Runners Knee?

Quoted message said:

I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

Could be. Anyway, if you ran a marathon on it, it's not all that bad, at
least not yet.

General principal: if it hurts, don't do it. Reduce intensity and volume
until you find a level that leads to it not hurting. If that requires hard
down time, then it requires hard downtime. Since you've just done a marathon,
taking a week or two off running, then an additional 4 or so weeks before
commencing long runs, speed work etc would seem appropriate anyway.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Some folklore. The knees need to be kneaded. Actually it working on
the quads which releases the tension of the tendons. Also you need to
work on elongating the hamstring. Usually by some fascial release and
deep tissue massage.

Check out: http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp

From a previous post:

Ozzie Gontang <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The second picture at http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp where the
people are on hands and feet with the quads across the lower railing of
a hand rail would be a way to massage out the quads. You can use a
rolling pin on the ground or a piece of PVC, inch and a half or two
inch. Most of the weight is on the forearms and toes and knees.
Gradually you allow the railing/rolling pin/PVC to sink into the quads
as you relax and allow the quads to let go but taking weight off the
forearms and toes and knees. Do it lovingly and gradually.

Great web site Ozzie!

I find that rolling my quads, calves, hamstrings, etc. really helps.
But what seems to work the best for me is a 4 inch think foam roller.
For example, see http://www.smiweb.org/guides/pdf/roller_guide.pdf .
After my first foam roller wore out, I got some pieces of PVC and also
tried using rolling pins, railings, etc. because I wanted something
cheap that didn't wear out, but my experince has been that it is
harder and less comfortable to use that kind of stuff. And its easier
to overdo it if you're not careful. So my foam roller gets used and
my pvc pipe mostly collects dust.

The foam roller also works great on the back (I don't like the pvc at
all for this.)

One of the downsounds of using the foam roller is that you need a
relatively clean area of floorspace and also its a bit bulky. So while
the foam roller works great at home, it really isn't an option in a
parking lot, gym, etc. I'm thinking of trying one of those "the
sticks" for this. Any comments on those? Looks pretty much like an
overpriced rolling pin to me, but I tried using a *real* rolling pin
and the wire axle wasn't strong enough for handheld use and started
bending (though it does work on the ground similar to the pvc). Yeah,
I know I can look for railings, curbs, etc. but I MUCH prefer anything
that rolls to something static.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

To All --
I was recently preparing for the Cleveland marathon and started
getting knee pains, soreness directly below my kneecap. I researched
the injury on the Internet and I thought that I may have "Runners Knee"
so I followed the majority of the recommendations that I read, rest and
ice, and lightly prepared for the last took weeks before the race. I
ran the marathon last Sunday and I still had pain, it increased with
milage and got extremely painful when I walked through water stops, but
I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

Quoted message said:

To All --
I was recently preparing for the Cleveland marathon and started
getting knee pains, soreness directly below my kneecap. I researched
the injury on the Internet and I thought that I may have "Runners Knee"
so I followed the majority of the recommendations that I read, rest and
ice, and lightly prepared for the last took weeks before the race. I
ran the marathon last Sunday and I still had pain, it increased with
milage and got extremely painful when I walked through water stops, but
I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

I'm not a doctor, don't play one on tv, and not good at diagnosing
things over internet, but if it is "runners knee" or a relative,
strengthening exercises, like straight leg lifts, may help. Lay or sit
on floor with legs out straight. Tighten quad in one leg, lift it so
foot is several inches off floor, hold for a few seconds or more,
return. Repeat with that leg or alternate. There's other strengthening
drills that also work, but I think they are better for prevention than cure.

And, yes, also take it easy until it heals. It can tie in with other
potential injuries also. If your doctor seems clueless, you might want
to go to a sports doc or physical therapist also. Many GP's aren't
familiar with running injuries or their treatment, but some are.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

"To all"?..................who do you think you are, Jesus?

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

General principal: if it hurts, don't do it. Reduce intensity and volume
until you find a level that leads to it not hurting. If that requires hard
down time, then it requires hard downtime.

Donovan is so right. Continuing to run when it hurts can turn a quick heal
into a chronic injury. The world is full of ex-runners who didn't heed this
advice.

Based on my experience, the number of days to heal a typical injury is equal
to the square of the number of days you ran in pain. If you react
immediately to an injury, it's amazing how quickly many things heal.

"White tissue" injuries (tendons, ligaments, and other gristle) need help
from ice and heat, since there is very little blood flow in those areas. My
impression is that Ice and heat trick the body into flushing more blood and
nutrients in and out of those areas, which accelerates healing.

In addition the importance of being militant on your therapy (stretching,
ice, heat, etc) cannot be overstressed. Stretch / Ice / and use heat 6
times a day, not once or twice. I find that Ice works very well on areas
around the foot, ankle, and knee. Muscle pulls respond to heat for me.

When I cannot run due to an injury, I can usually hike in the hills or cycle
and get enough of a workout to keep from going nuts.

-- Dan

[email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

To All --
I was recently preparing for the Cleveland marathon and started
getting knee pains, soreness directly below my kneecap. I researched
the injury on the Internet and I thought that I may have "Runners Knee"
so I followed the majority of the recommendations that I read, rest and
ice, and lightly prepared for the last took weeks before the race. I
ran the marathon last Sunday and I still had pain, it increased with
milage and got extremely painful when I walked through water stops, but
I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

It could be signs of a muscle imbalance. Running works the hamstrings, the
quads need work to counter-balance what running does. Biking can help.

-Tony

I thought I had runners knee recently, as well. I am preparing for my first
marathon and the area directly below and to the inside of my knee became so
painful that I couldn't even walk without a very noticeable limp and some
pretty severe pain.

I read online a little test for runner's knee, though, and it seems that
wasn't my problem.

Test copied directly from
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_5/194.shtml#runknee

"The sure-fire test for runner's knee: sit down and put your leg out on a
chair so that it's stretched out straight. Have a friend squeeze your leg
just above the knee while pushing on the kneecap. She should push from the
outside of the leg toward the center. At the same time, tighten your thigh
muscle. If this is painful, you're looking at runner's knee."

I think I actually had patellar tendonitis.

I went to my doc, a general practitioner, and he told me to just stay off of
it for awhile and to take 800mg of ibuprofen three times a day to help with
the swelling. I was amazed at how well the anti-inflammatory worked and I
was able to finally walk without pain. I took another two weeks off from
running and seem to have healed fairly well.

I still wear a knee brace throughout the day to avoid any twists and wear a
patella band around my knee when I jog. I started back off with low mileage
and am able to run about 8 miles now before feeling any twinge of pain at
all.

I ice my knee after a run and continue to take lower doses of ibuprofen
throughout the day (although not immediately before a run because I don't
wish to mask legitimate pain).

Shawn

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To All --
I was recently preparing for the Cleveland marathon and started
getting knee pains, soreness directly below my kneecap. I researched
the injury on the Internet and I thought that I may have "Runners Knee"
so I followed the majority of the recommendations that I read, rest and
ice, and lightly prepared for the last took weeks before the race. I
ran the marathon last Sunday and I still had pain, it increased with
milage and got extremely painful when I walked through water stops, but
I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

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Nine Steps In Assuming A
Balanced Sitting Position

1. SITTING TOWARD THE FRONT EDGE OF THE CHAIR
Only by sitting toward the front of the chair can you assure proper
use of the sitting bones. Otherwise you will be sitting partly on your
thigh, drawing the back out of line.

2. PLACE BOTH FEET FLAT & PARALLEL ON THE GROUND, A FEW INCHES APART
The fee serve as a good foundation for the body even in the sitting
position. Have the feet flat on the floor, straight and parallel to
each other and about 3 inches apart. The pressure should be directed
at the area back of the big toe including the big toe joint. this is
the ball of the foot

3. USE THE SITTING BONES
With some practice, you can readily know when you are seated on the
balancing point of the sitting bones. It will be the spot where the
pressure of the sitting bone is greatest against the chair.

4. HOLD THE KNEES PARALLEL
With the legs bent, have the knees face straight forward and about 3
inches apart.

5. PRESS LIGHTLY ONTO THE BALL OF EACH FOOT, AND ONTO THE SITTING BONES

6. DRAW THE HEAD AND TRUNK UP TALL AND STRAIGHT
With the long back muscles, slowly stretch the spine straight upward
toward the center of the head, the "crown" of the head.

7. HOLD THE CHIN AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE NECK

8. GENTLY, WITH THE SHOULDER BLADE MUSCLES, DRAW BOTH SHOULDER BLADES
TOWARD THE MIDDLE LINE.

9. LET THE ARMS HAND LOOSELY AT THE SIDES.

This balanced sitting position guards the body in several ways.

A. It protects the health of the back properly distributing the
weights of the trunk and head upon the pelvis. The vertebrae of the
lower back are in proper balance and therefore can readily sustain this
weight.

B. It protects the shape of the body. two important muscles for the
attractive contours of the body are being maintained in tonic
condition. The long back muscles are at work holding the trunk erect
and carrying some of its weight. With the trunk weight on the sitting
bones and connected with the ball of the foot, the abdomen can easily
be held flat.

THIS IS THE MOST RESTFUL SITTING POSITION

Aligned and Balanced.

Look Better, Feel Better
Bess M. Mensendieck, M.D.
© 1954
(out of print)

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Shawn,

Thanks for sharing with the group the knee test from CoolRunning

Regarding the Patella tendonitis, from 30 years of observing tens of
thousands of runners that came through the San Diego Marathon Clinic
and being interested in the aches and pains from all my own running;
and being influenced by different body workers from Ida Rolf to Moshe
Feldenkrais to Matthew Alexander to Bess Mensendieck I continue to ask
the people with runner's knee to look at the idea that when the Knees
Need help look to Kneading the Quads...and at the same time look to
loosening the hamstrings...and look to one's posture during the 40 to
80 hours a week when one is awake and working or relaxing and doing
their sitting-unconsciously.

The article: Is it the Quad or the Ham, touches the issue:
http://www.mindfulness.com/of5.asp.

In health and on the run,

Ozzie Gontang
[email hidden]
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

In article <[email hidden]>, Shawn Pennington

Quoted message said:

I thought I had runners knee recently, as well. I am preparing for my first
marathon and the area directly below and to the inside of my knee became so
painful that I couldn't even walk without a very noticeable limp and some
pretty severe pain.

I read online a little test for runner's knee, though, and it seems that
wasn't my problem.

Test copied directly from
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_5/194.shtml#runknee

"The sure-fire test for runner's knee: sit down and put your leg out on a
chair so that it's stretched out straight. Have a friend squeeze your leg
just above the knee while pushing on the kneecap. She should push from the
outside of the leg toward the center. At the same time, tighten your thigh
muscle. If this is painful, you're looking at runner's knee."

I think I actually had patellar tendonitis.

I went to my doc, a general practitioner, and he told me to just stay off of
it for awhile and to take 800mg of ibuprofen three times a day to help with
the swelling. I was amazed at how well the anti-inflammatory worked and I
was able to finally walk without pain. I took another two weeks off from
running and seem to have healed fairly well.

I still wear a knee brace throughout the day to avoid any twists and wear a
patella band around my knee when I jog. I started back off with low mileage
and am able to run about 8 miles now before feeling any twinge of pain at
all.

I ice my knee after a run and continue to take lower doses of ibuprofen
throughout the day (although not immediately before a run because I don't
wish to mask legitimate pain).

Shawn

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To All --
I was recently preparing for the Cleveland marathon and started
getting knee pains, soreness directly below my kneecap. I researched
the injury on the Internet and I thought that I may have "Runners Knee"
so I followed the majority of the recommendations that I read, rest and
ice, and lightly prepared for the last took weeks before the race. I
ran the marathon last Sunday and I still had pain, it increased with
milage and got extremely painful when I walked through water stops, but
I finished the race. I am waiting to see my doctor but I was wondering
if the symptoms sound like "runners knee" and if so, am I going to have
to take it easy until it heals? This injury is driving me nuts because
I don't know what to do and I can't stand not being able to run.
Thoughts?

In article <[email hidden]>, gontang215
@sbcglobal.net says...

Quoted message said:

Shawn,

Thanks for sharing with the group the knee test from CoolRunning

Thanks, indeed. I have been to the doctor last week. He examined my knee
and did exactly the same test you mentioned and found the pain. An MR of
my knee was taken to be sure. After examining the MR he told me that MR
showed nothing but worn cartilages may not show on an MR. He told me
that my cartilage behind the kneecap was worn and there is no remedy to
that except taking some of my sports lightly. He told me not to do and
leg extensions, and that I should prefer leg presses. He offered I
should take Glucosamine-Chondroitin tablets which *MAY* help build back
my cartilage. He also told that the pain would make highs and lows with
time and I should behave accordingly.

In my country, running (or other sports for that matter) are rare so he
did not diagnose it as Runners Knee, but according to the link, I have
exactly that.

So here is the question. Is Runners Knee irreversible as the doctor told
me? Is there any possibility of my injury being something else?

As you can see, I am very depressed about it. I have not been running
for 4 months now, and I miss it.

Thanks for any input.
--
Burak
please remove Dot NOREPLY Dot to reply

Quoted message said:

cartilage behind the kneecap was worn and there is no remedy

I once dated a woman who went on to become a doctor, and that's the
full extent of my medical background.

However: my father apparently has essentially no cartilage remaining in
one of his knees, and is prepared to have the knee surgically replaced
with a chunk of metal or plastic or whatever. I figured there had to
be less drastic alternatives to that - and also better options than the
heart-attack pills (Vioxx, Bextra) he had been prescribed in the
meantime, and found these links, some of which may be worth your while
to check out:

http://www.kneereplacementinfo.com/knee-surgery-alternatives.html
http://www.stoneclinic.com/index_glucosamine.htm
http://www.kneeguru.co.uk/html/steps/step_07_arthritis/cartilage.html
http://www.biomet.com/patients/patient_education/supplements.cfm
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/health/Articles/a2004-03-31-mag-knees.html

These were merely among the first I found - there's tons of joint info
out there, and you'll have no trouble finding more via google or via
links from the first couple pages you unearth.

Unfortunately it seems that my dad's not inclined to take any of his
health into his own hands; he'd prefer to just take whatever pills the
doctor prescribes then have body parts replaced when the doctor says
so. I wish you better luck.