using a walking rope

Andy Fish said:

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear on
what is normal practice when using it.

Which, to me, is a very good reason not to have one. Ropework is
non-trivial and requires all parties to know what they're doing for any
real safety benefit. Without the knowledge you'll take much longer to
get anything done and might actually increase the danger on some sections.

Quoted message said:

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking a dog
so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile taking a safety
rope at all?

I'd say not. The easiest measure is "am I happy here without a rope?"
People tend to be naturally over-cautious with this sort of thing (for a
very good reason!), so going with your feelings will usually put most
people well inside their technical competence.
If you're not happy with the exposure, find some other route to do that day.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy Fish
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear on
what is normal practice when using it.

Should we rope ourselves together as a precaution as a matter of course, or
only over extreme terrain, or only keep it for emergencies? also, should we
take any other fittings and fixings?

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking a dog
so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile taking a safety
rope at all?

Thanks for any advice

Without the knowledge of how to use it properly the rope will be of no
use to you so don't bother.

Have a great trip!

--

Dominic Sexton

In message <[email hidden]>

Andy Fish said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear
on what is normal practice when using it.

Should we rope ourselves together as a precaution as a matter of
course, or only over extreme terrain, or only keep it for
emergencies? also, should we take any other fittings and fixings?

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking
a dog so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile
taking a safety rope at all?

Thanks for any advice

Andy

Andy,

Based on the questions you are asking I think you should be very
cautious about using a rope. I'm getting the message from your posting
that you have no previous experience of ropework for climbing or caving
and no knowledge of how to set up a static or a running belay? Certainly
simply tying yourselves together with no knowledge of belaying is simply
amplifying the problem. Firstly the rope is likely to get in your way
and you may trip on it, or snag it on obstacles along the way. Secondly
if you are roped together and one of you trips and falls, the other will
also be dragged off and injured unless you know what to do to improvise
a belay.

I think you have two choices. One is to try and learn a bit more about
the basics of rope work, either from somebody with experience of
climbing or caving, or perhaps from reading a good text such as the
Pieters and Fyffe Handbook of Climbing[*]. Alternatively avoid routes
where you may need to use a rope.

If you do decide to carry a rope my advice is to avoid so called
"walkers confidence ropes" and instead get hold of a short climbing
rope. I tend to make use of retired (from more serious climbing use) 9mm
diameter (so-called half ropes because you would normally climb with
them paired or doubled) climbing ropes cut down to a length of about 20m
to 30m (full length ropes are usually about 50m-60m). The advantage of
climbing ropes is that they are more elastic and designed to absorb
shock loading the belay and the person falling. You will also need at a
minimum a few slings and carabiner for fixing running or static belays,
and you need to know how to tie appropriate knots. If you progress into
more serious scrambling or climbing you'll also need harnesses.

[*] The other place you can get some idea of ropework, techniques and
equipment is from the Petzl website and catalogue see

http://www.petzl.com/

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

Thanks for all the replies folks.

We don't intend to go places where we would expect to use a rope, so I think
the best idea is definitely to do without

Andy

"Mike Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>

Andy Fish said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear
on what is normal practice when using it.

Should we rope ourselves together as a precaution as a matter of
course, or only over extreme terrain, or only keep it for
emergencies? also, should we take any other fittings and fixings?

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking
a dog so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile
taking a safety rope at all?

Thanks for any advice

Andy

Andy,

Based on the questions you are asking I think you should be very
cautious about using a rope. I'm getting the message from your posting
that you have no previous experience of ropework for climbing or caving
and no knowledge of how to set up a static or a running belay? Certainly
simply tying yourselves together with no knowledge of belaying is simply
amplifying the problem. Firstly the rope is likely to get in your way
and you may trip on it, or snag it on obstacles along the way. Secondly
if you are roped together and one of you trips and falls, the other will
also be dragged off and injured unless you know what to do to improvise
a belay.

I think you have two choices. One is to try and learn a bit more about
the basics of rope work, either from somebody with experience of
climbing or caving, or perhaps from reading a good text such as the
Pieters and Fyffe Handbook of Climbing[*]. Alternatively avoid routes
where you may need to use a rope.

If you do decide to carry a rope my advice is to avoid so called
"walkers confidence ropes" and instead get hold of a short climbing
rope. I tend to make use of retired (from more serious climbing use) 9mm
diameter (so-called half ropes because you would normally climb with
them paired or doubled) climbing ropes cut down to a length of about 20m
to 30m (full length ropes are usually about 50m-60m). The advantage of
climbing ropes is that they are more elastic and designed to absorb
shock loading the belay and the person falling. You will also need at a
minimum a few slings and carabiner for fixing running or static belays,
and you need to know how to tie appropriate knots. If you progress into
more serious scrambling or climbing you'll also need harnesses.

[*] The other place you can get some idea of ropework, techniques and
equipment is from the Petzl website and catalogue see

http://www.petzl.com/

--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy Fish said:

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear on
what is normal practice when using it.

Which, to me, is a very good reason not to have one. Ropework is
non-trivial and requires all parties to know what they're doing for any
real safety benefit. Without the knowledge you'll take much longer to get
anything done and might actually increase the danger on some sections.

Quoted message said:

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking a
dog so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile taking a
safety rope at all?

I'd say not. The easiest measure is "am I happy here without a rope?"
People tend to be naturally over-cautious with this sort of thing (for a
very good reason!), so going with your feelings will usually put most
people well inside their technical competence.
If you're not happy with the exposure, find some other route to do that
day.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I would endorse those comments. Good rope work cannot be learned in five
minutes.

By the way when and where abouts in the Pyrenees are you going? I have been
myself many times and if you need any info I will try to oblige. I'm going
out there myself next week.

"Andy Fish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for all the replies folks.

We don't intend to go places where we would expect to use a rope, so I
think the best idea is definitely to do without

Bear inmind a french 'easy' peak may have sections with cables and wire
ropes to protect
sections.

Nick

Andy Fish said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have read all the other replies and it is good sound advice.
Without basic knowledge of ropework, carrying a rope is of little use
in most circumstances.

I usually carry a rope and am replying to offer an alternate view and
to advise when a rope may be of use.

My rope has been used in an emergency situation only once. On Ben
Alligin my walking partner dislocated his shoulder. He was able to
'pop' it back in, but lacked the confidence to scramble down the horns
to the horns' 'bypass'. I tied myself to a rock, and belayed him as
he climbed down. It is possible that I would not have been able to
talk him down without the rope, and that would have meant a long wait
for mountain rescue.

I have also used my rope for a river crossing when walking in a group
of four. A friend crossed the river first, holding one end of the
rope, he and I then held the rope tight while the other two of our
party crossed the river. I then crossed the river holding the end of
the rope. The rope was there purely to give balance. It is important
not to be tied to the rope, and to walk downstream of the rope so
there is no chance of becoming entangled in the rope.

A third use of a rope which needs no skill, is if you have a casualty.
Tie one end of the rope to your casualty, or something near your
casualty, and lay the rope in a straight line away from your casualty.
This gives a 30m long target for any rescue party to find, who will
hopefully follow the rope to find out why it's there. This would be
especially useful if you have moved your casualty to a sheltered
location.

Generally, a walking rope is for emergency use only or to give someone
confidence: it is not to help you to get to places you would not
otherwise visit.

Hi,

I spent about 20 days walking in the Pyrenees last summer. Between
Cauterets and Benasque. We didn't summit anything but did follow the HRP
for a while. If you are going this way and you'd like any more info,
I'll be glad to help.

C L Imber said:

Andy Fish said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have read all the other replies and it is good sound advice.
Without basic knowledge of ropework, carrying a rope is of little use
in most circumstances.

I usually carry a rope and am replying to offer an alternate view and
to advise when a rope may be of use.

My rope has been used in an emergency situation only once. On Ben
Alligin my walking partner dislocated his shoulder. He was able to
'pop' it back in, but lacked the confidence to scramble down the horns
to the horns' 'bypass'. I tied myself to a rock, and belayed him as
he climbed down. It is possible that I would not have been able to
talk him down without the rope, and that would have meant a long wait
for mountain rescue.

I have also used my rope for a river crossing when walking in a group
of four. A friend crossed the river first, holding one end of the
rope, he and I then held the rope tight while the other two of our
party crossed the river. I then crossed the river holding the end of
the rope. The rope was there purely to give balance. It is important
not to be tied to the rope, and to walk downstream of the rope so
there is no chance of becoming entangled in the rope.

A third use of a rope which needs no skill, is if you have a casualty.
Tie one end of the rope to your casualty, or something near your
casualty, and lay the rope in a straight line away from your casualty.
This gives a 30m long target for any rescue party to find, who will
hopefully follow the rope to find out why it's there. This would be
especially useful if you have moved your casualty to a sheltered
location.

Generally, a walking rope is for emergency use only or to give someone
confidence: it is not to help you to get to places you would not
otherwise visit.

On 22/6/05 11:30, in article
[email hidden], "Andy Fish"

Quoted message said:

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

You DON"T need a walking rope! The other comments here are quite sensible.
If you are not doing any difficult ascents then there is no trouble at all.

The High Pyrennean routes (HRP) are for the most part quite straightforward.
There are one of two sections where wires have been installed to help you on
particularly sheer sections. So long as you have a head for heights the
wire will give you all of the help you need. And where there are these
wired bits there are always alternative routes.

I really do suggest that you only listen to those who have walked the main
routes in the Pyrenees! Better still invest in a decent guide. Kev
Reynold's 'Pyrenees' (Cicerone) is a kind of Pyrenean walking reference book
(not to take with you but to plan in advance). This and a good walks book
(look at the Cicerone web site) should be all you need. They will clearly
indicate where the walk is more difficult. For the most part difficult here
means long rather than technica.

There might be some bits that the dog is a bit wary about.

Where are you planning to walk? Give me an email and we can talk a bit
more.

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:41:40 GMT, Andy Howell

andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk said:

Quoted message said:

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

You DON"T need a walking rope!

A rope combined with a knowledge of how to use it can be of use, and
is certainly recommended for some assents and glacier traverses.

C L Imber said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:41:40 GMT, Andy Howell
<andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You DON"T need a walking rope!

Quoted message said:

A rope combined with a knowledge of how to use it can be of use, and
is certainly recommended for some assents and glacier traverses.

Though of course "can be of use" is not the same as "need". Also if
it's an ascent that needs a rope then it's not really walking, but
climbing. Also the case that there's glaciers as in rivers of moving
ice, which crevasse badly and ropes make a usefully significant safety
difference, and glaciers as in permanent snow fields, which aren't
anything like as big a problem to traverse (at least so I gather, having
not crossed any that aren't looked over by ski patrols).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

C L Imber said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:41:40 GMT, Andy Howell
<andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You DON"T need a walking rope!

Quoted message said:

A rope combined with a knowledge of how to use it can be of use, and
is certainly recommended for some assents and glacier traverses.

Though of course "can be of use" is not the same as "need". Also if
it's an ascent that needs a rope then it's not really walking, but
climbing. Also the case that there's glaciers as in rivers of moving
ice, which crevasse badly and ropes make a usefully significant safety
difference, and glaciers as in permanent snow fields, which aren't
anything like as big a problem to traverse (at least so I gather, having
not crossed any that aren't looked over by ski patrols).

Carrying a walking rope does not imply using a walking rope. I have
carried a walking rope on, perhaps, 50 walks, and only used a walking
rope twice.

Peter Clinch said:

C L Imber said:

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:41:40 GMT, Andy Howell
<andy.howellNOSPAM@ecotrendDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You DON"T need a walking rope!

Quoted message said:

A rope combined with a knowledge of how to use it can be of use, and
is certainly recommended for some assents and glacier traverses.

Though of course "can be of use" is not the same as "need". Also if
it's an ascent that needs a rope then it's not really walking, but
climbing. Also the case that there's glaciers as in rivers of moving
ice, which crevasse badly and ropes make a usefully significant safety
difference, and glaciers as in permanent snow fields, which aren't
anything like as big a problem to traverse (at least so I gather, having
not crossed any that aren't looked over by ski patrols).

Carrying a walking rope does not imply using a walking rope. I have
carried a walking rope on, perhaps, 50 walks, and only used a walking
rope twice.

C L Imber <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Carrying a walking rope does not imply using a walking rope. I have
carried a walking rope on, perhaps, 50 walks, and only used a walking
rope twice.

Looks good coiled around the pack or shoulders, and you can impress
people by saying: "Mornin' - just going to have a look at a bit of
rock".
It happened to us once when we met a guy from work, but he was genuinely
going climbing.
--
Gordon Harris

Gordon Harris said:

C L Imber <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Carrying a walking rope does not imply using a walking rope. I have
carried a walking rope on, perhaps, 50 walks, and only used a walking
rope twice.

Looks good coiled around the pack or shoulders, and you can impress
people by saying: "Mornin' - just going to have a look at a bit of
rock".

I carry mine in a stuff bag at the bottom of my rucksack - so no Team
Testosterone points for me. ;-)

C L Imber said:

Carrying a walking rope does not imply using a walking rope.

Granted, but if the OP was told he "should take one" then that implies a
degree of need, and that is a different matter to "he might use one if
he has one".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Andy Fish" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I am going on a walking holiday in the pyrenees and I have read somewhere
that we should take a walking rope.

I have found out what they are and where to get one, but I'm not clear on
what is normal practice when using it.

Should we rope ourselves together as a precaution as a matter of course,
or only over extreme terrain, or only keep it for emergencies? also,
should we take any other fittings and fixings?

We aren't going to be doing any really difficult ascents (we're taking a
dog so we can only go where the dog can walk). Is it worthwhile taking a
safety rope at all?

Thanks for any advice

Andy

I should have mentioned that dogs are NOT allowed in the Pyrenees National
Park

On 22/6/05 22:33, in article [email hidden], "C

L Imber said:

A rope combined with a knowledge of how to use it can be of use, and
is certainly recommended for some assents and glacier traverses.

Yes but he said he WASN"T doing anything that high. He certainly wasn't
traversing glaciers!

--
Andy Howell
Birmingham, UK

To mail simply put back the dots ...