Very old-school Campy is valuable?

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:17:53 -0400, "Phil,
Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

Dear Phil,

The Campagnolo Gran Sport appears on page 163 of Frank
Berto's "The Dancing Chain" and was first made in 1951:

"The Gran Sport is often described as the first
parallelogram rear derailleur, but it was not. Most writers
suggest that Campagnolo copied the Gran Sport from the 1938
Nivex or the JIC. However, I believe that the real inventor
of Campagnolo's Gran Sport parallelogram rear derailleur was
probably Francesco Ghiggini. He obtained Italian patents on
the design in 1937, 1938, and 1941. He sold the rights to
his patents to Campagnolo in 1951. The story of the birth of
the Gran Sport is conjecture, because neither Tulllio
Campagnolo, nor his son Valentino, has ever provided a
proper history of the company."

"With the Gran Sport, Campagnolo took the parallelogram rear
derailleur design, refined it, and made it a commercial
success. With hindsight, it might be suggested that Coppi
and Bartali did Campagnolo a great favor in 1949 by forcing
him to abandon the Corsa and Paris-Roubaix gears and
introduce the Gran Sport."

So it's probably a collector's item in that it's the oldest
Campy derailleur that looks like a modern derailleur.

As for what it's worth, the bid history shows eight
collectors bidding increasingly impressive amounts for
something that probably won't shift as well as a $10
replacement from the local bike shop's junk bin.

To three of them, it was worth over $500.

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel said:

As for what it's worth, the bid history shows eight
collectors bidding increasingly impressive amounts for
something that probably won't shift as well as a $10
replacement from the local bike shop's junk bin.

I can't speak for the performance of the Gran
Sport, but I've put a lot of miles on an old
Record (steel & bronze) rear derailleur with
similar geometry, and it shifts better than
most people would expect it to.

Tom Ace

On 30 May 2005 22:10:21 -0700, "Tom Ace" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

As for what it's worth, the bid history shows eight
collectors bidding increasingly impressive amounts for
something that probably won't shift as well as a $10
replacement from the local bike shop's junk bin.

I can't speak for the performance of the Gran
Sport, but I've put a lot of miles on an old
Record (steel & bronze) rear derailleur with
similar geometry, and it shifts better than
most people would expect it to.

Tom Ace

Dear Tom,

I expect that a new-in-box Gran Sport would shift better
than most people would expect, but I also expect that the
first model could have stood a number of improvements.

The used derailleur in question, however, is probably badly
worn, since the description mentions that two rivets have
been replaced.

As a side note, the holes drilled in the smooth pulleys on
this eBay item presumably caused the hearts of collectors to
beat faster--the Swiss-cheese pulleys vanished by 1953, when
they were replaced by dull solid pulleys. In all likelihood,
someone noticed that the holes cost money to drill and
promptly filled up with oil and grime.

Carl Fogel

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

The dumbass answer is if someone will pay that then it is indeed that valuable.
And this isn't a fluke. People pay crazy money to restore and complete vintage
bikes.

Check out the prices shown in the "Market Highs" box at the bottom right of this
page. These guys are a great source for all sorts of vintage road bike info.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com./index.htm

Ron

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

It is certainly very old. Probably from the early '60s or earlier. I had
one on my first 10-speed, which I got in maybe '62. But, I don't recall
the drilled pulleys, and I think they are not supposed to be like that.
As I recall, they were plain and round, not even indented for the chain
links. I also don't recall the elongated cage.

Front derailleur that went with that was not a parallelogram, but had a
rod that was pushed out from the base when you pulled the cable.

Oh, and yes, the price was way over the top as far as I am concerned.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all
_`\(,_ | mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so
(_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am
nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this,

Looks to be around 1952:

http://www.campyonly.com/history/timeline.html

Quoted message said:

and is it really that valuable?

It was for "kjnkjnkjn" at least.

--

John ([email hidden])

David L. Johnson said:

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

It is certainly very old. Probably from the early '60s or earlier. I had
one on my first 10-speed, which I got in maybe '62. But, I don't recall
the drilled pulleys, and I think they are not supposed to be like that.
As I recall, they were plain and round, not even indented for the chain
links. I also don't recall the elongated cage.

Dear David,

The first 1951-1952 Gran Sport rear derailleurs had the
drilled pulleys. To the collector, the holes are worth their
weight in--

Well, you know what I mean.

Carl Fogel

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my

Shimangolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

The dumbass answer is if someone will pay that then it is

indeed that valuable.

Quoted message said:

And this isn't a fluke. People pay crazy money to restore and

complete vintage

Quoted message said:

bikes.

Check out the prices shown in the "Market Highs" box at the

bottom right of this

Quoted message said:

page. These guys are a great source for all sorts of vintage

road bike info.

Quoted message said:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com./index.htm

Unbelievable! I wonder if all those sales actually went through.
I could have gotten hundreds for those stupid cable clamps that I
gave away! Actually, I did not have any '50s Campagnolo; mine
was mostly '70s -- the stuff that was crushed by Suntour and
Shimano. I wonder what motivates people to pay so much for a
bunch of old, greasy barely-functioning stuff. I would much
rather spend the bread on something I could ride or something I
could hang in my front room without making the walls dirty. --
Jay Beattie.

carlfogel said:

The first 1951-1952 Gran Sport rear derailleurs had the
drilled pulleys. To the collector, the holes are worth their
weight in--

I saw your follow-up after the fact. Did they also have the weird side
plate?

To all those who have ascribed mystical properties to the shifting of
these old derailleurs, forget it. Campy of this era were certainly the
only decent derailleurs around, but they were [censored] compared to anything
any reputable company makes today.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

The first 1951-1952 Gran Sport rear derailleurs had the
drilled pulleys. To the collector, the holes are worth their
weight in--

I saw your follow-up after the fact. Did they also have the weird side
plate?

To all those who have ascribed mystical properties to the shifting of
these old derailleurs, forget it. Campy of this era were certainly the
only decent derailleurs around, but they were [censored] compared to anything
any reputable company makes today.

Dear Dave,

I can't find any picture of the early Gran Sport rear
derailleur with the weird side plate in Barto's "Dancing
Chain"--but this may have made the eBay item it even more
desirable to the collector. It might have been intended to
increase the range of the derailleur, or it could have just
been a dumb idea that was hurriedly dropped.

My grandfather carried a Springfield armory Colt in the
First World War. Since fewer Colt automatics were made there
than most places, the nostrils of gunsmiths flare with
excitement when they see it.

If you casually mention that the pistol has the badly
designed hammer spur that's so long that it nips the web of
your hand against the frame on recoil and show them the tiny
scar that it leaves, some will beg to to work the action and
see how close the hammer comes to biting their hands.

Reveal that a precautionary band-aid is enough to solve the
problem, and you'll get a thank-you note a few months later
for the tip after the gunsmith finally tracks down someone
willing to sell a similar antique.

The same grandfather was a lawyer and received a
portrait-sized drawing of Popeye from the cartoonist, Egar,
which eventually became mine.

Being even more ignorant and confused as a five-year-old
than I am now, I grew up thinking that my picture of Popeye
had been drawn by my other grandfather, whose initials were
EGR.

It was years before it occurred to me that few professors of
aeronautical engineering spent their spare time drawing
life-size portraits of Popeye, but my embarrassment was
overwhelmed when I learned that the silly thing is worth an
absurd amount of money to cartoon aficionados.

A few minutes spent with any Model T enthusiast or
telegraph-pole-insulator maniac will assure you that most
collectors share such passions. I expect that even now
someone is waiting impatiently for FedEx to bring a small
package with a 55-year-old derailleur, most of whose chrome
is missing.

Carl Fogel

30 May 2005 21:48:17 -0600 said:

Quoted message said:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

Quoted message said:

As for what it's worth, the bid history shows eight
collectors bidding increasingly impressive amounts for
something that probably won't shift as well as a $10
replacement from the local bike shop's junk bin.

To three of them, it was worth over $500.

Wow, and my daily ride carries one of those. It's actually quite a
nice rear der.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

John Thompson said:

Squid-in-Training said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this,

Looks to be around 1952:

http://www.campyonly.com/history/timeline.html

Quoted message said:

and is it really that valuable?

It was for "kjnkjnkjn" at least.

Nice link!

Can anybody read the Japanese on http://www.campyonly.com/factory.html ?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Jim Adney said:

30 May 2005 21:48:17 -0600 said:

Quoted message said:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

Quoted message said:

As for what it's worth, the bid history shows eight
collectors bidding increasingly impressive amounts for
something that probably won't shift as well as a $10
replacement from the local bike shop's junk bin.

To three of them, it was worth over $500.

Wow, and my daily ride carries one of those. It's actually quite a
nice rear der.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Dear Jim,

Cool! (As my nieces would say.)

Has it needed replacement rivets or similar repair in the
last 55 years?

Does it have the drilled pulleys of the oldest model?

And does it have the weird long-cage with the extra arm that
interested Dave Johnson?

Carl Fogel

Phil,

it's worth it to you if you're building a web site like "hicampy" :

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~campa/

Where it's basically a museum of all the early campagnolo stuff.
There are similar web sites for simplex and huret old stuff. These
bike parts have become collector's pieces - collect all 1010 different
varieties !! *grin*.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

31 May 2005 23:13:07 -0600 said:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:21:46 -0500, Jim Adney
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow, and my daily ride carries one of those. It's actually quite a
nice rear der.

Quoted message said:

Dear Jim,

Cool! (As my nieces would say.)

Has it needed replacement rivets or similar repair in the
last 55 years?

Does it have the drilled pulleys of the oldest model?

And does it have the weird long-cage with the extra arm that
interested Dave Johnson?

Sorry, but now I've had a chance to look at the photo. No, mine is
nothing like that. I'd say that it (and the NOS one in my basement)
are both about 20 years later than that one on ebay.

I've never seen one of those very early Gran Sports, until now, that
is.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney said:

31 May 2005 23:13:07 -0600 said:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 22:21:46 -0500, Jim Adney
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow, and my daily ride carries one of those. It's actually quite a
nice rear der.

Quoted message said:

Dear Jim,

Cool! (As my nieces would say.)

Has it needed replacement rivets or similar repair in the
last 55 years?

Does it have the drilled pulleys of the oldest model?

And does it have the weird long-cage with the extra arm that
interested Dave Johnson?

Sorry, but now I've had a chance to look at the photo. No, mine is
nothing like that. I'd say that it (and the NOS one in my basement)
are both about 20 years later than that one on ebay.

I've never seen one of those very early Gran Sports, until now, that
is.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Dear Jim,

Drat! You might still be able to sell your NOS Gran Sport
for a princely sum on eBay. There's a suc--

"Campagnolo collectors thrive on minutiae, and they were
given lots to feed on. There were running changes to the
1950, 1951, 1952, and 1953 models of the Gran Sport. There
were at least three versions, with changes in the limit
screws, pulleys with no holes, or 9, 12, or 16 holes, and
different cage shapes. The parallelogram material was
changed from bronze to steel."

Frank Berto, "Dancing Chain," p.164

Er, a successful collector born every minute.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jim Adney said:

Wow, and my daily ride carries one of those. It's

actually quite a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nice rear der.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:13:07 -0600 [email hidden] wrote:
Has it needed replacement rivets or similar repair in the
last 55 years?
Does it have the drilled pulleys of the oldest model?
And does it have the weird long-cage with the extra arm that
interested Dave Johnson?

Jim Adney said:

Sorry, but now I've had a chance to look at the photo. No, mine is
nothing like that. I'd say that it (and the NOS one in my basement)
are both about 20 years later than that one on ebay.

I've never seen one of those very early Gran Sports, until now, that
is.

That, early Records and the Zeus Criterium are chromed cast
bronze. Nuovo Record and later are aluminum

They are all of generally the same design so a quick perusal
would lead one to mistake one for another.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Phil said:

In my search for a compatible Campy 10 derailleur for my Shimangolo
conversion, I found this eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7156663784

How old is this, and is it really that valuable?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Anybody ever watch antiques road show?

I wouldn't pay $50,000 for an old jug or $25,000 for a lamp either.