Deep-V Spoke Count

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will be
optimal under the circumstances.

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often with a
rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with disc-brakes and Deep-V
wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each, but the stock rear spokes came
over-tensioned to a point of premature failure. Despite this, the Deep-V
profile still impressed me with its durability after the damaged wheel was
retensioned. One year later, I now plan to replace the damaged wheel with
another Deep-V unit (and dump the rear disc brake in favor of a caliper rim
brake) but I'm still mulling over a choice of spoke count that ranges from
28 to 32 to 36.

My parts-bin situation leads me to favor staying with 28-spoke wheels, but
my body weight indicates a higher spoke count might be favorable. The wheels
will be well-built with high-quality spokes, and maybe with especially
strong spokes like the Sapim CX-Rays. The rim will be a Velocity Deep-V,
which I notice is being used for some wheels of very low spoke count.
Therefore, I wonder if any more than 28 spokes is really much of any
advantage.

Questions:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke reliability?

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

In short, is there really much of a reason to use more than 28 spokes on the
Deep-V rim, provided the spokes are high quality and the wheel is well
built?

36 spoke asymmetric rim with 14-16-14 (or possibly sub
14-15-14 based on availability) brass nipples, well lubed,
nice and tight, round and straight will give good long service.

Plenty of wags will note that 28 is probably adequate.
You've already found the limits of that.

I talked with a customer today who had been plagued with rim
and spoke failures for years until we built him ( 220lbs)
exactly such a wheel 18 months ago. It has proven boringly
dependable for a bit over 2500 miles. His question today?
What did I think about a boutique wheel set with 28
threads-on-both-ends spokes. It would save him 20 grams or
so and cost $325 more than the wheels I built.

I laughed out loud.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will be
optimal under the circumstances.

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often with a
rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with disc-brakes and Deep-V
wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each, but the stock rear spokes came
over-tensioned to a point of premature failure. Despite this, the Deep-V
profile still impressed me with its durability after the damaged wheel was
retensioned. One year later, I now plan to replace the damaged wheel with
another Deep-V unit (and dump the rear disc brake in favor of a caliper rim
brake) but I'm still mulling over a choice of spoke count that ranges from
28 to 32 to 36.

My parts-bin situation leads me to favor staying with 28-spoke wheels, but
my body weight indicates a higher spoke count might be favorable. The wheels
will be well-built with high-quality spokes, and maybe with especially
strong spokes like the Sapim CX-Rays. The rim will be a Velocity Deep-V,
which I notice is being used for some wheels of very low spoke count.
Therefore, I wonder if any more than 28 spokes is really much of any
advantage.

Questions:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke reliability?

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

In short, is there really much of a reason to use more than 28 spokes on the
Deep-V rim, provided the spokes are high quality and the wheel is well
built?

/* mykal */

Yes, more spokes will help increase reliability.
Are you talking of 26" or 700C Deep V?
C-Xrays are very durable, but quite expensive.
Switching to rim brakes adds a wear factor to the rims that makes them less durable.
I have built both 26" and 700C Deep V wheels. I would not consider a 28 spoke rear in either unless it were for a special event wheel where durability was not considered.
What was the evidence/failure in the over tensioned wheel?

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will be
optimal under the circumstances.

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often with a
rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with disc-brakes and Deep-V
wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each, but the stock rear spokes came
over-tensioned to a point of premature failure. Despite this, the Deep-V
profile still impressed me with its durability after the damaged wheel was
retensioned. One year later, I now plan to replace the damaged wheel with
another Deep-V unit (and dump the rear disc brake in favor of a caliper rim
brake) but I'm still mulling over a choice of spoke count that ranges from
28 to 32 to 36.

My parts-bin situation leads me to favor staying with 28-spoke wheels, but
my body weight indicates a higher spoke count might be favorable. The wheels
will be well-built with high-quality spokes, and maybe with especially
strong spokes like the Sapim CX-Rays. The rim will be a Velocity Deep-V,
which I notice is being used for some wheels of very low spoke count.
Therefore, I wonder if any more than 28 spokes is really much of any
advantage.

Questions:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke reliability?

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

In short, is there really much of a reason to use more than 28 spokes on the
Deep-V rim, provided the spokes are high quality and the wheel is well
built?

I'd go for Mavic CXP33 with 36 spokes at the rear (V-rims are stronger
in th radial direction, you're correct). With a good build and no front
panniers, you might get away with 28 at the front.

"daveornee" wrote...

Quoted message said:

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will
be
optimal under the circumstances.

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often with a
rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with disc-brakes and
Deep-V
wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each, but the stock rear spokes came
over-tensioned to a point of premature failure. Despite this, the
Deep-V
profile still impressed me with its durability after the damaged wheel
was
retensioned. One year later, I now plan to replace the damaged wheel
with
another Deep-V unit (and dump the rear disc brake in favor of a caliper
rim
brake) but I'm still mulling over a choice of spoke count that ranges
from
28 to 32 to 36.

My parts-bin situation leads me to favor staying with 28-spoke wheels,
but
my body weight indicates a higher spoke count might be favorable. The
wheels
will be well-built with high-quality spokes, and maybe with especially
strong spokes like the Sapim CX-Rays. The rim will be a Velocity
Deep-V,
which I notice is being used for some wheels of very low spoke count.
Therefore, I wonder if any more than 28 spokes is really much of any
advantage.

Questions:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke
reliability?

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

In short, is there really much of a reason to use more than 28 spokes
on the
Deep-V rim, provided the spokes are high quality and the wheel is well
built?

/* mykal */

Yes, more spokes will help increase reliability.
Are you talking of 26" or 700C Deep V?
C-Xrays are very durable, but quite expensive.
Switching to rim brakes adds a wear factor to the rims that makes them
less durable.
I have built both 26" and 700C Deep V wheels. I would not consider a
28 spoke rear in either unless it were for a special event wheel where
durability was not considered.
What was the evidence/failure in the over tensioned wheel?

David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

--
daveornee

I'm talking about a 700C Deep V; it's a road bike, although a somewhat
unusual one by the specification of disc brakes mounted within conventional
dropout spacing. (The bike is a 2004 Redline Disc-R, a version of the
Redline Conquest Pro cyclocross bike, but with slightly different tubing,
conventional road frame geometry, and Avid mechanical disc brakes on the 28H
hubs which are laced 3x with Sapim Race spokes.)

I'm plan to keep the front wheel as is, laced 3x to the compatible 28H
disc-brake hub, but I'm thinking the cost of an increased wear factor
imposed on the rear rim will be more than offset by the benefits of using a
rim brake on that end of the bike, considering how I actually use the bike.

The evidence of over-tension in the rear wheel first presented with a spoke
that spontaneously snapped under the stress of thermal expansion induced by
Seattle sunshine. During the liquid sunshine months, the wheel held up OK,
but on one sunny Spring day, as the bike leaned at a standstill against a
park bench in the sun, one spoke broke. The wheel potato-chipped on the
spot.

I wheeled the bike to a nearby LBS where a mechanic discovered with a
tensiometer that the spoke tensioning was pretty much off the scale. He gave
me no specific, objective values I can pass on, but he did say that he
thought it quite unbelievable that the spokes hadn't pulled the nipples
through the rims. I noticed that many spokes protruded through their
respective nipples to protrude into the V cavity of the rim.

From the LBS point of view, a likely explanation was that the bike owner
(me) had tried an unskilled hand at wheel truing and wound up destroying the
wheel by over-tensioning the spokes. The LBS mechanic eventually conceded
that the wheel could have been poorly built as a cheap rush job by the
manufacturer (no other party had adjusted the spoke tension prior to wheel
failure), and he shared his opinion that a such a severely overtensioned
wheel is prone to self-destruction when a spoke breaks.

As it was, the LBS mechanic graciously provided a low-cost repair by
replacing the broken spoke, reducing tension all around, and truing the
wheel as best as practical by imposing an unbalanced tension to the rim to
compensate for the damage. After this repair, the rim was measurably
centered on the hub, laterally true, and permanently affected by a radial
hop that was easy to see but not noticeable to my butt when riding the bike.

Further evidence of over-tensioning presented after this initial repair:
After adding about 1,500 miles to the wheel, I noticed the rim had skewed
laterally about 3 mm. This offset accounted for the wheel being 6 mm closer
to the left chain stay than it was to the right chain stay. Theoretically,
the right (drive side) spokes were fatigued by the presumed initial
over-tensioning to an extent where these spokes continued to stretch after
the repair. The left spokes, having more elasticity still intact, took up
the slack created by the stretching right spokes and the whole rim shifted
to the left. Eventually, the ride got to where I was sitting slightly to the
side of the saddle to compensate for the developing misalignment.

An LBS was able to re-tension the spokes again to pull wheel back inline,
the bike once again tracked well, but I expect spokes will start breaking
any day now as the misalignment problem is coming back

Hope the above answers your questions, and thank you for your suggestions
regarding wheel selection.

Mykal

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will be
optimal under the circumstances.

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often with a
rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with disc-brakes and Deep-V
wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each, but the stock rear spokes came
over-tensioned to a point of premature failure. Despite this, the Deep-V
profile still impressed me with its durability after the damaged wheel was
retensioned. One year later, I now plan to replace the damaged wheel with
another Deep-V unit (and dump the rear disc brake in favor of a caliper rim
brake) but I'm still mulling over a choice of spoke count that ranges from
28 to 32 to 36.

My parts-bin situation leads me to favor staying with 28-spoke wheels, but
my body weight indicates a higher spoke count might be favorable. The wheels
will be well-built with high-quality spokes, and maybe with especially
strong spokes like the Sapim CX-Rays. The rim will be a Velocity Deep-V,
which I notice is being used for some wheels of very low spoke count.
Therefore, I wonder if any more than 28 spokes is really much of any
advantage.

Questions:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke reliability?

arrrggg-more spokes, stronger wheel. 16 spokes weigh in at a mighty 55
grams or so, but a 36h wheel is stonger. Look other places to save
weight and why scimp on your wheels? For you, i woukd recommend 36
spokes, period. People that make their wheels 'just strong enough'
mystify me. They are there to get you there, not a goal in itself. Not
fun being stranded with a broken wheel.

Quoted message said:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

In short, is there really much of a reason to use more than 28 spokes on the
Deep-V rim, provided the spokes are high quality and the wheel is well
built?

Yes, big reason, make your wheels reliable.

Quoted message said:

/* mykal */

A Muzi said:

36 spoke asymmetric rim with 14-16-14 (or possibly sub
14-15-14 based on availability) brass nipples, well lubed,
nice and tight, round and straight will give good long service.

Plenty of wags will note that 28 is probably adequate.
You've already found the limits of that.

I talked with a customer today who had been plagued with rim
and spoke failures for years until we built him ( 220lbs)
exactly such a wheel 18 months ago. It has proven boringly
dependable for a bit over 2500 miles. His question today?
What did I think about a boutique wheel set with 28
threads-on-both-ends spokes. It would save him 20 grams or
so and cost $325 more than the wheels I built.

I laughed out loud.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Ain't it the truth. Why some believe a magazine or an ad in said
magazine instead of those of us that see goods and others of bicycle
equipment everyday
mystifies me to no end. They buy, they break, they wonder why, they
come in, we build, they are happy, then they wonder again....

Makes the 'shut up and ride' sticker very meaningful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mykal said:

I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count will
be optimal under the circumstances.

As many as reasonably possible, i.e. 36. Spokes are really light and
greatly increase the durability of a wheel: an excellent trade of a few
grams for extended life and lesser probability of destructive failure.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often
with a rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with
disc-brakes and Deep-V wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each,
but the stock rear spokes came over-tensioned to a point of
premature failure.

I weigh 210 pounds and also frequently ride aggressively on
city streets with a messenger bag of varied weight. My Kona
Jake-the-Snake cross bike has custom wheels: 36h Deep-V rims, Sapim
CX-Ray spokes and Shimano XT hubs. I'm very happy with the wheels
and recommend the combination to you. Choose your own hubs. 🙂

That Redline is a great bike. A friend has a Conquest model and
loves it. I do wonder why you're moving away from the Avid mech disc
brakes, though. I have rim brakes (V in front with adapter, canti
in rear) and wish for discs instead. If my fork would support it I
would get a wheel with disc hub, but the total changeover cost adds
up to too much for now. What problems has the disc setup caused for
you? Would you switch just the rear to a rim brake and leave the
front disc? It seems like an odd setup, but I would do it too, but
for the cost for a somewhat minimal gain on my side.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke
reliability?

I don't know--too many variables, especially the build.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

Yes!

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
[email hidden] "You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

"Gregory Sutter" wrote:
..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mykal Wrote:
> I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count

will

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> be optimal under the circumstances.

As many as reasonably possible, i.e. 36. Spokes are really light and
greatly increase the durability of a wheel: an excellent trade of a few
grams for extended life and lesser probability of destructive failure.

Makes sense, but I've been thinking that "as many as reasonably possible" in
the case of my bike may be only 28 spokes... it's a road bike, and I'm not
aware of what hubs I can find that will support both the disc brakes and a
greater number of spokes, given that they would be going into a bike having
roadbike dropout spacing...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I weigh 210 pounds and ride aggressively on city streets, often
> with a rucksack payload of school books. The bike came with
> disc-brakes and Deep-V wheels laced 3x with 28 spokes each,
> but the stock rear spokes came over-tensioned to a point of
> premature failure.

I weigh 210 pounds and also frequently ride aggressively on
city streets with a messenger bag of varied weight. My Kona
Jake-the-Snake cross bike has custom wheels: 36h Deep-V rims, Sapim
CX-Ray spokes and Shimano XT hubs. I'm very happy with the wheels
and recommend the combination to you. Choose your own hubs. 🙂

Interesting combo - very similar to what I've been thinking of! - I can see
now that MTB hus may be an option -- but I'm wondering about the specs...
Does the Jake-the-Snake have road dropout spacing? XT hubs use mountain
bike spacing, correct? Have you squeezed a 135mm hub into a 130mm rear
dropout?

Quoted message said:

That Redline is a great bike. A friend has a Conquest model and
loves it. I do wonder why you're moving away from the Avid mech disc
brakes, though. I have rim brakes (V in front with adapter, canti
in rear) and wish for discs instead. If my fork would support it I
would get a wheel with disc hub, but the total changeover cost adds
up to too much for now. What problems has the disc setup caused for
you? Would you switch just the rear to a rim brake and leave the
front disc? It seems like an odd setup, but I would do it too, but
for the cost for a somewhat minimal gain on my side.

Ummm... sounds like you and your friend with the Conquest (not sold stock
with disc brakes) have yet to experience first hand the deployment of disc
brakes on a road bike... I've come to learn that disc brakes on a road bike
may have more utility as sales hype than it does for slowing the
round-and-round of a wheel on pavement. That said, I like the disc brakes
not only because they have good stopping power, but also because they allow
for increased clearance between the wheel and the frame... that's more room
for fenders or mud or whatever.

But on the rear you can have the extra clearance, and adequate braking power
(for road bike application), with a long reach caliper -- with a weight
savings of about 1/2 pound -- and beneficially dispense of the maintenance
quirks of a the disc brake. You still have the front disc brake to deal
with, but that means you have only half the PITA quirks of disc brake
mainentence.

For those who don't relate to my pet peeve regarding disc brake maintenance,
I can be more specific: In the experience I've had with my brakes on my
bike, the discs are easily bumped out of alignment. To be sure, a force
insufficient to damage any other part on the bicycle can still be a force
poweful enough to bend a disc and cause it to scrape on the brake pads. This
is a real PITA. Once the disc is bent (which can happen simply by someone
bumping the bike when its locked to the rack at school or wherever), it's a
real trick to tweak it back into proper shape on the bike, especially on the
rear where its harder to eyeball the alignment. Oh, and backing off on the
brake pads is no solution.

Granted, when the discbrakes are dialed in, they work really well, as you'd
expect. They are very consistent, rain or shine. As an added bonus, in the
rain, these brakes make a noise on par with that of an advancing freight
train, which clears the road ahead of pedestrians, dogs, and small cars.
Despite this advantage, I'm thinking a new R-600 caliper (the brake bridge
is already there on the frame and ready to use) with a nice set of orange
Kool-Stop pads will be just hunky dory for a binder on the back end.

Please lemmee know the specs on your hubs -- dropout spacing compatibility
is something I need to know more about. I might go with exactly what your
talking about. XT hubs. CX-Ray spokes. Deep-V rims (Velocity?).

Mykal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Will an increased spoke count significantly increase spoke
> reliability?

I don't know--too many variables, especially the build.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Will an increased spoke count significantly increase rim reliability?

Yes!

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
[email hidden] "You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

Quoted message said:

Makes sense, but I've been thinking that "as many as
reasonably possible" in the case of my bike may be only 28
spokes... it's a road bike, and I'm not aware of what hubs
I can find that will support both the disc brakes and a
greater number of spokes, given that they would be going
into a bike having roadbike dropout spacing...

I'm liking my 28 spoke count deep V's.
Try them.

Bill

mykal said:

Gregory Sutter said:

Quoted message said:

> mykal Wrote:
> > I'm considering a specific wheel build, and wonder what spoke count
> > will be optimal under the circumstances.

As many as reasonably possible, i.e. 36. Spokes are really light and
greatly increase the durability of a wheel: an excellent trade of a few
grams for extended life and lesser probability of destructive failure.

Makes sense, but I've been thinking that "as many as reasonably possible" in
the case of my bike may be only 28 spokes... it's a road bike, and I'm not
aware of what hubs I can find that will support both the disc brakes and a
greater number of spokes, given that they would be going into a bike having
roadbike dropout spacing...

Interesting combo - very similar to what I've been thinking of! - I can see
now that MTB hus may be an option -- but I'm wondering about the specs...
Does the Jake-the-Snake have road dropout spacing? XT hubs use mountain
bike spacing, correct? Have you squeezed a 135mm hub into a 130mm rear
dropout?

I had the axle of the 135mm XT hub cut down to 130mm to fit in my
130mm rear dropout. Voids hub warranty (modification) but works
fine. Check for disc clearance issues if you're considering that
option; since I don't have discs I didn't think about it.

Quoted message said:

Please lemmee know the specs on your hubs -- dropout spacing compatibility
is something I need to know more about. I might go with exactly what your
talking about. XT hubs. CX-Ray spokes. Deep-V rims (Velocity?).

Velocity Deep-Vs, yes. You could also consider Velocity Fusion.

My wheels were custom built by Lyle at Spin Lite Cycling, from whom
I would order again.
http://spinlitecycling.com/road_wheels.htm

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
[email hidden] "You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

Gregory Sutter said:

I had the axle of the 135mm XT hub cut down to 130mm to fit in my
130mm rear dropout. Voids hub warranty (modification) but works
fine. Check for disc clearance issues if you're considering that
option; since I don't have discs I didn't think about it.

My wheels were custom built by Lyle at Spin Lite Cycling, from whom
I would order again.

Greg
--

I don't get it. How do you get a 130mm hub by shortening the axle on a
135mm hub? Wouldn't you then have a 135mm hub with a short axle?

Mykal

In article <[email hidden]>,
"mykal" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Hope the above answers your questions, and thank you for your suggestions
regarding wheel selection.

Mykal

Serious suggestion. Learn to true you wheels. Learn to build a
wheel. _You_ can build a wheel that remains true until the brake
pads wear the rim walls to foil.

--
Michael Press

mykal said:

Gregory Sutter said:

I had the axle of the 135mm XT hub cut down to 130mm to fit in my
130mm rear dropout. Voids hub warranty (modification) but works
fine. Check for disc clearance issues if you're considering that
option; since I don't have discs I didn't think about it.

My wheels were custom built by Lyle at Spin Lite Cycling, from whom
I would order again.

Greg
--

I don't get it. How do you get a 130mm hub by shortening the axle on a
135mm hub? Wouldn't you then have a 135mm hub with a short axle?

Mykal

hub body flange spacing on both is the same - it's just that the axle
length is slightly different. but i'm surprised to see the claim that
an xt was re-spaced to 130mm. that would require removal of the
external seal and consequently seriously compromise bearing life.