bypass patients have worse
outcomes due to co-morbidities is a testable hypothesis and therefore needs
to be tested rather than just assumed.

Quoted message said:

If the test comes up negative, then
you have to start looking at whether racism and sexism are leading to
poorer care, among other things. Though you can't assume that "poorer
care" means "poorer care *by* the surgical team; it could be poorer
outpatient care, or poorer access to such care, in the years before the
surgery, leading to worse disease at the time of the surgery.

That was my thought: they were not referred at a uniformly early
state of cardiac problems ... whether due to lack of access to
care, or bias on the part of the screeners.

Some of this could be checked by backtracking through the medical
records, and by interviews with the patients and families.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/17/2003 7:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

CHICAGO, Aug. 12 - More than one in 10 patients who underwent heart bypass
operations were readmitted to a hospital within a month in a study published
Tuesday, and researchers said among the risk factors were the surgeon's
level
of experience.

Overall, 13 percent of the 16,000 people who underwent coronary artery
bypass graft surgery in New York state in 1999 were readmitted to hospitals
within a month due to complications from the operation, the study published
in
the Journal of the American Medical Association said. Nearly 3 percent of
the
readmitted patients died.
Infections and heart failure accounted for nearly half the readmissions
blamed on complications from bypass surgery, with older patients, women and
blacks all at higher risk of being back in the hospital within 30 days.
''It was troubling to see that that high a percentage of patients did
need to be readmitted for complications of surgery,'' said study author Dr.
Edward Hannan of the University at Albany, State University of New York.
''These complications cost money to the hospitals and the health care
system and certainly they cause a lot of harm to patients as well,'' he
said.
Hannan said the study's findings mirrored previous findings that showed
improved outcomes when the surgery was performed at high-volume hospitals
and
by surgeons who did more than 100 such operations annually.
Refining these measures of effectiveness could help patients choose the
best care and caregivers reduce readmission rates, he said.

That's why chelation is preferred by many people. They are alive and well and
telling others, while it is being suppressed by organized medicine.

Jan's definition of "suppressed": "Randomized double-blind scientific
studies have failed to show a benefit for this therapy, contradicting
*my* belief that there is a benefit from it."
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rod said:

Hmmm,

Better read this lot. 29 dead babies out of 53 operations. No, these
Surgeons were not operating in a vacuum but rather hell bent on creating
vacuums for the Parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/06/12/ngmc12.xml

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then stop and think about who had to stick their neck out in order to

stop

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deaths from continuing. Read what happened to the "Whistle Blower" who

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one of the good Doctors in the hospital. Poor guy, sent to exile in
Australia. (The Poms have not changed the penalties much over 200 years)

http://old.smh.com.au/news/0107/20/national/national12.html

Please give us just one name of a Chelationist that has gone to this

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trouble?
This murky side of the Medical Industry gets what it deserves.. Don't

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think ?

Actually no. The doctor who was responsible for the deaths should have
had his licensed pull, period, at the very least. The response was,
IMNSHO, grossly insufficient.

As for chelationists, they get a free pass for the most part, since
their damage does not come out until the patient goes for the big one,
but was feeling good until then. The patient's estate may not realize
what happened.

Sad that.

Can you name me any chelationist's who have been sued by their patient's
family or even the patient him/herself? If chelation was such a scam you'd
think there'd be lot's! --rb

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rb said:

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rod said:

Hmmm,

Better read this lot. 29 dead babies out of 53 operations. No, these
Surgeons were not operating in a vacuum but rather hell bent on creating
vacuums for the Parents.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/06/12/ngmc12.xml

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then stop and think about who had to stick their neck out in order to

stop

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deaths from continuing. Read what happened to the "Whistle Blower" who

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one of the good Doctors in the hospital. Poor guy, sent to exile in
Australia. (The Poms have not changed the penalties much over 200 years)

http://old.smh.com.au/news/0107/20/national/national12.html

Please give us just one name of a Chelationist that has gone to this

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trouble?
This murky side of the Medical Industry gets what it deserves.. Don't

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think ?

Actually no. The doctor who was responsible for the deaths should have
had his licensed pull, period, at the very least. The response was,
IMNSHO, grossly insufficient.

As for chelationists, they get a free pass for the most part, since
their damage does not come out until the patient goes for the big one,
but was feeling good until then. The patient's estate may not realize
what happened.

Sad that.

Can you name me any chelationist's who have been sued by their patient's
family or even the patient him/herself? If chelation was such a scam you'd
think there'd be lot's! --rb

The ones who died from TheBigOne do not sue, as they are no longer
around. Those that 'feel better' do not realize tha tthey have been
scammed until TheBigOne, and then they do not sue.

Even those that realize that they have been scammed, are reluctant to
sue, as they are often embarassed that they were so easily duped. This
is common in cases of fraud.

And, of course, the amounts are usually small enough that the cases go
to small claims courts, wherein the cases do not make the newspapers, etc.

Finally, chelationists are happy to not have the negative publicity and
reach a settlement, thus avoiding bad press.

And EAM (Evil Alternative Medicine) suppresses these cases to prevent
people from hearing about it.

I hope that clears up your confusion, but, I doubt it.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Bypass risks!
From: "rb" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 12:11 AM Pacifi

ehhh...rubber brains'

again..since you know so little about psysiology....have any clue why said
babies needed heart surgery???

nah..how could you...

children/babies ONLY have heart surgery to correct some anatomical defect...NOT
CAD...plague

thus the great chelation...even if it did work on CAD..would NOT worth a
whit...

as others have said..the guy was a problem with a knife...and deserved what he
got...

no correlation here...

not that you would have noticed that

sad that

hawki