improving training

frenk said:

Hi everybody,
At the moment my main limiter is climbing (I mean climbing longish/quite steep hills).
My training for climbing has always been the same: going to a long, hard climb (not too difficult to find something like 8km at 9% here), climb it at a steady pace (the higher pace I can keep for 40min. or so).
Since I like climbing, I do it quite often (but rarely more than once per week).
More than that, almost all my rides are up and downs, including short and not so steep hills.

I'm realizing that there should be a more efficient way to climb better.

I've read Friel's training bible but I'm somewhat confused: he lists several workouts to improve strength, anaerobic endurance, power, etc... but I can't understand which ones are the aspects most involved in climbing.

Some tips?

Hello Frenk,
training it is a mixture of all that aspects; If your target is "climbing more longer " think that most relevant aspect for your training session is your Aerobic Endurance and Power. Naturally you can't training only one aspect (the right mix depends on intensitiy and duration of your efforts), include in your session some intervals training (multiples cycle working closer or little above your LT for some minute, and rest for 3-5 min before starting a new interval).

Ciao Matteo
ps:I know this kind of mountain profiles, because i also leave in Switzerland (Ticino).
Ciao Matteo

matteobma said:

Hello Frenk,
training it is a mixture of all that aspects; If your target is "climbing more longer " think that most relevant aspect for your training session is your Aerobic Endurance and Power.

Sorry, I should have said that. My goal is "climbing faster". I'm not so bad at climbing and I usually have no problems getting to the top.
...but I want to get to there in less time :-)

Quoted post said:

Naturally you can't training only one aspect (the right mix depends on intensitiy and duration of your efforts), include in your session some intervals training (multiples cycle working closer or little above your LT for some minute, and rest for 3-5 min before starting a new interval).

Intervals are sure something I will introduce!

Quoted post said:

Ciao Matteo
ps:I know this kind of mountain profiles, because i also leave in Switzerland (Ticino).
Ciao Matteo

The world's small!!! 😄

Thanks
Frenk

frenk said:

My goal is "climbing faster". I'm not so bad at climbing and I usually have no problems getting to the top.
...but I want to get to there in less time :-)

Ok, now we're getting a little more specific. Almost all the questions I've read here seem to boil down to either 1) how can I generate MORE power, or 2) how can I hold my power LONGER? (or sometimes both)

So, is your problem one of these two? Do the other climbers power away from you right from the start of the hill, or do you blow up halfway up the hill and drop off the pack with a drastic downshift while they keep going?

frenk said:

Sorry, I should have said that. My goal is "climbing faster". I'm not so bad at climbing and I usually have no problems getting to the top.
...but I want to get to there in less time :-)

Intervals are sure something I will introduce!

The world's small!!! 😄

Thanks
Frenk

If you want to climb faster you need to either

1) increase the power that you can *sustain* on the hills (mountains) that you ride -- for long climbs this is related to your LT and sustainable power, however, it is 'limited' by your VO2max/MAP

2) weigh less

or 3) a combination of 1 and 2

4) there are other things such as nutrition and hydration - i.e. if you are glycogen depleted or dehydrated you'll be slower than if you are fully 'topped' up.

To increase your LT and sustainable power you need to do longish intervals of e.g., 15 to 30-mins at just below the work rate you can sustain for ~ 1-hr, with 1 to 4 repeats and once to three times per week. (there are of course other ways of doing this, this is just one idea).

To increase your MAP/VO2max, shorter more intense intervals of 3 - 8mins repeated for around 30-mins of work maybe once or twice/week

Are you anywhere near the col de la Facille (sp?), i used to climb this pass from France to Switzerland?

Ric

frenchyge said:

Ok, now we're getting a little more specific. Almost all the questions I've read here seem to boil down to either 1) how can I generate MORE power, or 2) how can I hold my power LONGER? (or sometimes both)

So, is your problem one of these two? Do the other climbers power away from you right from the start of the hill, or do you blow up halfway up the hill and drop off the pack with a drastic downshift while they keep going?

You're right, my question looks like a very common FAQ!
My case is more the first one: they power away from the start.
I can usually keep my pace til the end, sometimes I can even go faster and faster.
What I find difficult is starting very fast from the beginning (of course "the others" are still faster at the end).

Maybe I should make things clear, I'm not that bad, it's just that I see a lot of room for improvement.

If it can help, I did a Conconi test at the end of last year and it showed a power of 320W at thresold (177bpm).
I'm 23 years old and I only do "weekend races" from time to time - nothing too serious.

ric_stern/RST said:

If you want to climb faster you need to either

1) increase the power that you can *sustain* on the hills (mountains) that you ride -- for long climbs this is related to your LT and sustainable power, however, it is 'limited' by your VO2max/MAP

2) weigh less

or 3) a combination of 1 and 2

4) there are other things such as nutrition and hydration - i.e. if you are glycogen depleted or dehydrated you'll be slower than if you are fully 'topped' up.

To increase your LT and sustainable power you need to do longish intervals of e.g., 15 to 30-mins at just below the work rate you can sustain for ~ 1-hr, with 1 to 4 repeats and once to three times per week. (there are of course other ways of doing this, this is just one idea).

To increase your MAP/VO2max, shorter more intense intervals of 3 - 8mins repeated for around 30-mins of work maybe once or twice/week

Are you anywhere near the col de la Facille (sp?), i used to climb this pass from France to Switzerland?

Ric

Have a question on the 3-8 minute intervals. Would these be done at the same levels? I do my 3 or 4 minute intervals at roughly vo2max power and know I couldn't hold that same level for 8 minutes. Or will some level between "threshold" and vo2max be more suitable for the longer intervals? And will they raise vo2max as affectively?

ric_stern/RST said:

If you want to climb faster you need to either

1) increase the power that you can *sustain* on the hills (mountains) that you ride -- for long climbs this is related to your LT and sustainable power, however, it is 'limited' by your VO2max/MAP

2) weigh less

or 3) a combination of 1 and 2

4) there are other things such as nutrition and hydration - i.e. if you are glycogen depleted or dehydrated you'll be slower than if you are fully 'topped' up.

Point 1) seems like what I have to improve.
Point 2) can be better but not that much, I will loose 1kg, maybe 2, but I don't think much more (right now I'm 71kg/1.84cm).
Point 4) doesn't seem my case. I could be wrong, but my performance level doesn't usually drop during the hill.

Quoted post said:

To increase your LT and sustainable power you need to do longish intervals of e.g., 15 to 30-mins at just below the work rate you can sustain for ~ 1-hr, with 1 to 4 repeats and once to three times per week. (there are of course other ways of doing this, this is just one idea).

To increase your MAP/VO2max, shorter more intense intervals of 3 - 8mins repeated for around 30-mins of work maybe once or twice/week

you are suggesting:
- 1 to 4 x 15' to 30' (for example 3 times 20 minutes)
- 3' to 8' for a total of 30' (for example 10x3' or 5x6'😉
please correct me if I got it wrong.
What about recovery time?

Quoted post said:

Are you anywhere near the col de la Facille (sp?), i used to climb this pass from France to Switzerland?

Ric

I think it's Col de la Faucille. I'm a bit far and I never did it, but that's a great idea for next week's long ride! 🙂

Thanks everybody for the help!

frenk said:

You're right, my question looks like a very common FAQ!
My case is more the first one: they power away from the start.
I can usually keep my pace til the end, sometimes I can even go faster and faster.
What I find difficult is starting very fast from the beginning (of course "the others" are still faster at the end).

Maybe I should make things clear, I'm not that bad, it's just that I see a lot of room for improvement.

If you're able to hold your pace all the way to the end (and even accelerate during the climb), then you're certainly not pushing your power to the limit. As a challenge, you could probably go harder at the bottom and then see how long you can maintain that higher speed. With a little teeth gritting, you might find that you're near the top before you really start hurting. Then you just make that final push to the top and you're done.

Personally, I like to spin up the cadence a little at the bottom of the hill just before I reach the incline. Then I just have to bear down a little while I hear the satisfying sounds of downshifting and standing behind me. By just pushing harder and resisting the urge to downshift I usually find that I've dropped the group by the middle of the climb and can just spin up the last quarter for a bit of recovery.

Of course, there's no substitute for sheer power, but it sounds like you might still have a little that you're not using.