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TDF - how does it work?

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UK and Europe
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12 July 2003
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Bigbrian
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  1. Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart from
    the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous by his
    absence in any of the stage finishes.

    And yet the overall classification shows Pena at the top, Armstrong second and Petacchi nowhere
    to be seen in the first 8 or 10 riders, the last of which was 38 minutes off the pace on the
    chart I saw.

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he was
    until he pulled out this afternoon), but how can Armstrong and 8 or 10 others possibly be that far
    ahead of him on time?

    Thanks

    H

  2. This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    ------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C3488D.BE4DE370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks a load. Might as well not watch the ITV2 programme tonight! "bigbrian"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message = "]news:[email hidden]...
    Can someone explain this to me....

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he
    was until he pulled out this afternoon),

    Thanks

    H ------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C3488D.BE4DE370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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    <DIV>
    <DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks a load. Might as well not watch = the ITV2=20 programme
    tonight!</FONT></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px;
    MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DVI>"bigbrian" <<A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> =
    wrote in=20 message <A=20
    =
    href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:d3ccf3=
    [email hidden]</A>...</DIV>
    <DIV>Can someone explain this to me....<BR></DIV>
    <DV>I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which=20 Petacchi<BR>is leading (or at
    least he was until he pulled out this=20
    afternoon),<BR><BR>Thanks<BR><BR>H</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

    ------=_NextPart_000_01AB_01C3488D.BE4DE370--

  3. (bigbrian) said:

    Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart
    from the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous
    by his absence in any of the stage finishes.

    And yet the overall classification shows Pena at the top, Armstrong second and Petacchi nowhere
    to be seen in the first 8 or 10 riders, the last of which was 38 minutes off the pace on the
    chart I saw.

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he
    was until he pulled out this afternoon), but how can Armstrong and 8 or 10 others possibly be that
    far ahead of him on time?

    The overall classifictaion works on total time. US postal had the best time in the team time trial
    which is why there were 8 postals on top on Friday.

    The mountains are were the really big gaps start opening up tho'...

  4. (bigbrian) said:

    Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart
    from the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous by
    his absence in any of the stage finishes.

    And yet the overall classification shows Pena at the top, Armstrong second and Petacchi nowhere
    to be seen in the first 8 or 10 riders, the last of which was 38 minutes off the pace on the
    chart I saw.

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he
    was until he pulled out this afternoon), but how can Armstrong and 8 or 10 others possibly be that
    far ahead of him on time?

    Thanks

    H


    See

    cyclingnews.comtour03

    for a TdF FAQ.

    Regards! Stephen

  5. Oliver Jones said:

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type
    content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170"
    name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
    <DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px;
    PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV>"bigbrian" <<A=20 href=3D""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</A>> =
    wrote in=20 message <A=20
    =
    href=3D""]news:[email hidden]">news:d3ccf3=
    [email hidden]</A>...</DIV>

    Any chance you can fix your posting software Oliver?

    I _can_ speak html, but I rather speak english.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  6. I think you will find that your 38 minutes was in fact 38 seconds. Pettachi lost time in the
    prologue time trial, that is why he is not in the top ten. Most of the riders will have been within
    a minute or two or three until the mountains started today. So it is possible to win the tour
    without ever winning a stage. Just add the daily times up for each rider, deduct a few time bonuses
    and you have the GC !

    Keep watching - I suspect Armstrong was quite pleased to be within three minutes of Virenque on
    Saturday evening. He will pull it back in the time trial stages and perhaps some of it at Alpe de
    Huez on Sunday (ITV 1 if you do not have Eurosport)

    Andy Howes "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    (bigbrian) said:

    Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart
    from the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous
    by his absence in any of the stage finishes.

    And yet the overall classification shows Pena at the top, Armstrong second and Petacchi nowhere
    to be seen in the first 8 or 10 riders, the last of which was 38 minutes off the pace on the
    chart I saw.

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he
    was until he pulled out this afternoon), but how can Armstrong and 8 or 10 others possibly be
    that far ahead of him on time?

    Thanks

    H


    See

    cyclingnews.comtour03

    for a TdF FAQ.

    Regards! Stephen

  7. Andrew Howes said:

    Keep watching - I suspect Armstrong was quite pleased to be within three minutes of Virenque on
    Saturday evening. He will pull it back in the time trial stages and perhaps some of it at Alpe de
    Huez on Sunday (ITV 1 if you do not have Eurosport)

    I've ski'd at Alpe d'Huez and it took some time on the way down in the coaoch before I realised why
    there were markings on the road ... Damn it's steep even in a vehicle.

  8. "bigbrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart
    from the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous
    by his absence in any of the stage finishes.

    when the peleton crossed the 1km to go flag, they all get the same time as the winner (if the winner
    is in the peleton) therefore armstrong does not have to be fighting to win the flat stages, as there
    is no time gain (or only a small time bonus of a few seconds), all he has to do is sit in the
    peleton......they are left to the sprinters to win

    Quoted message said:


    And yet the overall classification shows Pena at the top, Armstrong second and Petacchi nowhere
    to be seen in the first 8 or 10 riders, the last of which was 38 minutes off the pace on the
    chart I saw.

    I know they have a points system for the green jersey, which Petacchi is leading (or at least he
    was until he pulled out this afternoon), but how can Armstrong and 8 or 10 others possibly be that
    far ahead of him on time?

    Thanks

    H

  9. lbockhed said:

    "bigbrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Can someone explain this to me....

    Watching the TDF coverage over the past few days, Petacchi has won 4 out of the 6 stages. Apart
    from the time trial, where his team did well, Armstrong, on the other hand, has been conspicuous
    by his absence in any of the stage finishes.

    when the peleton crossed the 1km to go flag, they all get the same time as the winner (if the
    winner is in the peleton) therefore armstrong does not have to be fighting to win the flat stages,
    as there is no time gain (or only a small time bonus of a few seconds), all he has to do is sit in
    the peleton......they are left to the sprinters to win

    It also makes the race safer as only the front riders will be sprinting to get points/time bonuses -
    everyone else can ride safely in the bounch. It's also easier just to give everyone in the bunch the
    same time, rather than trying to work out exactly when each rider crosses teh finishing line.

    eat (out on the bike for the first time in months this afternoon🙂

    --
    Latest photo collection added 12-July-03: photos.eatnet.org.ukphotos.eatnet.org.uk scot-rail | scotland's online
    railway community @ groups.yahoo.comscot rail

  10. Tenex said:

    I've ski'd at Alpe d'Huez and it took some time on the way down in the coaoch before I realised why
    there were markings on the road ... Damn it's steep even in a vehicle.

    Memories, Tenex

    My second ever skiing holiday was in Auris-en-Oisans. I discovered after a day or two that the far
    vaster area of Alpe d'Huez was just beyond the ridge - well, it was close enough. So I spent a fair
    chunk of my pizza/beer money and bought a couple of one-day passes for Alpe d'Huez.

    Even though I had dry slope skied many, many times and had snow-skied the previous year, I was too
    inexperienced to take full advantege of those lift passes but I enjoyed my d'Huez gentle trundling
    nonetheless.

    In my latter sliding days, I tended towards L'espace Killy and Les 3 Vallées. I never did revisit
    Alpe d'Huez.

    FWIW, I wouldn't like to cycle up any of those access roads either. As you say, they are bad enough
    for coaches.

    James

    --
    homepage.ntlworld.comDscf0632.jpg

  11. "Andrew Howes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Keep watching - I suspect Armstrong was quite pleased to be within three minutes of Virenque on
    Saturday evening. He will pull it back in the time trial stages and perhaps some of it at Alpe de
    Huez on Sunday (ITV 1 if


    you

    Quoted message said:

    do not have Eurosport)

    I have noticed that none of the ITV commentators ever seem to give you any indication of how steep a
    given climb is (either in old or new money).

    Is this not considered important to most viewers?

    F A

  12. Farmer Alfalfa said:

    I have noticed that none of the ITV commentators ever seem to give you any indication of how steep
    a given climb is (either in old or new money).

    Is this not considered important to most viewers?

    I've wondered about that too, but I just saw on letour.fr that:

    "The cat-1 Col du Lauteret climbs for 34.5km at an average gradient of 3.8%. The maximum gradient of
    this col which rises to 2,058m, is 8.5% in the first kilometer.

    The 'Hors Category' Col d'Izoard climbs for 19.4km at an average gradient of
    5.9%. The maximum gradient of this col which rises to 2,360m is 9%. This steep section is in the
    15th kilometer.

    The cat-2 Cote de St-Apollinaire rises to 1,253m after climbing for 6.7kkm at an average gradient of
    7.4%. It peaks at the 156km mark.

    The cat-3 Cote de la Rochette climbs for 4km at an average gradient of 7.4% and peaks at the
    176.5km mark."

    I also found this, a year or two back, from Bruce Hildenbrand's article "Rating the Climbs of the
    Tour de France":

    "One of the most frequently asked questions is how do the organizers determine the ratings for the
    climbs in the Tour de France (TIOOYK). The Tour organizers use two criteria: 1) the length and
    steepness of the climb and 2) the position of the climb in the stage. A third, and much lesser
    criteria, is the quality of the road surface.

    It is important to note several things before this discussion begins. First, the organizers of the
    Tour have been very erratic in their classifications of climbs. The north side of the Col de la
    Madeleine has flip-flopped between a 1st Category to an Hors Category climb, even though it seems to
    be in the same position of a stage every year.

    Secondly, rating inflation, so rampant in other sports has raised its ugly head here. Climbs that
    used to be a 2nd Category are now a 1st Category, even though, like the Madeleine, they occupy the
    same position in a stage year after year.

    Let's talk about the ratings. I will give you my impressions on what I think the criteria are for
    rating the climbs based on having ridden over 100 of the rated climbs in the major European tours.

    Note that gradual climbs do not receive grades. It has been my observation that about a 4% grade is
    necessary for a climb to get rated. Also, a climb must gain at least 100m for it to be rated.

    Categories:

    4th Category - the lowest category, climbs of 300-1000 feet (100-300m). 3rd Category - climbs of
    1000-2000 feet (300-600m). 2nd Category - climbs of 2000-3500 feet (600-1100m). 1st Category -
    climbs of 3500-5000 feet (1100-1500m). Hors Category - the hardest, climbs of 5000 feet+ (1500m+).

    The organizers of the Tour de France also claim that the quality of the road surface can
    influence the rating of a climb. If the surface is very poor, like some of the more obscure
    climbs in the Pyrenees, then the rating may be bumped up. Also, remember we are rating only paved
    (i.e. asphalt) roads.

    Dirt roads vary considerably in their layout, condition and maintenance because there really are no
    guidelines for their construction. This makes it difficult to compare these climbs and inappropriate
    to lump them with paved roads.

    Steepness also plays a factor in the rating. Most of the big climbs in the Alps average 7-8% where
    the big climbs in the Pyrenees average 8-9%.

    Please remember that I am giving very, very rough guidelines and that there are exceptions to every
    rule. For example, L'Alpe D'Huez climbs 3700ft
    (5a), but is an Hors Category climb. This is because it usually comes at the end of a very tough
    stage and the climb itself is unusually steep (~9%) by Alpine standards.

    More confusing is the Col de Borderes, a mere 1000 feet (300m) climb outside of Arrens in the
    Pyrenees mountains. I have seen it rated anywhere from a 3rd Category to a 1st Category !!! This is
    most likely due again, to its placement on the stage. The 3rd Category rating came when it was near
    the beginning of a stage where its 1st Category rating came when it was near the end.

    Flat or downhill sections can also affect a climb's rating. Such sections offer a rest to the weary
    and can reduce the difficulty of the climb considerably. This may be one of the reasons that the
    aforementioned Col de la Madeleine, which has a 1 mile downhill/flat section at mid-height,
    flip-flops in its rating.

    European vs. United States Climbs

    I am often asked how climbs in the United States compare to those in Europe. Most of the US climbs
    are either steep enough by European standards (6-8% grade), but are short (5-10km) so they fall
    into the 3rd Category or 2nd possibly; or the climbs gain enough altitude, but are too long (they
    average <5%) so again they would fail to break the 1st Category barrier and end up most likely a
    2nd or 3rd Category.

    Fear not, there are exceptions. Most notable to Californians is the south side of Palomar Mountain
    which from Pauma Valley climbs 4200' in 11 miles, a potential 1st Category ascent, though it may
    fall prey to downgrading because of the flat section at mile four. The east side of Towne Pass in
    Death Valley is definitely a 1st Category climb! A popular Northern California climb, Mount
    Hamilton, is similar to Palomar Mountain but, fails to be a 1st Category climb because of two
    offending downhill sections on the ascent and an overall gradient of 5%.

    For Coloradoans, you can thank the ski industry for creating long, but relatively gradual climbs
    that rarely exceed 5% for any substantial length (5+ miles). I never had to use anything bigger than
    a 42x23 on any climb in Colorado, regardless of altitude. Gear ratios of 39x24 or 26 are commonplace
    in the Alps and Pyrenees and give a very telling indication as to the difficulty of European climbs.
    One potential 1st Category climb for Coloradoans may be the 4000 ft. climb in about 15 miles from
    Ouray to the top of Red Mountain Pass.

    Other Rating Systems

    Also, it should be noted that there is not a single uniform rating scheme for all the races on the
    UCI calendar. What one race might call a 1st Category climb, may be called a 2nd Category climb,
    even though the stages of the two races are almost identical.

    Riding vs. Racing Climbs

    One last note. I think it is inappropriate to compare the ascents of climbs by the European pros
    with the efforts of us mere mortals. I have said this time and time again and I will repeat it now.
    It is very, very hard for the average person to comprehend just how fast the pros climb the big
    passes. Pace makes all the difference. Riding a climb is very different than racing
    it."

    Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.uk
    ===========================================================

  13. James Hodson said:
    Tenex said:

    I've ski'd at Alpe d'Huez and it took some time on the way down in the coaoch before I realised
    why there were markings on the road ... Damn it's steep even in a vehicle.

    Memories, Tenex

    My second ever skiing holiday was in Auris-en-Oisans. I discovered after a day or two that the far
    vaster area of Alpe d'Huez was just beyond the ridge - well, it was close enough. So I spent a
    fair chunk of my pizza/beer money and bought a couple of one-day passes for Alpe d'Huez.

    Even though I had dry slope skied many, many times and had snow-skied the previous year, I was too
    inexperienced to take full advantege of those lift passes but I enjoyed my d'Huez gentle trundling
    nonetheless.

    In my latter sliding days, I tended towards L'espace Killy and Les 3 Vallées. I never did revisit
    Alpe d'Huez.

    FWIW, I wouldn't like to cycle up any of those access roads either. As you say, they are bad
    enough for coaches.

    James

    I was injured(*) on day 3 at Alpe d'Huez so missed most of it but it really is a fabulous open bowl
    and an absolute sun trap.

    (*) On hired skis about 10 minutes into day 3 on a gentle run from the top. Went down a dip and up
    the other side at a modest speed then jumped as we hit the crest and as I did so there was a sound
    like a rifle shot and I had a ski on the left foot and two half skis on the right.

    The ski snapped literally in half underneath the boot and the bindings held the two halves in place
    which was the worst possible outcome as I acquired defective steering and an anchor all on the one
    foot! ;-) Landed VERY heavily on the right and thought "that hurt" but got up and walked down to the
    resort very slowly and very painfully. To cut a long story short this was one of the occasions when
    a French GP didn't recommend insured recovery and I was in agony for the rest of the week. On return
    I saw a consultant at this end and he went ballistic as I'd damaged an artery and the whole area was
    massively inflamed and swollen and he was intent on operating immediately because he was worried
    about gangrene. I managed two physio sessions a day of deep massage (was that painful!) for a week
    and just about avoided the operation. Still have a lump...

    The skis were not old or abused, there was obviously a manufacturing defect.

    As you say - fond memories! Must go do it again this winter ... ;-)

  14. On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:41:11 +0100, "Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip very informative post on the hilly bits...>

    Thanks very much for that - very interesting.

    I've wondered for many years why the tv companies don't put more of this info on the screen.

    IANATVEngineer so I'm probably talking complete Belokis, but would it be so difficult to put an
    inclinometer on one of the motorbikes and show the resulting slope on the screen? I think it would
    add a lot to what is already brilliant entertainment...

    David

  15. Dave Larrington said:


    One last note. I think it is inappropriate to compare the ascents of climbs by the European pros
    with the efforts of us mere mortals. I have said this time and time again and I will repeat it
    now. It is very, very hard for the average person to comprehend just how fast the pros climb the
    big passes. Pace makes all the difference. Riding a climb is very different than racing it."

    I'll second that, as a young lad I went on a Sunday ride with the Leeds Uni cycling club, "just 50
    miles or so round the back of Otley"

    I didn't realize untill we got past Otley that the two skinny blokes on fixies were entering the
    national Hill climb champs the next week.

    Real serious climbers just don't slow down, you get to the bottom of Norwood bank and they
    accelerate, its inhuman.

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    home.in.tum.deoe quotefix

  16. Very interesting piece and I have no reason to not believe you. I read somewhere that the ratings go
    a longway back to when cars were becoming common place. Michelin produced a guide to the Alpine Cols
    for motorists so they could judge whether or not their car would be able to climb the cols.

    "Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Farmer Alfalfa said:

    I have noticed that none of the ITV commentators ever seem to give you any indication of how
    steep a given climb is (either in old or new money).

    Is this not considered important to most viewers?

    I've wondered about that too, but I just saw on letour.fr that:

    "The cat-1 Col du Lauteret climbs for 34.5km at an average gradient of 3.8%. The maximum gradient
    of this col which rises to 2,058m, is 8.5% in the first kilometer.

    The 'Hors Category' Col d'Izoard climbs for 19.4km at an average gradient of
    5.9%. The maximum gradient of this col which rises to 2,360m is 9%. This steep section is in the
    15th kilometer.

    The cat-2 Cote de St-Apollinaire rises to 1,253m after climbing for 6.7kkm at an average gradient
    of 7.4%. It peaks at the 156km mark.

    The cat-3 Cote de la Rochette climbs for 4km at an average gradient of 7.4% and peaks at the
    176.5km mark."

    I also found this, a year or two back, from Bruce Hildenbrand's article "Rating the Climbs of the
    Tour de France":

    "One of the most frequently asked questions is how do the organizers determine the ratings for the
    climbs in the Tour de France (TIOOYK). The Tour organizers use two criteria: 1) the length and
    steepness of the climb and 2) the position of the climb in the stage. A third, and much lesser
    criteria, is the quality of the road surface.

    It is important to note several things before this discussion begins. First, the organizers of the
    Tour have been very erratic in their classifications of climbs. The north side of the Col de la
    Madeleine has flip-flopped between a 1st Category to an Hors Category climb, even though it seems
    to be in the same position of a stage every year.

    Secondly, rating inflation, so rampant in other sports has raised its ugly head here. Climbs that
    used to be a 2nd Category are now a 1st Category, even though, like the Madeleine, they occupy the
    same position in a stage year after year.

    Let's talk about the ratings. I will give you my impressions on what I think the criteria are for
    rating the climbs based on having ridden over 100 of the rated climbs in the major European tours.

    Note that gradual climbs do not receive grades. It has been my observation that about a 4% grade
    is necessary for a climb to get rated. Also, a climb must gain at least 100m for it to be rated.

    Categories:

    4th Category - the lowest category, climbs of 300-1000 feet (100-300m). 3rd Category - climbs of
    1000-2000 feet (300-600m). 2nd Category - climbs of 2000-3500 feet (600-1100m). 1st Category -
    climbs of 3500-5000 feet (1100-1500m). Hors Category - the hardest, climbs of 5000 feet+ (1500m+).

    The organizers of the Tour de France also claim that the quality of the road surface can
    influence the rating of a climb. If the surface is very poor, like some of the more obscure
    climbs in the Pyrenees, then the rating may be bumped up. Also, remember we are rating only paved
    (i.e. asphalt) roads.

    Dirt roads vary considerably in their layout, condition and maintenance because there really are
    no guidelines for their construction. This makes it difficult to compare these climbs and
    inappropriate to lump them with paved roads.

    Steepness also plays a factor in the rating. Most of the big climbs in the Alps average 7-8% where
    the big climbs in the Pyrenees average 8-9%.

    Please remember that I am giving very, very rough guidelines and that there are exceptions to
    every rule. For example, L'Alpe D'Huez climbs 3700ft
    (1200m), but is an Hors Category climb. This is because it usually comes at the end of a very
    tough stage and the climb itself is unusually steep (~9%) by Alpine standards.

    More confusing is the Col de Borderes, a mere 1000 feet (300m) climb outside of Arrens in the
    Pyrenees mountains. I have seen it rated anywhere from a 3rd Category to a 1st Category !!! This
    is most likely due again, to its placement on the stage. The 3rd Category rating came when it was
    near the beginning of a stage where its 1st Category rating came when it was near the end.

    Flat or downhill sections can also affect a climb's rating. Such sections offer a rest to the
    weary and can reduce the difficulty of the climb considerably. This may be one of the reasons that
    the aforementioned Col de la Madeleine, which has a 1 mile downhill/flat section at mid-height,
    flip-flops in its rating.

    European vs. United States Climbs

    I am often asked how climbs in the United States compare to those in Europe. Most of the US climbs
    are either steep enough by European standards (6-8% grade), but are short (5-10km) so they fall
    into the 3rd Category or 2nd possibly; or the climbs gain enough altitude, but are too long (they
    average <5%) so again they would fail to break the 1st Category barrier and end up most likely a
    2nd or 3rd Category.

    Fear not, there are exceptions. Most notable to Californians is the south side of Palomar Mountain
    which from Pauma Valley climbs 4200' in 11 miles, a potential 1st Category ascent, though it may
    fall prey to downgrading because of the flat section at mile four. The east side of Towne Pass in
    Death Valley is definitely a 1st Category climb! A popular Northern California climb, Mount
    Hamilton, is similar to Palomar Mountain but, fails to be a 1st Category climb because of two
    offending downhill sections on the ascent and an overall gradient of 5%.

    For Coloradoans, you can thank the ski industry for creating long, but relatively gradual climbs
    that rarely exceed 5% for any substantial length (5+ miles). I never had to use anything bigger
    than a 42x23 on any climb in Colorado, regardless of altitude. Gear ratios of 39x24 or 26 are
    commonplace in the Alps and Pyrenees and give a very telling indication as to the difficulty of
    European climbs. One potential 1st Category climb for Coloradoans may be the 4000 ft. climb in
    about 15 miles from Ouray to the top of Red Mountain Pass.

    Other Rating Systems

    Also, it should be noted that there is not a single uniform rating scheme for all the races on the
    UCI calendar. What one race might call a 1st Category climb, may be called a 2nd Category climb,
    even though the stages of the two races are almost identical.

    Riding vs. Racing Climbs

    One last note. I think it is inappropriate to compare the ascents of climbs by the European pros
    with the efforts of us mere mortals. I have said this time and time again and I will repeat it
    now. It is very, very hard for the average person to comprehend just how fast the pros climb the
    big passes. Pace makes all the difference. Riding a climb is very different than racing
    it."

    Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.uk
    ===========================================================

  17. "MSeries" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Very interesting piece and I have no reason to not believe you. I read somewhere that the ratings
    go a longway back to when cars were becoming common place. Michelin produced a guide to the Alpine
    Cols for motorists so they could judge whether or not their car would be able to climb the cols.

    Didn't Duffers wax lyrical (and long) about this a year or three back?

    More interesting than his usual description of the local cakes.

    T

  18. Dave Larrington said:

    Categories:


    [SNIP]

    Quoted message said:

    European vs. United States Climbs I am often asked how climbs in the United States compare to those
    in Europe.

    [ANOTHER SNIP & Thanks, Dave]

    What about a climb from sea level up to the Mauna Kea Observatories in Hawaii? Now that
    would be nasty.

    James

    --
    homepage.ntlworld.comDscf0632.jpg

  19. Tenex said:

    I was injured(*) on day 3 at Alpe d'Huez so missed most of it but it really is a fabulous open bowl
    and an absolute sun trap.

    OUCH.

    Quoted message said:

    The ski snapped literally in half underneath the boot and the bindings held the two halves in place
    which was the worst possible outcome as I acquired defective steering and an anchor all on the one
    foot! ;-)


    Been there, done that, or rather some of my skis have. In my early skiing days, I ploughed (OK
    smashed) into an icy snowbank and one of my Kastle skis was reasonably bent. On another occasion, a
    Bladon Lines rep (are they still going?) borrowed my K2 Extremes without my permission as he wanted
    to use them for a mogul competition. His own GS-style skis weren't really suitable. Anyway, he ended
    up bending one ski and totally delaminating the other. My recompence was a new pair of skis and an
    extra week (free) added onto my holiday. This gift was probably due to the fact that a certain Mr
    Bladon was staying at the same chalet as I was. I've also destroyed another couple of pairs of skis
    without any outside interference. :-) at the time but :-( afterwards.

    Quoted message said:

    The skis were not old or abused, there was obviously a manufacturing defect.


    So, skis can quite easily get trashed. Imagine a MTB wheel. They're quite strong if hit by a bump
    from the bottom in the normal manner of cycling but can easily become distorted if hit from the
    side. Skis can take a lot of abuse, but they do have their limits.

    James

    PS My biggest pre-release was as follows - the intact!!! skis are in my bedroom:

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 23 Apr 2002 20:23:36 +0100, "Tony W"

    Quoted message said:

    Sods Law is that the 'warn up piste' is as icy as hell so you go A over T several times due to
    lack of grip and lack of co-ordination -- made worse by too much apres ski the night before.

    Quoted message said:

    Wrong, Tony

    Sod's law on skis is having a pre-release on your downhil ski at about 40-50 mph and putting your
    ski-less foot down on to the snow. Doh!!!

    To continue... then tumbling downhill on an icy mogul field, breaking several ribs (they're always
    on the right side in my case) and suffering a nasty gash on my forehead.

    And there's more... the blood from the gash seeped down in to my eyelids and rendered me pretty
    much blind for four days in one eye and 14 days in the other. I was forced to don a pretty, white
    turban and the buses stopped on my request. A semi-regal wave was all that was required.

    Finally... as it was late April, although I was not able to ski, I did still enjoy myself for the
    remainder of the holiday.

    AND NO... THERE CERTAINLY ARE NO JPEGS OF THAT ENJOYMENT

    --
    homepage.ntlworld.comDscf0632.jpg

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