mega yardage

I seriously doubt those numbers. The senoirs may train over 50,000
yards per week but at least the club my kids swim with never reach that
kind of yardage for age group swimmers. I am sure that the average
yardage is about 20,000-30,000 per week.

Quoted message said:

What's changed?

Goggles, and the level of competition.

fz said:

I seriously doubt those numbers.  The senoirs may train over 50,000
yards per week but at least the club my kids swim with never reach that
kind of yardage for age group swimmers.  I am sure that the average
yardage is about 20,000-30,000 per week.

It's amazing how poor my news server is. It didn't show any responses
to my query at all. Then I checked on DejaNews and found two responses,
including yours. I also received a third via email.

Your club does a bit more than what I'd expected of dedicated 13-14 year
olds. I would have expected maybe three workouts/week, 4000
yards/workout. So yes, the level of competition must have increased
quite a bit since I was young. 11-12 year olds are doing more than what
I would have expected 13-14 year olds to do.

I also checked the web page for Terry Laughlin's New Paltz Hawks. His
11-12 kids seem to do about the same as yours. His older kids do 6
workouts/week.

But apparently some clubs do much more than that. The email responder

(a coach at a major club) said:

I find it extremely unlikely that a
program of 11-12 year olds is hauling in yardage like that, simply because
age group squads don't get pool time like that usually. However a group of
13-14 year olds swimming maybe 10-12 hours a week, 40-50K sounds about
right. The 13-14 year olds in our program do that (avergaging about 6-7.5K).
The group below them, 11-12 year olds maybe about 30-40K (averaging 5-6.5K a
workout).

My own two groups (high schoolers) will hit an average of about 60K a week
right now, and in the summer probably get close to 70K if i push it with the
National kids adding another 5K. It really isn't that hard either.

So there are huge differences between programs at different clubs.

That major program has 13-14 year old kids swimming long yardage, 2
hours/afternoon, 5-6 afternoons/week, plus morning workouts on 3 days,
50 weeks/year.

At 50 weeks/year, that's far more dedication than my old high school
expected out of their star athletes, much less the junior high school.
What happened to kids being involved in 3 other sports, band, chorus,
chess, and a dozen other activities? Do any kids (besides my own)
actually do chores around the house in the afternoon? When do they do
homework? Has that gone completely away?

If Larry is in, what are the chances of damaging a kid's growth plates
when they're working this hard?

Ross

"Ross Bogue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

fz said:

I seriously doubt those numbers. The senoirs may train over 50,000
yards per week but at least the club my kids swim with never reach that
kind of yardage for age group swimmers. I am sure that the average
yardage is about 20,000-30,000 per week.

It's amazing how poor my news server is. It didn't show any responses
to my query at all. Then I checked on DejaNews and found two responses,
including yours. I also received a third via email.

unfortunately i meant to post it here, but hit the wrong button. Grrr.
Thanks for bringing it here anyways.

Quoted message said:

Your club does a bit more than what I'd expected of dedicated 13-14 year
olds. I would have expected maybe three workouts/week, 4000
yards/workout. So yes, the level of competition must have increased
quite a bit since I was young. 11-12 year olds are doing more than what
I would have expected 13-14 year olds to do.

Aside from development athletes (those who haven't come through an age group
program) I think your estimates of 13-14 year old's training are way off.
While the yardage may be close (i'd estimate 4-6K per two hours) they
practice probably 5-6 times a week, with 11-12 year olds probably slightly
lower yards (4-5K) with 4-5 practices a week. We do more than that.

Quoted message said:

I also checked the web page for Terry Laughlin's New Paltz Hawks. His
11-12 kids seem to do about the same as yours. His older kids do 6
workouts/week.

But apparently some clubs do much more than that. The email responder
(a coach at a major club) said:

Not quite 'major', but ranked nationally at 26th (i think) by USA Swimming
last year.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find it extremely unlikely that a
program of 11-12 year olds is hauling in yardage like that, simply

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

age group squads don't get pool time like that usually. However a group

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

13-14 year olds swimming maybe 10-12 hours a week, 40-50K sounds about
right. The 13-14 year olds in our program do that (avergaging about

6-7.5K).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The group below them, 11-12 year olds maybe about 30-40K (averaging

5-6.5K a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

workout).

My own two groups (high schoolers) will hit an average of about 60K a

week

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

right now, and in the summer probably get close to 70K if i push it with

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

National kids adding another 5K. It really isn't that hard either.

So there are huge differences between programs at different clubs.

That major program has 13-14 year old kids swimming long yardage, 2
hours/afternoon, 5-6 afternoons/week, plus morning workouts on 3 days,
50 weeks/year.

Small correction here. The 13-14 year olds (unless they're freshmen or in
8th grade going into HS this fall) do not do morning practices during the
week, and will average about 47 weeks per year. The program demands quoted
above are for the HS groups.

Quoted message said:

At 50 weeks/year, that's far more dedication than my old high school
expected out of their star athletes, much less the junior high school.
What happened to kids being involved in 3 other sports, band, chorus,
chess, and a dozen other activities? Do any kids (besides my own)
actually do chores around the house in the afternoon? When do they do
homework? Has that gone completely away?

We do encourage swimmers at a younger age to indulge in other activities.
Somewhere along the line they make the decision to 'major' in swimming,
usually about 12-13 years old. We have many swimmers (our senior program has
about 70+ kids across the board) who do other sports. Those who take other
sports as seriously as swimming swim in a different group similar in demand
to our 13-14's, simply because they cannot make the attendance requirements
of the top 2 groups.

I don't think our swimmers are alone in having to juggle 16-20 hours as well
as do homework and socialize. It's simply the commitment level thats
expected these days. Other programs in our state are not as demanding, but
neither are they as successful. I would estimate their top groups doing
yardage approx 10-15K less than ours and (including dryland) perhaps 4 hours
les per week.

Quoted message said:

If Larry is in, what are the chances of damaging a kid's growth plates
when they're working this hard?

As i stated in the email i sent, our incidence of musculoskeletal injuries
is suprisingly low, and injury from dryland is nill. Dryland includes weight
training for the 13 and overs, core work and plyometrics, all with
individualized programming. aside from technical help and education on
preventative care (icing & stretching) i believe the strength training has
everything to do with this low injury rate despite intense training.

There are definately programs who do more with their senior athletes and
13-14 year olds. Was it not for restrictions on pool availability I would
too.

Steve

4-6k a session (2 hours) seems quite typical these days for 11-14 years
old swimmers. It is really needed for them to be competitive :-).
However, you would need ten sessions a week to get over the 50k
yardage. There is really no way to do that unless you double up during
the weekdays. Michael Phelps trains only 10 sessions a week when he is
with North Baltimore. He averages 8k-10k per session. So his yardage
is alot higher than typical senior swimmers :-).

"fz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

4-6k a session (2 hours) seems quite typical these days for 11-14 years
old swimmers. It is really needed for them to be competitive :-).
However, you would need ten sessions a week to get over the 50k
yardage.

You don't need 10 sessions to get over 50K at all. Averaging 4K an hour
(1.30 base, easy swimming for most senior swimmers) gives 4K an hour. six 2
hour sessions will get you close. Using a 1.20 base which is more typical,
at least for my group, at a moderate intensity you can get 50K in no trouble
at all. Add in 5-6K on three mornings and you have 65-70K without busting
yourself too hard.

There is really no way to do that unless you double up during

Quoted message said:

the weekdays. Michael Phelps trains only 10 sessions a week when he is
with North Baltimore. He averages 8k-10k per session. So his yardage
is alot higher than typical senior swimmers :-).

1:20 is fine for swimming free. With pulling and kicking sets mixed in
there, it is really hard to do 4K a hour.

Here is the workout log for Michael Phelps (published in Swim
Technique):

Monday, Feb. 25, 2002
3:30 p.m. (SCY)
(After 4,500 SCY a.m. prsctice--moderate)
WARM-UP
800 mixer on 10:30
4 x 150 kick on 2:30 (50 stroke-50 free-50 stroke)
400 pull buoy on 5:00 (breathe 3-5-7-9 by 100)
200 stroke drill on 3:00
10 x 50 on :45 (2-25 kicld25 drill, 2-25 free/25
stroke, 1-stroke)
MAIN SET (challenge 50s, main stroke)
Michael did fly:
4 x 50 on 1:30 (25.4- 25.6- 25.0 - 24.8) (alt
groups with 1500 mixed drills)
1 x 50 on 1:20 (24.8)
1 x 50 on 1:10 (24.8)
1 x 50 on 1:00 (24.5)
1 x 50 on :50 (24.4)
1 x 50 on :40 (24.1)
1 x 50 on :30 (23.8)
LONG SWIM-DOWN
100-200-300 pull buoy (lungbuster by quarters)
400 choice kick
300-200-100 IM drills
TOTAL: 6,100 yards (10,600 daily total)

So it sounds like you are pushing your swimmer harder than Bob Bowmann
:-).

fz said:

So it sounds like you are pushing your swimmer harder than Bob Bowmann
:-).

This thread is in danger of degenerating into a shouting match, which is
not what I wanted when I started it.

Suffice to say that Diablo coaches a very competitive program, which
features very high yardage workouts (comparable to Phelps' workouts),
and that his is not the only such program in the country. He claims
that his young swimmers are not suffering injuries, nor are they burning
out or switching sports in any great numbers. I have no reason to doubt
his claims.

Also suffice to say that some other coaches (Lemley, for one) seem to do
quite well with less yardage.

I don't really count Laughlin's New Paltz Hawks yet, because Terry
stepped into a program that had collapsed. It's going to take a few
years before we can say whether he's built it into a regional power.

Also suffice to say that all of this is happening at a much younger age
than when I was in school. 11-12 year olds are committing to a single
sport 5 days/week year-round. (Even high school kids didn't often do
that when I was that age. That was college level commitment.) 13-14
year olds are doing workouts that would have left me gasping when I was
in high school. I'm starting to feel very old.

Ross

"fz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1:20 is fine for swimming free. With pulling and kicking sets mixed in
there, it is really hard to do 4K a hour.

well, kicking with zoomers, and pulling can still be done on a 1.30
interval. IM can also be done on this interval, and on 1.20 base with
zoomers. The only restriction is breaststroke. I have a couple of
breaststrokers who can handle 1.30, but most need 1.40, so Best Besides Free
or Primary Stroke sets for breaststrokers may cut into that total a little.

Quoted message said:

Here is the workout log for Michael Phelps (published in Swim
Technique):

Monday, Feb. 25, 2002
3:30 p.m. (SCY)
(After 4,500 SCY a.m. prsctice--moderate)
WARM-UP
800 mixer on 10:30
4 x 150 kick on 2:30 (50 stroke-50 free-50 stroke)
400 pull buoy on 5:00 (breathe 3-5-7-9 by 100)
200 stroke drill on 3:00
10 x 50 on :45 (2-25 kicld25 drill, 2-25 free/25
stroke, 1-stroke)
MAIN SET (challenge 50s, main stroke)
Michael did fly:
4 x 50 on 1:30 (25.4- 25.6- 25.0 - 24.8) (alt
groups with 1500 mixed drills)
1 x 50 on 1:20 (24.8)
1 x 50 on 1:10 (24.8)
1 x 50 on 1:00 (24.5)
1 x 50 on :50 (24.4)
1 x 50 on :40 (24.1)
1 x 50 on :30 (23.8)
LONG SWIM-DOWN
100-200-300 pull buoy (lungbuster by quarters)
400 choice kick
300-200-100 IM drills
TOTAL: 6,100 yards (10,600 daily total)

So it sounds like you are pushing your swimmer harder than Bob Bowmann
:-).

well, my kids have decidedly less talent than Phelps..they need to be pushed
harder!

Steve

Ross Bogue said:

"What is your average weekly training
yardage?" The current tally is

45 votes Less than 50,000
39 votes More than 50,000

A lady I work with has a son swimming with Curl-Burke, a DC-MD-VA area
club. He's in HS and swims nine times a week at about 7,000 (I forgot
to ask the units) each practice.