EU Constitution

coolworx said:

Aren't you at ALL CONCERNED with being at the mercy of politicos in Brussels?

Yeah, of course I am. I am just as concerned about the politicos in Downing Street who insist on lying to us to justify removing our civil liberties.

coolworx said:

Seems to me, that as power becomes centralized, it trends toward tyranny. History is replete with examples.

Which is precisely why I am an Anarchist. 😉

davidmc said:

Apparently you've never heard of The U.K. 😕 It doesn't suprise me. They are also potential candidates for the E.U., non 😕

It would suprise me greatly that Id never heard of the UK, considering I was born there...

The countries of the UK as the name suggests are united, voting as one. Ireland, (not Nothern Ireland, thats part of the UK) is a seperate country.

I would start a tirade against the teaching of geography in schools these days but considering I cant even spell Chile, Ill just shut up.

I had a very interesting talk with a friend of mine who specialises in European law. She's one of the few people I know whose actually read the document and is definatly the only person I know who understands it! Her take on it is its NOT a constitution as laymen (me) would understand it. Its complexity is due to the vast amount of current European law in place already which it has to take into account making simplicity impossible. Its also written to be unabiguous as possible.

She's pretty and charming so Ive changed my vote to a resounding "Yes".

Shouldnt this be a poll Mr Limmerick?

MountainPro said:

no probs....i would love to visit Chile one day..

I wonder how many times I would have got that wrong if you hadnt put me out of my spelling misery... Its hot and crate of beer is about 5 UK pounds here in Holland. How can anyone be expected to operate with any lucidity under such circumstances?

StartledPancake said:

I would start a tirade against the teaching of geography in schools

its mostly an American thing, kids here are taught world geography from a young age and are very well versed.

StartledPancake said:

She's one of the few people I know whose actually read the document and is definatly the only person I know who understands it!

The document is being critisised all over at the moment because no one understands what it means or what will truly happen when (if) it is implemented.

StartledPancake said:

I wonder how many times I would have got that wrong if you hadnt put me out of my spelling misery... Its hot and crate of beer is about 5 UK pounds here in Holland. How can anyone be expected to operate with any lucidity under such circumstances?

a fiver...?

thats cheap.

i was at a barbeque last weekend that cost £25 per person to get into and the tea/coffee was £4.50 per cup and the beer was £8.00 per pint!!...i thought i was in Dublin for a moment...

MountainPro said:

a fiver...?

thats cheap.

i was at a barbeque last weekend that cost £25 per person to get into and the tea/coffee was £4.50 per cup and the beer was £8.00 per pint!!...i thought i was in Dublin for a moment...

You have to take the bottles back to get it at that rate, but when you take the bottles back your bike racks empty, so... Its a viscous circle you see.

In Holland the local council regulates the price of beer at concerts so if you go to a festival beer is cheaper than at a bar. Yeah, people in the UK have a lot to fear from a more continental lifestyle...

£4.50 for a cup of coffee??? I hope it was for charity mate...

Heard a discussion at the Brookings Institution that one of the English participants noted that he was dismayed by Condi Rice's recent remarks endorsing the E.U. because it would pit one Union-the E.U.-against the United States. It would marginalize your countries foreign policy objectives by making the union speak as a whole. It may be good economically but it would not be a democratic system is what the british speaker contended 😕 .

davidmc said:

Heard a discussion at the Brookings Institution that one of the English participants noted that he was dismayed by Condi Rice's recent remarks endorsing the E.U. because it would pit one Union-the E.U.-against the United States. It would marginalize your countries foreign policy objectives by making the union speak as a whole. It may be good economically but it would not be a democratic system is what the british speaker contended 😕 .

The majority of residents of the UK have more sympathy with French and German foreign policy than with their own goverments (67% being against the Iraq war). I doubt this is a problem. As you say, its just the opinion of one man and hes probably one of those nutty conservative/UKIP guys, nobody listens to them any more.

The EU constitution can be changed if they recieve a million votes to do so, that British speaker was appalingly misinformed so anything he says should be disregarded.

It looks like the French may well ground the constitution last I heard. Personally I don't blame the French. It really isn't right that some remote bureaucrat in Brussels should be able to overturn national policy at the drop of a hat (one example being Greece's fishing policy).
What the French are saying loud and clear is they don't want weak trade unions, long working hours, cheap labour and poor social security protection. It's a case of either living like human beings or selling yourself to the principles of capitalism and exploitation as we witness in China where people work for a pittance to feed guzzling companies.
The whole Thatcher philosophy terrifies the French - exploited workers who don't dare bark at an employer and who have little protection from capitalist concerns. What we need is a decent standard of living for the working person built on the Frech model of high welfare, personal space and state protection.

Carrera said:

It looks like the French may well ground the constitution last I heard. Personally I don't blame the French. It really isn't right that some remote bureaucrat in Brussels should be able to overturn national policy at the drop of a hat (one example being Greece's fishing policy).
What the French are saying loud and clear is they don't want weak trade unions, long working hours, cheap labour and poor social security protection. It's a case of either living like human beings or selling yourself to the principles of capitalism and exploitation as we witness in China where people work for a pittance to feed guzzling companies.
The whole Thatcher philosophy terrifies the French - exploited workers who don't dare bark at an employer and who have little protection from capitalist concerns. What we need is a decent standard of living for the working person built on the Frech model of high welfare, personal space and state protection.

Just heard the French voted it down 🙁

The Dutch are likely to follow the French and also reject the constitution.
It comes as no surprise really. I think these E.U. bureacrats should start planning a typically E.U. constitution that takes European history and concerns into account, rather that simply trying to compete with the U.S. (by copying American economic models).
The thing is, U.S. States are made up of mostly English-speaking Europeans, blacks and Asians while Europe is a multi-lingual, more diverse union of distinct cultures and peoples (of various languages). There has to be more autonomy for member states and more sensitivity to historical differences.
I don't think the E.U. will fail due to this vote and maybe something good will come of it. The French have spoken from the heart.

davidmc said:

Just heard the French voted it down 🙁

Carrera said:

The Dutch are likely to follow the French and also reject the constitution.

yep, seems like this piece of paper is about as popular as a fart in an elevator...

StartledPancake said:

Unfortunatly theres only a yes or no response, I would vote no and vote yes for a greatly simplfied version. 200 pages is insanity, a constitution shouldnt be something thats beyond the average citizens comprehension.

I´m pleased that the French voted no .
It seems to me that the whole idea is dumb : the EU got to be what it is the way that America did , bit by bit , and that the whole thing needs to " grow " in the way IT needs not the way a small group of politicians want it to .
¿ do you remember the old joke about a camel being a horse that was designed by a committe ?

el Inglés said:

I´m pleased that the French voted no .
It seems to me that the whole idea is dumb : the EU got to be what it is the way that America did , bit by bit , and that the whole thing needs to " grow " in the way IT needs not the way a small group of politicians want it to .
¿ do you remember the old joke about a camel being a horse that was designed by a committe ?

It would seem ripe for abuse. Large bureaucracies tend to have a large amt. of redundancy which, in turn, equates to waste. It would make yourselve's a more formidable economic entity but, at a loss to individual, state, sovereignty 🙁 .

That's the point exactly. Seems to me like there is such an obsession over beating the U.S. economy, we're in danger of losing the high standard of living Europeans have enjoyed for decades.
The crucial point however is immigration and culture, plus the fears in France over Turkey. You have small countries such as Holland and Estonia with their own languages and traditions but such countries are at risk through loss of autonomy. The danger is also that smaller countries and cultures could be overwhelmed by people migrating from larger countries.
O.K. in the U.S.A. this has never been such a problem but Europe is far older than the U.S. and there are far more cultural sensitivities, different languages, histories and identities.
When you get down to the basics, the French have rebelled against the attack on France as a nation with its own language and autonomy. The French simply don't want thousands of people from Turkey or Poland or Romania pouring into France and taking French jobs or undercutting French labour. Whichever way you look at it, such a policy is bad for the average French worker who, at this point, doesn't have the option of migrating to Poland until the Poles build up their present economy to match the French and Germans.
The mindset in France is far more nationalistic than you would find in England and, above all, French workers would never tolerate the labour conditions and pensions Brits have been willing to accept as the norm over the last few decades.
Thatcher would never have survived more than a few weeks in France as there would literally have been mass unrest and mayhem till she was literally forced out of office. Sometimes this is the only way workers can protect themselves from politicians and big companies.

davidmc said:

It would seem ripe for abuse. Large bureaucracies tend to have a large amt. of redundancy which, in turn, equates to waste. It would make yourselve's a more formidable economic entity but, at a loss to individual, state, sovereignty 🙁 .

What now 😕 I think the American, Republican, Administrations war, now judging by the Downing Street Memo which states that it was planned WELL IN ADVANCE of their supposed request to use force if necessary, made the French think again on the subject. Why aren't impeachment proceedings for Bush Inc. being drawn up 😕

Just reading the coverage of the Dutch referendum and their decision to vote Nee.
It seems that the Dutch people believe that the creation of the Euro has caused a lot of problems for their economy in the past 4 years.
They're also concerned that as a founding member of the EC (EEC and EU) that
enlargement has seen their influence diminish with the passage of time.
They also feel that their enshrined values of freedom in their Constitution and
Law would also be put at risk if they voted to endorse the EU Constitution.

So all in all, I can understand their reasoning for rejecting the EU Constitution.

I think that this is a crisis now.

I know a lot of us here in Europe still consider ourselves to be a collection of countries within the EU.
But with the creation of the Euro, our economic fates are linked to each other.
The rejection of the Constitution by two countries, prevents it from being ratified, even if the other 23 countries decide to ratify.
It's either all or nothing.

British and Irish media don't appear to be taking this issue seriously - they still think national politics is more important.
While not suggesting that national politics is lesser, I think that the crisis that
the EU may be heading for is being underplayed.

limerickman said:

British and Irish media don't appear to be taking this issue seriously - they still think national politics is more important.
While not suggesting that national politics is lesser, I think that the crisis that
the EU may be heading for is being underplayed.

Strongly disagree. Sure, the constitution ain't likely to go through, but so what ? The EU was around before it, and it will be around after it. For some reason the Media prefers to fabricate hysteria when there are plenty of genuine sources for hysteria out there (eg: Bird Flu, AIDS, Dr.Strangelove dictating US policy etc).

limerickman said:

Just reading the coverage of the Dutch referendum and their decision to vote Nee.
It seems that the Dutch people believe that the creation of the Euro has caused a lot of problems for their economy in the past 4 years.
They're also concerned that as a founding member of the EC (EEC and EU) that
enlargement has seen their influence diminish with the passage of time.
They also feel that their enshrined values of freedom in their Constitution and
Law would also be put at risk if they voted to endorse the EU Constitution.

So all in all, I can understand their reasoning for rejecting the EU Constitution.

I think that this is a crisis now.

I know a lot of us here in Europe still consider ourselves to be a collection of countries within the EU.
But with the creation of the Euro, our economic fates are linked to each other.
The rejection of the Constitution by two countries, prevents it from being ratified, even if the other 23 countries decide to ratify.
It's either all or nothing.

British and Irish media don't appear to be taking this issue seriously - they still think national politics is more important.
While not suggesting that national politics is lesser, I think that the crisis that
the EU may be heading for is being underplayed.

I thought I had heard, thru a reputable American Media outlet, that the Constitution can be rewritten to appease voting members concerns 😕 Then it can be voted upon again, no?

limerickman said:

It seems that the Dutch people believe that the creation of the Euro has caused a lot of problems for their economy in the past 4 years.

The Dutch found out a few weeks before the referendum that their currency was devalued by up to 20% when they joined the Euro. Its pretty much for this reason alone that they voted against the constitution. There was almost nothing in the media here outlining what the constitution contained in the buildup to the referendum. Just as in France the Dutch had no idea what they were voting for, a serious failure on behalf of the goverments involved.

Anyway I thought we voted in goverments to make all these hard decisions for us anyway? Do I ask them to come round to my office and do my job for me?? Lazy, useless gits.