long term marathon training

Chris said:

What leads up to my question - yeah, I've seen all kinds of training
plans for 10 or 16 weeks, but what I am really looking for is input for
the development of a long term training plan, leading up of course to
Boston but not ending there. I finally would like to try to make my
training kind of organized.

I used a 24-week training plan from this book http://tinyurl.com/bqgt6.
As for a long term year-round training plan, you might consider joining
a running club or getting a coach.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Chris said:

What leads up to my question - yeah, I've seen all kinds of training
plans for 10 or 16 weeks, but what I am really looking for is input for
the development of a long term training plan, leading up of course to
Boston but not ending there. I finally would like to try to make my
training kind of organized.

I used a 24-week training plan from this book http://tinyurl.com/bqgt6.
As for a long term year-round training plan, you might consider joining
a running club or getting a coach.

24 weeks is a "long term year round" plan. You do two 24 week cycles a year.
That only leaves 4 weeks, and those are probably best used for resting.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Chris said:

So, what inputs do you use?

The book Phil mentioned -- Pfitzinger Douglas, offers a good description of
periodised, year-round training. So does the Jack Daniels book,
"Daniels Running Formula".

My suggestion if Boston is ultimately your goal race, would be to try to peak
for a fall half-marathon (so use the Daniels half-marathon program or even
the 24 week Pfitzinger marathon program) But given your prior times (very fast
in short distance, somewhat weaker in longer distance), doing marathon
training for the half marathon seems appropriate.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Chris said:

So, what inputs do you use?

The book Phil mentioned -- Pfitzinger Douglas, offers a good description of
periodised, year-round training. So does the Jack Daniels book,
"Daniels Running Formula".

I have this book, but there's a new version. Have you read both? I'm
wondering if it is anything new, or a rehash of the same information.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

I have this book, but there's a new version. Have you read both? I'm
wondering if it is anything new, or a rehash of the same information.

Don't know. I may get the new edition some time. I heard that he did add some
new stuff. For example, he gives a range for 'E' pace instead of just "one true
pace". I've also heard that he adds longer but slower pace tempo runs for
marathon training.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

I recommend a permanent base of 60+ miles (100 km) a week.
Maybe five runs 9-11 mile range per week plus a long run of
13-20 miles on the weekend.
This program allows you to treat an ordinary marathon as a long run.
2-3 months before a marathon of special interest-- you want
break you P.R. or it is on challanging course-- you can crank
out 3-5 longer runs in the three hour range.
I kept this up for about a dozen years until life got too busy.
I also recommend working up to this level over a year or two,
or else you might get injured.

Google "Hadd Training". Follow the ideas set forth until you begin the
formal training for the marathon.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil M. said:

Chris said:

What leads up to my question - yeah, I've seen all kinds of training
plans for 10 or 16 weeks, but what I am really looking for is input for
the development of a long term training plan, leading up of course to
Boston but not ending there. I finally would like to try to make my
training kind of organized.

I used a 24-week training plan from this book http://tinyurl.com/bqgt6.
As for a long term year-round training plan, you might consider joining
a running club or getting a coach.

24 weeks is a "long term year round" plan. You do two 24 week cycles a
year.
That only leaves 4 weeks, and those are probably best used for resting.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Chris said:

So, what inputs do you use?

I, too, can vouch for the general wisdom of Pfizinger/Douglas, Daniels
and Hadd (but I´m not sure I myself will ever manage to put those
inputs to good use in a true sense of the world...).

Quoted message said:

PS. I just moved from CA to Denmark and will run the Broloppet (bridge
run) from Copenhagen to Malmoe on June, 16. Anybody else?

Naah, it is just a grossly hyped-up event for joggers:-)

BTW my recollection of Greater Copenhagen geography is a little hazy,
but should you happen to live anywhere near Allerød you could run into
Jonathan Sydenham - who BTW has been AWOL from this newsgroup for quite
some time - and his mates from http://www.blovstrod-loverne.dk

Anders (who remembers the beech woods fondly)

Just put it on my list 🙂. Yep, Boston is the current goal, but of
course the overall goal is to become a faster runner. We'll see how
that goes. Maybe finding a running club would be a good addition to
those books.

Cheers,
--
Chris W. Probst

Quoted message said:

... (but I´m not sure I myself will ever manage to put those
inputs to good use in a true sense of the world...).

Well, that's a totally different story 😉.

Quoted message said:

Naah, it is just a grossly hyped-up event for joggers:-)

I guess you're right, but my brother worked on the site for some time,
and I got to test whether he did a good job 😉

Quoted message said:

BTW my recollection of Greater Copenhagen geography is a little hazy,
but should you happen to live anywhere near Allerød you could run into
Jonathan Sydenham - who BTW has been AWOL from this newsgroup for quite
some time - and his mates from http://www.blovstrod-loverne.dk

My "recollection" is _still_ hazy, but the route planner says its only
16 kilometer, so there's a real chance 🙂. Thanks for the link, too.

Cheers,
/Chris

Sam said:

Google "Hadd Training". Follow the ideas set forth until you begin the
formal training for the marathon.

I took a look at this. Interesting website. I was wondering, do you know of
any studies that address these issues (in particular, LT, mitochondria, training
volume, intensity)

btw, I did see a study posted on letsrun that show the benefits of mileage.
Ironically, this was an article cited by Gibbens (who seems to be the resident
whipping boy on that board) in his "articles" that supports precisely the
opposite of his claims ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Wow, there is a lot of stuff on these matters. I would just start searching
PubMed for reviews to be honest, especially reviews in Sports Medicine
(probably the single publication I would ever pay for if it came to that).

It is interesting that studies showing high intensity (think VO2max) will
also do a lot for mitochondria.

Gibbens is a bit of a [censored]. He likes to take studies on untrained people
as "proof" for trained people. I think by now most people know of my
disdain for applying the results of one population to another.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

Google "Hadd Training". Follow the ideas set forth until you begin the
formal training for the marathon.

I took a look at this. Interesting website. I was wondering, do you know
of
any studies that address these issues (in particular, LT, mitochondria,
training
volume, intensity)

btw, I did see a study posted on letsrun that show the benefits of
mileage.
Ironically, this was an article cited by Gibbens (who seems to be the
resident
whipping boy on that board) in his "articles" that supports precisely the
opposite of his claims ...

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Google "Hadd Training". Follow the ideas set forth until you begin the
formal training for the marathon.

I've been dissatisfied with my current training -- I've sensed that my LT is
too low for some time now. My HRmax is ~185 (as of 2 days ago. It was
200+ when I was 32), yet 165 hr is very uncomfortable for me, indicating
that it's past my LT.

Interestingly, I still have my sprint: I outkicked a teenager at my last
race. It's my LT that's messed up.

In addition, guys my age I could beat handily 20 yrs ago, by 1-2 minutes in
a 10k, now beat me.

I'm going to give Hadd's LT enhancement method a try after my next race.
Daniel's running formula book put me into a coma with his rote tables and
and runs at 8:42.5 min/mile based on a VV02max of 43, etc.

I'm also scaling back my number of minutes of actual speed in a speed
workout from 20-22 back to 15. My speed workouts were from 12:00 - 15:30 of
actual speed (short and sweet) when I was at my peak 20 yrs ago.

Reading what people seem to be doing these days got me to try more. I got
that 12 -15 minute rule from reading Marty Liquori's Guide for the Elite
Runner many years ago. He was a world class 5k guy back then. I've also
read that the Kenyans do relatively little short speed work. Maybe there is
something to Liquori's guidelines after all...

-- Dan