Basic Road Race Questions

markwill said:

Since last year (when I bought my first road bike) I can't get enough of both participating in cycling (no races) and watching pro cycling. I have a couple of questions about the latter, which I can't find anywhere.

• It seems that the last stage of any event (Tour, Giro, etc) is not particularly competitive - something of a victory lap for the leader at the start of the day. I know there have been exceptions to this but all I have seen so far have this occur. Why do the organizers factor in such stages? How often do flat out, down-to-the-wire races occur. The Giro was one example - the commentators pretty much assumed the pink jersey would not change on the last day.
  
• I know that groups of cyclists are given the same time (presumably there are bonuses for 1st place on each stage). But when is a group actually two groups? For example, if there is a gap of 1 second between riders I assume they are given the same time. What about 3 seconds? Or 10? Or 15? What defines when groups are split into seperate times?
  

For the record, I am beside myself waiting for The Tour and I am very disappointed that the Dauphiné Libéré isn't covered by OLN (at least not during the week and today - why of why can't they at least have a highlights show?).

Thanks.

Mark

Yikes - 97 people have looked at this but no replies :-) Are these questions not as simple as I anticipated?

Thanks.

Mark

markwill said:

Since last year (when I bought my first road bike) I can't get enough of both participating in cycling (no races) and watching pro cycling. I have a couple of questions about the latter, which I can't find anywhere.

• It seems that the last stage of any event (Tour, Giro, etc) is not particularly competitive - something of a victory lap for the leader at the start of the day. I know there have been exceptions to this but all I have seen so far have this occur. Why do the organizers factor in such stages? How often do flat out, down-to-the-wire races occur. The Giro was one example - the commentators pretty much assumed the pink jersey would not change on the last day.
  
• I know that groups of cyclists are given the same time (presumably there are bonuses for 1st place on each stage). But when is a group actually two groups? For example, if there is a gap of 1 second between riders I assume they are given the same time. What about 3 seconds? Or 10? Or 15? What defines when groups are split into seperate times?
  

For the record, I am beside myself waiting for The Tour and I am very disappointed that the Dauphiné Libéré isn't covered by OLN (at least not during the week and today - why of why can't they at least have a highlights show?).

Thanks.

Mark

I'll try to answer the first question. The reason that the last stage of the Giro (and last years tour) is a victory lap is because it was a relatively flat stage. Any attack by a top 5 rider would be easily countered. There is no place to really pull away (like a long climb). If Simoni would have tried an attack, he would have been pounced on by Savo and the rest of Discovery Channel team.

The second question is good and I'd like to see the answer for that as well.

grampy bone said:

I'll try to answer the first question. The reason that the last stage of the Giro (and last years tour) is a victory lap is because it was a relatively flat stage. Any attack by a top 5 rider would be easily countered. There is no place to really pull away (like a long climb). If Simoni would have tried an attack, he would have been pounced on by Savo and the rest of Discovery Channel team.

The second question is good and I'd like to see the answer for that as well.

Thanks for the response - much appreciated. So, the obvious question is why would a race director factor in a flat stage most of the time. The logic you describe makes sense (with one additional question - see below) - so in the interest of fan interest, TV worthiness, etc, etc why not build in a tough last stage, even of it still ends up in (say) Paris. Logistically, I assume that's possible.

There is one little part of your response that is an "itch" for me. You mention that any attack would be easily countered. I understand that to some degree but let's say that Simoni (and his team, in support) would have just completely gone for it - given it everything he possibly had. Just because an attack MIGHT be countered, doesn't mean that the "chasing" teams CAN counter, does it? I am not suggesting that Simoni necessarily had the power and team support to achieve this - but as someone who's second doesn't he owe it to himself to just give it everything he has and hope that he can break away?

PS: Yes, I am completely aware that it is SO much easier to say this than to actually do this :-)

Thanks again.

Mark

markwill said:

Thanks for the response - much appreciated. So, the obvious question is why would a race director factor in a flat stage most of the time. The logic you describe makes sense (with one additional question - see below) - so in the interest of fan interest, TV worthiness, etc, etc why not build in a tough last stage, even of it still ends up in (say) Paris. Logistically, I assume that's possible.

There is one little part of your response that is an "itch" for me. You mention that any attack would be easily countered. I understand that to some degree but let's say that Simoni (and his team, in support) would have just completely gone for it - given it everything he possibly had. Just because an attack MIGHT be countered, doesn't mean that the "chasing" teams CAN counter, does it? I am not suggesting that Simoni necessarily had the power and team support to achieve this - but as someone who's second doesn't he owe it to himself to just give it everything he has and hope that he can break away?

PS: Yes, I am completely aware that it is SO much easier to say this than to actually do this :-)

Thanks again.

Mark

I think for the most part it is part of the unwritten rules that it is very bad form and bad manners to attack the leader with the idea of beating him for the overall race win on the last day of a grand tour. I am guessing the whole peleton would chase down someone who had the audacity to do it and it would be very hard to counter indeed. Not only that but for the rest of whatever career the rider had he would be probably be ostracized pretty good. I would guess the peleton can make life rough for a guy if they want to.

Usually the last day is treated as a victory lap for the winner and a show off day for the (remaining) big sprinters- often the points jersey is still in contention on the last day so that adds some excitement. Its not always this way. One of the first TDF's that I remember watching was the LeMond / Fignon duel in Paris. That year the orgainizers made the last day in Paris an individual time trial. Lemond was not in the lead at the beginning of that day, but won over Fignon by 7 seconds I think. Yes it was incredibly exciting to see, but an unusual thing for the organizers to do.

As for your second question about the gaps - this is only from observation I don't know what the exact rules are- I think if there is a recordable time gap in whole seconds then they record it. The officials recorded Vinokurov 2 seconds ahead of LA in the 2nd to last stage of the Dauphine so they will do very small gaps. There are often time bonuses for at least the first 3 finishers of a stage, but how they are handled (how much time, which stages) seems to be entirely up to the indivdual race organizers.

BTW - OLN did show the highlights of the Dauphine on Sunday - they are repeating it on Wed 6/15 from 3:30 pm to 4:30 pm

Eden said:

I think for the most part it is part of the unwritten rules that it is very bad form and bad manners to attack the leader with the idea of beating him for the overall race win on the last day of a grand tour. I am guessing the whole peleton would chase down someone who had the audacity to do it and it would be very hard to counter indeed. Not only that but for the rest of whatever career the rider had he would be probably be ostracized pretty good. I would guess the peleton can make life rough for a guy if they want to.

Thanks Eden. It's an interesting sport, isn't it. Participans put themselves through physical and mental hell for three weeks - and then potentially let it go because of unwritten rules and "poor form" :-)

All that said, the Dauphine seemed a little different on the last stage. I watched this on OLN yesterday and Landaluze won by a mere 11 seconds and he came in later in the stage than Botero. So, in that context Botero "attacking"? According to the commentators, Landaluze did great to hang on...

Thanks.

Mark

markwill said:

Thanks Eden. It's an interesting sport, isn't it. Participans put themselves through physical and mental hell for three weeks - and then potentially let it go because of unwritten rules and "poor form" :-)

All that said, the Dauphine seemed a little different on the last stage. I watched this on OLN yesterday and Landaluze won by a mere 11 seconds and he came in later in the stage than Botero. So, in that context Botero "attacking"? According to the commentators, Landaluze did great to hang on...

Thanks.

Mark

The last stage of the Dauphine had seven 2.5 kilometer climbs. This type of course allows more attacks. If it had been flat, I doubt that the "two man time trialers" from Discovery would have been able to stay away from the peleton all the way to the end. It was a good race though.

markwill said:

All that said, the Dauphine seemed a little different on the last stage. I watched this on OLN yesterday and Landaluze won by a mere 11 seconds and he came in later in the stage than Botero. So, in that context Botero "attacking"? According to the commentators, Landaluze did great to hang on...

The Dauphine is only a seven stage race, the Tour has over twenty stages. So, the riders are not going to give up 1/7th of the race as a non-competitive victory lap for the leader, whereas in the Tour, the riders have completed 20 odd stages and are usually happy to enjoy the parade around the Champs Elysees.
In various cyclists' biographies they have revealed that, even in tightly contested Tours, the challengers concede the race, sometimes privately, sometimes publicly, to the maillot jaune the night before the final stage. Also, the leader's team often recruit the help of other teams to help protect the yellow jersey, just in case.
There is also the tradition of the leader leading the peleton onto the Champs Elysees, so it's possible that even if he crashed in the outskirts of Paris, the peleton would probably wait for him.
Lastly, the final stage of the Tour is raced at incredible speeds. No one, in my memory, has succeeded with a long break away, finishing well ahead of the peleton.