Recumbent bicycles · Public discussion

Centerpoint steering

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Recumbent bicycles
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8 May 2005
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7 June 2005
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  1. Hello,

    I have started reading http://www.eland.org.uk/steer_intro.html and I
    have a question regarding this:

    Quoted message said:

    Also, if just one of the front wheels is braked, or the two front


    wheels are

    Quoted message said:

    braked unevenly, the forces should again all pass through the kingpin


    axes and

    Quoted message said:

    not affect the steering.

    How is this possible?

    The wheel can turn around the kingpin , and it's axel is not exactly on
    the kingpin, so any force on the wheel axle (which would be created by
    breaking) would turn the wheel and affect the steering.

    right?

    -Leav

  2. Quoted message said:

    Hello,

    I have started reading http://www.eland.org.uk/steer_intro.html and I
    have a question regarding this:

    Quoted message said:

    Also, if just one of the front wheels is braked, or the two front


    wheels are

    Quoted message said:

    braked unevenly, the forces should again all pass through the


    kingpin

    Quoted message said:

    axes and

    Quoted message said:

    not affect the steering.

    How is this possible?

    The wheel can turn around the kingpin , and it's axel is not exactly


    on

    Quoted message said:

    the kingpin, so any force on the wheel axle (which would be created


    by

    Quoted message said:

    breaking) would turn the wheel and affect the steering.

    right?

    -Leav

    No, the kingpin's axis is not vertical. It is angled so that the bottom
    of the kingpin is farther out than the top. In order to design
    zero-scrub-radius steering (which is what you're describing and *not*
    centerpoint steering), the kingpin's axis should intersect the ground
    on the same line as the centerline of the tire. This will prevent the
    tire from being steered right or left by off-center braking (not
    "breaking"😉 forces.

    Jeff

  3. Leav said:

    [A tadpole's front] axle is not exactly on the kingpin, so any
    force on the wheel axle (which would be created by braking) would
    turn the wheel and affect the steering.

    To which Jeff (very astutely IMHO) replied:

    Quoted message said:

    ... the kingpin's axis should intersect the ground on the same
    line as the centerline of the tire. This will prevent the tire
    from being steered right or left by off-center braking...

    But having been officially notified now in another thread that:

    Quoted message said:

    ... experts are welcome here too provided they do not go on and
    on at too great a length.

    Perhaps, I too (a modest non-expert) can expand a bit:

    It may help to think of braking force applied to the hub carrier
    assembly (kingpin) at the tire's contact patch. If a line through
    the rotational axis of the kingpin hits the center of that patch,
    almost no matter what kind of other parts are in the assembly or
    their 'internal' geometry, then the braking force will ultimately
    have almost no 'lever arm' to cause the kingpin to turn and steer
    the trike.

    FWIW: There's a bit of highly technical design and jargon in the
    science (and art) of steering with a two-wheeled 'axle', most of
    which is of almost no relevance to most tadpole riders. E.g.,
    the tire's contact patch is really usually slightly behind the
    kingpin's ground reference point, (which most folks think of as
    'trail'😉 to enhance high speed stability.

    Most newer tadpole designs also have the tread contact patch
    located just inboard of the kingpin's ground reference point, so
    that single-sided braking actually applies a small intentional
    force toward rotating the kingpin away from the braking side.
    For example, if you apply only the right side brake, this force
    would try to steer the trike to the left. But braking on one
    wheel to the right of the trike's center of gravity also creates
    a couple (or moment) on the trike as a whole ('body' or mass)
    that tries to make it turn to the right. If this steering design
    (called ABC for Asymmetrical Brake Compensation on the LoGo
    trikes) is done well, the end result will be that the two forces
    almost exactly balance, and the trike shows almost no tendency
    to pull to the side, even under very heavy one-sided braking.
    The design tradeoffs for ABC are relatively trivial, and most
    trikeys who've ridden a tadpole with this design love its added
    safety and convenience.

    Regards,
    Wayne

  4. Leav said:

    [A tadpole's front] axle is not exactly on the kingpin, so any
    force on the wheel axle (which would be created by braking) would
    turn the wheel and affect the steering.

    To which Jeff (very astutely IMHO) replied:

    Quoted message said:

    ... the kingpin's axis should intersect the ground on the same
    line as the centerline of the tire. This will prevent the tire
    from being steered right or left by off-center braking...

    But having been officially notified now in another thread that:

    Quoted message said:

    ... experts are welcome here too provided they do not go on and
    on at too great a length.

    Perhaps, I too (a modest non-expert) can expand a bit:

    It may help to think of braking force applied to the hub carrier
    assembly (kingpin) at the tire's contact patch. If a line through
    the rotational axis of the kingpin hits the center of that patch,
    almost no matter what kind of other parts are in the assembly or
    their 'internal' geometry, then the braking force will ultimately
    have almost no 'lever arm' to cause the kingpin to turn and steer
    the trike.

    FWIW: There's a bit of highly technical design and jargon in the
    science (and art) of steering with a two-wheeled 'axle', most of
    which is of almost no relevance to most tadpole riders. E.g.,
    the tire's contact patch is really usually slightly behind the
    kingpin's ground reference point, (which most folks think of as
    'trail'😉 to enhance high speed stability.

    Most newer tadpole designs also have the tread contact patch
    located just inboard of the kingpin's ground reference point, so
    that single-sided braking actually applies a small intentional
    force toward rotating the kingpin away from the braking side.
    For example, if you apply only the right side brake, this force
    would try to steer the trike to the left. But braking on one
    wheel to the right of the trike's center of gravity also creates
    a couple (or moment) on the trike as a whole ('body' or mass)
    that tries to make it turn to the right. If this steering design
    (called ABC for Asymmetrical Brake Compensation on the LoGo
    trikes) is done well, the end result will be that the two forces
    almost exactly balance, and the trike shows almost no tendency
    to pull to the side, even under very heavy one-sided braking.
    The design tradeoffs for ABC are relatively trivial, and most
    trikeys who've ridden a tadpole with this design love its added
    safety and convenience.

    Regards,
    Wayne

  5. From what I've read, zero-scrub IS center point steering. The contact patch
    and king in axis intersect at the same point, and produce zero scrub.
    Positive and negative scrub radius are not "center point steering" however,
    and while I've heard that positive scrub radius is called asymmetrical
    braking compensating (or something like that) I haven't heard of another
    term for negative scrub radius.

    Quoted message said:

    No, the kingpin's axis is not vertical. It is angled so that the bottom
    of the kingpin is farther out than the top. In order to design
    zero-scrub-radius steering (which is what you're describing and *not*
    centerpoint steering), the kingpin's axis should intersect the ground
    on the same line as the centerline of the tire. This will prevent the
    tire from being steered right or left by off-center braking (not
    "breaking"😉 forces.

    Jeff

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