Coaching Technique

"mayniacDad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My son spent 5 years in a program where there was not much emphasis on
proper technique. Swimming was more viewed as a fitness program, so the
kids put in a lot of yards but didn't really hone their technique. We
knew the score, but were content to let him stay with the program
because he got a lot of enjoyment out of it. We figured that if he
really wanted to improve his swimming, he would eventually realize that
he was in the wrong place and would be willing to move on in spite
of the friendships he'd formed.

A little over a year ago he turned 11 and plateaued big time. Although
there are a lot of reasons for this, it was pretty clear that lots of
yards and sloppy technique were only going to take him so far. We
moved to another program where there is more emphasis put on technique.
After a year, he's still struggling. There has been progress but it
has been really sporadic. When he does what the coaches tell him he
swims well, but far too often he just lapses back into his old form.

Now there is a new coach with yet another club in town who is pushing
yet another idea. In my son's current club the coaches recognize the
problems and tell him what to do to correct them, but they generally do
this in the context of swimming the complete stroke. Along comes the
new coach, with his method of doing drills that break the strokes down,
sometimes to the point that I can't even pick out what stroke is being
emphasized.

So here's the question. Do we stick with the current club, or should
we hop to the new club because the drilling method really is more
effective?

First off, your answer is really in your post:

"When he does what the coaches tell him he
swims well"

Admittedly, the coaching staff he is currently under has been able to
improve his technique to the extent that he is swimming well - when he cares
to follow instructions. Sooooo, do you really want to switch again?

I don't know a single professional coach out there who would advocate 'club
hopping'. It's usually associated with high-talent athletes, usually age
groupers, and is quite infuriating, and often doesn't produce the results
you're looking for.

As for the 'new' coach with his 'new' method of doing things - has this
produced any meaningful widespread improvement? If he takes a group of BB-A
swimmers and turns them into AAA and quad A athletes in 6 months, (aside
from me wanting to know how he's doing it), you *may* have a viable reason
to switch clubs, if your son's plateau continues.

However i would probably suggest that your son's plateau has little to do
with coaching, either past or present, and at his age may have everything to
do with growth. How much has he grown physically since his last great surge
of time improvements? If your current club is servicing his technique and
you see sustained improvement in that area, i wouldn't suggest its worth the
bother of switching teams.

He is a very young swimmer. You may feel like he's been in the sport for
years and is an old hand, but he isn't. Age Group swimming is dominated by
the big kids, who don't always stay big. If you are happy with your current
program's attention to technique, education and training (i.e. its balanced
well, unlike your prior club), then i would suggest you stay put, let him
develop a relationship with his current coach and team and be patient.

Steve

"mayniacDad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My son spent 5 years in a program where there was not much emphasis on
proper technique. Swimming was more viewed as a fitness program, so the
kids put in a lot of yards but didn't really hone their technique. We
knew the score, but were content to let him stay with the program
because he got a lot of enjoyment out of it. We figured that if he
really wanted to improve his swimming, he would eventually realize that
he was in the wrong place and would be willing to move on in spite
of the friendships he'd formed.

A little over a year ago he turned 11 and plateaued big time. Although
there are a lot of reasons for this, it was pretty clear that lots of
yards and sloppy technique were only going to take him so far. We
moved to another program where there is more emphasis put on technique.
After a year, he's still struggling. There has been progress but it
has been really sporadic. When he does what the coaches tell him he
swims well, but far too often he just lapses back into his old form.

Now there is a new coach with yet another club in town who is pushing
yet another idea. In my son's current club the coaches recognize the
problems and tell him what to do to correct them, but they generally do
this in the context of swimming the complete stroke. Along comes the
new coach, with his method of doing drills that break the strokes down,
sometimes to the point that I can't even pick out what stroke is being
emphasized.

So here's the question. Do we stick with the current club, or should
we hop to the new club because the drilling method really is more
effective?

a) People learn in different ways
b) People teach in different ways
c) People swim for different reasons

Start with c). Why is he swimming? Why do YOU want him to swim? How
content is he to swim for your reasons if they differ (or conflict) with
his?

And remember, God plays dice at puberty.

I agree with Steve, but I would add a couple points. You said your son
was getting enjoyment from his first team. You said you moved to a
different club, but you didn't say the move was your son's decision. I
don't know if that is a problem here or not.

Also, you say "After a year, he's still struggling." What do you mean
by that?

diablo said:

"mayniacDad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My son spent 5 years in a program where there was not much emphasis on
proper technique. Swimming was more viewed as a fitness program, so the
kids put in a lot of yards but didn't really hone their technique. We
knew the score, but were content to let him stay with the program
because he got a lot of enjoyment out of it. We figured that if he
really wanted to improve his swimming, he would eventually realize that
he was in the wrong place and would be willing to move on in spite
of the friendships he'd formed.

A little over a year ago he turned 11 and plateaued big time. Although
there are a lot of reasons for this, it was pretty clear that lots of
yards and sloppy technique were only going to take him so far. We
moved to another program where there is more emphasis put on technique.
After a year, he's still struggling. There has been progress but it
has been really sporadic. When he does what the coaches tell him he
swims well, but far too often he just lapses back into his old form.

Now there is a new coach with yet another club in town who is pushing
yet another idea. In my son's current club the coaches recognize the
problems and tell him what to do to correct them, but they generally do
this in the context of swimming the complete stroke. Along comes the
new coach, with his method of doing drills that break the strokes down,
sometimes to the point that I can't even pick out what stroke is being
emphasized.

So here's the question. Do we stick with the current club, or should
we hop to the new club because the drilling method really is more
effective?

First off, your answer is really in your post:

"When he does what the coaches tell him he
swims well"

Admittedly, the coaching staff he is currently under has been able to
improve his technique to the extent that he is swimming well - when he cares
to follow instructions. Sooooo, do you really want to switch again?

I don't know a single professional coach out there who would advocate 'club
hopping'. It's usually associated with high-talent athletes, usually age
groupers, and is quite infuriating, and often doesn't produce the results
you're looking for.

As for the 'new' coach with his 'new' method of doing things - has this
produced any meaningful widespread improvement? If he takes a group of BB-A
swimmers and turns them into AAA and quad A athletes in 6 months, (aside
from me wanting to know how he's doing it), you *may* have a viable reason
to switch clubs, if your son's plateau continues.

However i would probably suggest that your son's plateau has little to do
with coaching, either past or present, and at his age may have everything to
do with growth. How much has he grown physically since his last great surge
of time improvements? If your current club is servicing his technique and
you see sustained improvement in that area, i wouldn't suggest its worth the
bother of switching teams.

He is a very young swimmer. You may feel like he's been in the sport for
years and is an old hand, but he isn't. Age Group swimming is dominated by
the big kids, who don't always stay big. If you are happy with your current
program's attention to technique, education and training (i.e. its balanced
well, unlike your prior club), then i would suggest you stay put, let him
develop a relationship with his current coach and team and be patient.

Steve

It was his decision with parental influence. He's pretty competitive
(as in he likes to race - not that he's a great swimmer). When he got
to the point where he plateaued, he wasn't very happy. We talked a lot
about the various reasons for hitting the wall and the options. We
collectively decided that we'd pretty much run our course with the
club. We had him do trial periods with the other two clubs in town and
let him make the decision. Regardless of how I feel, I'm not going to
force him to move, but I will advise him as to what I think the right
course of action is. FWIW, I see his old coach fairly frequently.
When we first decided to leave, there were some hard feelings, but even
he acknowldges that this was the right thing to do fo my family.

He's still struggling in the sense that we're not seeing a lot of
consistent improvement in stroke technique. I'm not a swimmer, and
certainly not a coach, but I can see what works and what doesn't. For
example, at the original club he never learned to streamline on starts
and turns. After a year at the new club, he is just starting to pick
up on that. I can see a lot of other things that either produce
turbulence or offer more resistance to the water.

Maybe a little background is in order. We really stumbled into the
sport of swimming. My oldest daughter started swimming when she was 10
and the middle child (daughter) started at the same time. A year later
my son decided to give it a shot. We've tried other sports, but the
kids preferred swimming so we went with that.

We've never really had much in the way of clearly articulated goals.
When my oldest was a freshman she wanted to make her high school
section finals. When my son was 10 he wanted to make qualifying (BB)
times for the big meet in all events he was eligible to swim. My
middle child just wants to practice - she currently has no interest in
competing.

I'd like to see my son swim for his high school team and feel like he's
contributing. For my family high school swimming has been a very
positive experience. The one criticism I have is the coaches are more
oriented towards putting swimmers where they can contribute than they
are in development. Both of my daughters got pigeon-holed as distance
swimmers because they were competent and freestyle and had decent
endurance. Because of their background with the first club, they
weren't all that compentent in the other strokes and the coach wasn't
all that interested in developing them. Unfortunately, I think this is
the way it is with most high school sports. High school coaches are
counting on clubs and other programs to teach the fundamentals.

At any rate, I'd like to see my son avoid this same pitfall. The way
to do that is to ensure that he has every opportunity to develop into a
well-rounded swimmer. In a year or so my son will move to another
group with another coach within his current club. That discontinuity
seems like a natural point at which we'd consider moving to another
club. My short term focus is trying to get a feel for different
coaching philosophies so I can help my son make an informed decision.

Interesting.

It seems to me it may have been a mistake to move clubs. I had thought
your interest in better technique coaching centered on more detailed
and intricate advice than simply streamling off the turns.

You are getting good advice from coach's on this forum. I don't want
to disparage what they do with regard to technique, but I'm not a real
big believer in it with regard to swimming. That is to say, what your
son's NATURAL gifts are for swimming will lead him to technique which
is 90% correct for him. His own strength, flexibility, and endurance
will guide him to a better stroke. A coach may be able to offer some
guidance, but you say your son is competitive - that means he wants to
win. His mind and body under competitive circumstances are guiding him
the best way he knows how to propel his body through the water. I
don't think a coach can or should change that to a significant degree.

There's lots of video on the web of world class swimmers taken from
under water. I would recommend downloading as much of that as you can
and have him study it. He may make some mind body connections after
looking at various swimmers and noticing some which have similar
tendencies as he does. Usa-swimming paradigm has a rather "one size
fits all" approach. I think it's detrimental. I know when I swim
after studying videos for awhile, I can make a connection between what
I see and what I'm doing. I think it's better than a coach leading him
down a path which is body may not be suited to do based on his own
abilities.

I wish my kids liked swimming as much as yours! Good luck

Eric

Interesting.

It seems to me it may have been a mistake to move clubs. I had thought
your interest in better technique coaching centered on more detailed
and intricate advice than simply streamling off the turns.

You are getting good advice from coach's on this forum. I don't want
to disparage what they do with regard to technique, but I'm not a real
big believer in it with regard to swimming. That is to say, what your
son's NATURAL gifts are for swimming will lead him to technique which
is 90% correct for him. His own strength, flexibility, and endurance
will guide him to a better stroke. A coach may be able to offer some
guidance, but you say your son is competitive - that means he wants to
win. His mind and body under competitive circumstances are guiding him
the best way he knows how to propel his body through the water. I
don't think a coach can or should change that to a significant degree.

There's lots of video on the web of world class swimmers taken from
under water. I would recommend downloading as much of that as you can
and have him study it. He may make some mind body connections after
looking at various swimmers and noticing some which have similar
tendencies as he does. Usa-swimming paradigm has a rather "one size
fits all" approach. I think it's detrimental. I know when I swim
after studying videos for awhile, I can make a connection between what
I see and what I'm doing. I think it's better than a coach leading him
down a path which is body may not be suited to do based on his own
abilities.

I wish my kids liked swimming as much as yours! Good luck

Eric

mayniacDad said:

It was his decision with parental influence. He's pretty competitive
(as in he likes to race - not that he's a great swimmer). When he got
to the point where he plateaued, he wasn't very happy. We talked a lot
about the various reasons for hitting the wall and the options. We
collectively decided that we'd pretty much run our course with the
club. We had him do trial periods with the other two clubs in town and
let him make the decision. Regardless of how I feel, I'm not going to
force him to move, but I will advise him as to what I think the right
course of action is. FWIW, I see his old coach fairly frequently.
When we first decided to leave, there were some hard feelings, but even
he acknowldges that this was the right thing to do fo my family.

You use the phrase "hitting the wall" in the context of an 11 year old
boy. This strikes me as a bit incongruous. The only wall for an 11
year old boy to hit is his being 11 years old. He is 12 now, and he is
nowhere near being a full grown athlete. He will begin developing
rapidly now, and everything will change, probably including his
stroke. I think, during these growth spurt years, it is more important
to have a coach that will recognize potential repetitive stress damage
and steer your sone clear of it. I think it doesn't make a lot of
sense to worry about the finer points of stroke development until he
finishes the major part of his physical development, assuming his
stroke within reasonable bounds.

Quoted message said:

He's still struggling in the sense that we're not seeing a lot of
consistent improvement in stroke technique.

I think it is unreasonable to expect consistent improvement in stroke
technique. I don't even think it is desirable for one's stroke
technique to keep changing. First, if you expect consistent
improvement in his stroke technique, he must have a pretty bad stroke
at the moment. Is his stroke really that bad?

Quoted message said:

I'm not a swimmer, and
certainly not a coach, but I can see what works and what doesn't. For
example, at the original club he never learned to streamline on starts
and turns. After a year at the new club, he is just starting to pick
up on that. I can see a lot of other things that either produce
turbulence or offer more resistance to the water.

Maybe a little background is in order. We really stumbled into the
sport of swimming. My oldest daughter started swimming when she was 10
and the middle child (daughter) started at the same time. A year later
my son decided to give it a shot. We've tried other sports, but the
kids preferred swimming so we went with that.

We've never really had much in the way of clearly articulated goals.
When my oldest was a freshman she wanted to make her high school
section finals. When my son was 10 he wanted to make qualifying (BB)
times for the big meet in all events he was eligible to swim. My
middle child just wants to practice - she currently has no interest in
competing.

I'd like to see my son swim for his high school team and feel like he's
contributing. For my family high school swimming has been a very
positive experience. The one criticism I have is the coaches are more
oriented towards putting swimmers where they can contribute than they
are in development.

But high school swimming is a team sport, so this makes sense to me.
For that reason, among others, I think it is better to have a high
school coach who is also a club coach. then your kids can get all the
stroke work they need training with the club during the summer, and
the more team-oriented work in the winter.

Quoted message said:

Both of my daughters got pigeon-holed as distance
swimmers because they were competent and freestyle and had decent
endurance. Because of their background with the first club, they
weren't all that compentent in the other strokes and the coach wasn't
all that interested in developing them. Unfortunately, I think this is
the way it is with most high school sports. High school coaches are
counting on clubs and other programs to teach the fundamentals.

At any rate, I'd like to see my son avoid this same pitfall. The way
to do that is to ensure that he has every opportunity to develop into a
well-rounded swimmer. In a year or so my son will move to another
group with another coach within his current club. That discontinuity
seems like a natural point at which we'd consider moving to another
club. My short term focus is trying to get a feel for different
coaching philosophies so I can help my son make an informed decision.

I appreciate your deep involvement in your son's swimming career,
because my own parents took no interest in mine at all. fortunately, I
had one of the best coaches in the nation, and he coached both the
club and the high school team. But I think you can giove your son the
wrong message here. I don't think he should develop the belief that
his success at swimming depends on having the right coach. In the end,
his success will come from within.

When I watch my son's freestyle, one of the things that jumps out is
his pull. He tends to reach across his body as the arm extends. This
pulls the whole front of his body to one side. After the hand enters
the water he continues to reach across the body and that pulls the
shoulder down. So I see lots of back and forth and twisting of the
upper body. Watching a long race I've seen him start out well, slowly
fall back into this form, then correct it when the coach on deck gets
his attention and then regress again.

Getting back to the original question: The current club emphasizes
trying to correct this problem (and others) in the context of doing the
whole stroke. The new coach is suggesting that he can be more
effective by breaking down the stroke into component parts. I know I'm
oversimplifying a complex situation here - there are elements of both
philosophies in both clubs. But if you look at a typical practice one
club does do more work in the context of the whole stroke and the other
does more "component" work. Does anyone want to take a crack at
rendering an opinon on the relative merits of each?

FWIW, your point on the role of a high school coach is well taken. My
daughters' coach does a great job of lining up his swimmers to get the
most out of his team. He is particularly good at finding ways to
position his talent in such a way as to negate the talent on the
opposing teams.

"mayniacDad" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When I watch my son's freestyle, one of the things that jumps out is
his pull. He tends to reach across his body as the arm extends. This
pulls the whole front of his body to one side. After the hand enters
the water he continues to reach across the body and that pulls the
shoulder down. So I see lots of back and forth and twisting of the
upper body. Watching a long race I've seen him start out well, slowly
fall back into this form, then correct it when the coach on deck gets
his attention and then regress again.

Quoted message said:

Getting back to the original question: The current club emphasizes
trying to correct this problem (and others) in the context of doing the
whole stroke. The new coach is suggesting that he can be more
effective by breaking down the stroke into component parts. I know I'm
oversimplifying a complex situation here - there are elements of both
philosophies in both clubs. But if you look at a typical practice one
club does do more work in the context of the whole stroke and the other
does more "component" work. Does anyone want to take a crack at
rendering an opinon on the relative merits of each?

The most effective method of teaching as i've observed is whole-part-whole.
Teaching a component is fine, but ultimately it has to be put in the context
of the whole stroke. By isolating a section of the stroke you allow the
swimmer to focus upon that single aspect, but usually this isolation comes
at a cost. It shouldn't be a case of one or the other. Try the whole
movement - break down the components of the movement - try the whole
movement together.

I don't work with age groupers - i haven't now for years, so i have the
relative luxury of having athletes who not only are not working on
developing gross serial movements, but athletes who have the awareness to be
able to isolate a section then integrate it without much bother. As i
recall, younger swimmers had problems with this final integration stage.

How does your current coach feel about this new coach essentially suggesting
he can do a better job with your son?

I suggest you think long term - which of the teams does a better job of
taking their 11-12 year olds and developing them into senior swimmers who
continue to improve?

Quoted message said:

FWIW, your point on the role of a high school coach is well taken. My
daughters' coach does a great job of lining up his swimmers to get the
most out of his team. He is particularly good at finding ways to
position his talent in such a way as to negate the talent on the
opposing teams.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know a single professional coach out there who would advocate 'club

hopping'. It's usually associated with high-talent athletes, usually
age
groupers, and is quite infuriating, and often doesn't produce the
results
you're looking for. <<

In nearly 15 years as the parents of two age groupers, we had a policy
that the kids would change teams only when their coach left the club.
Only once did we violate this: the older kid left the club when her
coach left (in the era where neither kid drove). The double clubbing/
double driving got to be too hard and we reluctantly pulled the younger
kid out of her program to put her with her sister. Later on, when they
were in high school and their coaches left, they chose different clubs.
I told them to choose carefully, because they'd be "stuck" with their
respective coaches until if and when the coaches left. So they
remained with their coaches through high school, while many of
their teammates and friends were playing the musical team game.

I think that the bond between coach and swimmer is very strong.
So many hours spent; so early/so late/so long. It hurts coaches
to put so much effort into an athlete, only to be left, and they are
modestly
compensated, in financial terms. We can't give them a lot of
money; but they do deserve our loyalty; and that's what we
all tried to give them. In the end, there were no regrets and
much satisfaction; many good memories; and tangible
benefits, from the efforts of coaches and swimmers alike, with
respect to college opportunities and life opportunities.

- Larry W

mayniacDad said:

When I watch my son's freestyle, one of the things that jumps out is
his pull. He tends to reach across his body as the arm extends. This
pulls the whole front of his body to one side. After the hand enters
the water he continues to reach across the body and that pulls the
shoulder down. So I see lots of back and forth and twisting of the
upper body. Watching a long race I've seen him start out well, slowly
fall back into this form, then correct it when the coach on deck gets
his attention and then regress again.

What I'm hearing now is possible arm/shoulder weakness and/or muscle
imbalance.

1. He hit a plateau.

2. He takes direction from the coach.

3. When he executes the directions, his stroke/speed improves.

4. In longer races, his stroke degrades over the race.

A stroke problem is often compensating for a muscle weakness or
imbalance. Once a swimmer gets comfortable doing an inefficient
stroke, the muscles adjust to that form. Correcting a problem like
that requires increased strength. In other words, once you learn a bad
stroke, you will need more strength in certain muscles to maintain a
correct stroke over a long distance. Otherwise, you will slip back
into your bad form as the race progresses and your muscles tire. The
weak muscles will tire first, and you will slip back into your bad
stroke. That is the pattern you describe.

Keeping in mind your son is only 12, his upper body is still mostly
undeveloped. I suspect his competitive desire is ahead of his physical
development. Some cross training might be useful, but keep in mind
that weightlifting for a 12 year old can do some damage to growing
joints. But there are some isometric strength exercises that can be
used safely every day. Does your son's coach use any dry land
training? There should be some. Swimming benches, pull downs, triceps
exercises, things like that. Pull ups and push ups are also useful.
My high school/club coach had us doing about 30 -45 minutes of dry
land work before the workout each day during the first half of the
winter and summer seasons.

Quoted message said:

Getting back to the original question: The current club emphasizes
trying to correct this problem (and others) in the context of doing the
whole stroke. The new coach is suggesting that he can be more
effective by breaking down the stroke into component parts. I know I'm
oversimplifying a complex situation here - there are elements of both
philosophies in both clubs. But if you look at a typical practice one
club does do more work in the context of the whole stroke and the other
does more "component" work. Does anyone want to take a crack at
rendering an opinon on the relative merits of each?

FWIW, your point on the role of a high school coach is well taken. My
daughters' coach does a great job of lining up his swimmers to get the
most out of his team. He is particularly good at finding ways to
position his talent in such a way as to negate the talent on the
opposing teams.

There's some good food for thought in the following paragraph.

"Keeping in mind your son is only 12, his upper body is still mostly
undeveloped. I suspect his competitive desire is ahead of his physical
development. Some cross training might be useful, but keep in mind
that weightlifting for a 12 year old can do some damage to growing
joints. But there are some isometric strength exercises that can be
used safely every day. Does your son's coach use any dry land
training? There should be some. Swimming benches, pull downs, triceps
exercises, things like that. Pull ups and push ups are also useful.
My high school/club coach had us doing about 30 -45 minutes of dry
land work before the workout each day during the first half of the
winter and summer seasons. "

First of all, neither the first nor the current club does much dryland
training.
My son's current coach told me that a lot of his problems are related
to lack of flexibility. When I asked if they ever did any stretching
before or after practice, I was told they simply don't have time. The
flexibility thing was a real revelation. I came up with some
stretches, but have been treading pretty lightly. As with the strength
training, I'm guessing that this is something that can be overdone.

The point about my son's competitive desire being ahead of his physical
development is also right on the money. He's always been tall and
skinny and it could be another 2 years before puberty kicks in and he
starts to get some muscle mass. Even at that, he's strong enough to do
a dozen pullups.

mayniacDad said:

First of all, neither the first nor the current club does much dryland
training.
My son's current coach told me that a lot of his problems are related
to lack of flexibility. When I asked if they ever did any stretching
before or after practice, I was told they simply don't have time. The
flexibility thing was a real revelation. I came up with some
stretches, but have been treading pretty lightly. As with the strength
training, I'm guessing that this is something that can be overdone.

I'm bothered by a coach who says he doesn't have time for stretching.
Having said that, I don't know if lack of flexibility would account
for the stroke flaw you described, namely reaching across with one or
both arms. I assume he reaches across on one side? I myself am very
not flexible, but my lack of flexibility never caused me to reach
across. Rather, lack of flexibility prevented me (and still prevents
me somewhat) from developing a high elbow recovery. I have always had
a rather wide swing recovery. But in my case, the problem is more
structural, and I actually can't develop as much flexibility as most
swimmers.

Nevertheless, flexibility is something to work on, and finding a coach
who includes it in his program makes sense. I wouldn't look for a
coach who thinks flexibility is the *most* important thing.

Quoted message said:

The point about my son's competitive desire being ahead of his physical
development is also right on the money. He's always been tall and
skinny and it could be another 2 years before puberty kicks in and he
starts to get some muscle mass. Even at that, he's strong enough to do
a dozen pullups.

I'm hearing possible muscle imbalance now, which is not surprising
given his age. He can do a dozen pullups, which suggests he has no
trouble developing strenght, and he does have some strength. But he is
tall and thin, so it would not be surprising for his biceps and
triceps to be at different levels of strength development. Kids don't
know much about triceps development. I'm guessing, but the arm that
reaches across might have a weakness in the triceps. I would expect
this to show up toward the end of a long race or workout set. Some
advice from a kinesiologist might be useful.