considering my first bent

"rayswrld" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

[pain riding upright bikes, considering recumbents]
Is back pain a reason to make the change?

For many, including me, yes. Also for many, we wonder
why we didn't try recumbents sooner! Recumbents are
not just for "FOGs" and people with bad backs! %^)

As in all medical matters, seek competent advise.

Quoted message said:

Where would I find information on types of bents and
how to proceed?

LBS (local bike shop), ideally. Not likely in most places.
Openly hostile to recumbents, in a few.

What part of the world are you in? Best to proceed by
riding as many different recumbent types as you can.
There is much more variation among recumbent bikes
than uprights.

www.bentrideronline.com is a good resource. They have links
to most manufacturers in their buying guide and have message
forums including for sale listings. Google "recumbent bike",--
there's much information on-line.

Quoted message said:

I have a lot of other questions but will start there.

Ask away! %^) There's a ready supply of opinion here.

Jon Meinecke

I bike, therefore I am...

Get some professional medical advice, too. You must know what's causing
your back pain before investing in a new bike. You might just have a
great bike that doesn't fit. Recumbents can, conceivably, aggravate
some muscle or skeletal conditions. Generally, upgrading to a great
recumbent is a decision only a few can honestly regret.

david boise ID

rayswrld said:

Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to

Quoted message said:

the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent

of

Quoted message said:

the ride. > Thanks.

Thanks for the info and advice. I am in New Jersey and I am pretty sure
there are two recumbent shops within an hour of my home. I will check
out bentrideronline.com as well as googling.

As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now it
is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the case
and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole life,
and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that
that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit in
a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.

As for other questions.

Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
will they be on a bent?

Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?

Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?

I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.

Again thanks to anyone who has the time to answer.

ray

Jon Meinecke said:

"rayswrld" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

[pain riding upright bikes, considering recumbents]
Is back pain a reason to make the change?

For many, including me, yes. Also for many, we wonder
why we didn't try recumbents sooner! Recumbents are
not just for "FOGs" and people with bad backs! %^)

As in all medical matters, seek competent advise.

Quoted message said:

Where would I find information on types of bents and
how to proceed?

LBS (local bike shop), ideally. Not likely in most places.
Openly hostile to recumbents, in a few.

What part of the world are you in? Best to proceed by
riding as many different recumbent types as you can.
There is much more variation among recumbent bikes
than uprights.

www.bentrideronline.com is a good resource. They have links
to most manufacturers in their buying guide and have message
forums including for sale listings. Google "recumbent bike",--
there's much information on-line.

Quoted message said:

I have a lot of other questions but will start there.

Ask away! %^) There's a ready supply of opinion here.

Jon Meinecke

I bike, therefore I am...

rayswrld said:

Thanks for the info and advice. I am in New Jersey and I am pretty

sure

Quoted message said:

there are two recumbent shops within an hour of my home. I will

check

Quoted message said:

out bentrideronline.com as well as googling.

As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now

it

Quoted message said:

is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the

case

Quoted message said:

and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole

life,

Quoted message said:

and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that

Quoted message said:

that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit

in

Quoted message said:

a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.

Buddy, I'm hoping I can make it another decade and a half and still be
riding. My endocrine system is, like, whacked. :-)

Quoted message said:

As for other questions.

Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult

Quoted message said:

will they be on a bent?

At first, they're frustrating. You can't stand up and grind up the
hills like on an upright. Gear down, find a comfortable spin, and don't
ruin your knees. After a couple months, you'll be climbing hills almost
as fast as you ever did.

(FWIW: I read in Greg Lemond's book that you shouldn't look up a big
hill if you're going for best speed. Obviously this doesn't apply to
recumbents. I'm convinced that part of the reason "recumbents are slow
up hills" is psychological.)

Quoted message said:

Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular

bike?

Quoted message said:

You're generally more noticeable- you're not "the normal bicycle".
Psychology again: anything familiar and not dangerous (like an upright)
"disappears". Anything unfamiliar is dangerous until proven otherwise.
It helps if you wear a leather jacket and a spiked helmet while riding.
:-)

Quoted message said:

Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?

I never have problems making left turns from the turn lane- but then I
ride in the bicycle-friendly Portland area. Your riding may vary.

Quoted message said:

I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.

Everything will be different. Every ride will be in the sunshine. You
will experience a tailwind no matter what direction you go. Mothers
will want you to kiss their babies. Kids will yell "Cool bike,
mister!".

OK, OK, OK... only the last one is true. I've found in my 25 years of
recumbent building and riding that there's very little *real*
difference between riding a good upright and a good recumbent. I am
more comfortable riding my recumbents- and they are my choice for long
day rides and multi-day tours- but I also have several uprights that
serve specialized purposes.

If you're wandering around Bentrideronline, watch for postings from Jim
Verheul. He's an ex-upright racer who's switched to recumbents due to
back problems (I think). He's preparing for an assault on RAAM this
year.

Jeff

Quoth rayswrld <[email hidden]>:
....
| Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
| will they be on a bent?

10 to 20%. Your mileage may vary.

| Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?

Not much once you can ride in a reasonably straight line, which may
take some time.

| Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?

Guess so.

| I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.

Looking behind you is going to be a lot different, more or less
impossible without a mirror. I don't find this as effective as
looking back (on an upright), which bears on a couple of your
questions as one would ideally look back before executing some
maneuvers with potentially overtaking traffic. On the other hand,
the mirror is more efficient, so you're looking back more often.
Parking, carrying, transporting are different depending on the bike.
Risk of theft goes down, I reckon. Typical accident changes from
endo head plant to leg suck ankle grind. Interest level of 8 year
old boys changes dramatically. View of the world changes a bit.

Donn

"rayswrld" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now it
is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the case
and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole life,
and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that
that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit in
a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.

Consult medical professionals, but seek second/alternative opinions.

I was diagnosed with L5-S1 degenerative disc and herniation
in '98. Over a period of about two weeks, I lost 75% of muscle
control in left ankle due to pressure on nerve root. My GP
thought I'd need surgery. Physical therapy gave me back
probably 95%+. Still some symptoms, but not serious chronic
pain. I'm careful how I treat it,-- it's a life-long condition.

My physical therapist explained the condition to me better than
my physician. She explained and illustrated how the bent-forward
upright bike riding position aggravated the problem as did road
bump shock transmitted up the spine. She had never seen a
recumbent road bike, but used recumbent exercise bikes in
her exercise plan.

I cannot tolerate much indoor exercise. I bought a BikeE
AT/XL. The recumbent position (with added lumbar curve support)
and rear-wheel shock address both of the issues of an upright bike
for lower disc injuries.

Quoted message said:

Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
will they be on a bent?

Yes, hills are different on a recumbent. There's no standing
or otherwise largely changing body positions or muscle groups
on a recumbent to assist in hill climbing.

Spin. Spin. Spin. You may need lower gearing on a recumbent
than you needed on an upright for the same hill.

Your knees will thank you.

I was never a fast upright cyclist and am hardly so recumbent. Still,
I'm faster up hills now older and recumbent than I was younger
and upright.

Quoted message said:

Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?

Not really. There's no bunny-hopping to jump curbs, of course.
And depending on the type of recumbent, there may be differences
in maneuverability.

I have three different types of recumbents: a CLWB (compact long
wheel base) BikeE, a LWB TourEasy, and a SWB Volae. Of the
three, the BikeE is probably the best suited for stop and go, high
traffic. It's also the least well suited for long distances and hilly
terrain.. I ride all of them in traffic, but try to avoid fast/busy
streets without bike lane or shoulders.

Quoted message said:

Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?

Same, pretty much. I have mirrors on all my bikes. It is somewhat
easier to look over shoulder on the two with more upright seating.
The Volae with it's more laid-back seat is somewhat harder
to look behind. Some people think lower profile of some recumbents
make them less visible to drivers. Some people add flags to their
recumbents. I haven't found this to be a problem, but then I ride
defensively, predictably. I "take the lane" when I need to and
do not ride in the gutter.

Quoted message said:

I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.

For me, and many others, more fun! %^)

It probably depends on your expectations and experiences.
If you were a pleton-riding serious roadie, then you may
well have some adjustment to make. You may not be welcome
in club pacelines. Your friends may think you've gone over
to the "dark side". %^)

Good luck,

Jon Meinecke

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

(FWIW: I read in Greg Lemond's book that you shouldn't look up a big
hill if you're going for best speed.

The more distant your focus the slower the perceived speed.
An upright cyclist may focus on the patch just in front
of their bike where the apparent speed is the greatest.

Quoted message said:

Obviously this doesn't apply to recumbents. I'm convinced
that part of the reason "recumbents are slow
up hills" is psychological.)

Yes.

I sometimes choose nearer, off-to-the-side, mid-range object to
focus on when tackling a long hill. Something 10-15 seconds away.

Quoted message said:

[recumbent differences]
Kids will yell "Cool bike, mister!".

Yes. And "how much did that cost?"

Other groups may yell, "Clown bike, dufus!" %^).

I attribute that to limited functionality of one of the two parts
of their bodies that God didn't give them enough blood to
operate both at once. %^P

Jon Meinecke

thanks again for all the responses.

A couple years ago I had a professional fit done for my bike. This was
after I had developed some knee problems. After the fit, the knee
problems cleared up and I was having no problems until this year. As
stated in my original post, I have had back problems for years, even
before I was riding the 3000 miles a year I do now. But, I will be
going to the doctor to confirm what i already assume to be true.

Quoted message said:

Get some professional medical advice, too. You must know what's causing
your back pain before investing in a new bike. You might just have a
great bike that doesn't fit. Recumbents can, conceivably, aggravate
some muscle or skeletal conditions. Generally, upgrading to a great
recumbent is a decision only a few can honestly regret.

david boise ID

rayswrld said:

Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to

Quoted message said:

the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent

of

Quoted message said:

the ride. > Thanks.

rayswrld said:

change, and the discomfort making long rides less desirous I am thinking
about a bent. Is back pain a reason to make the change?

Yes, though not all back problems will necessarily be helped. A
lot will, though.

Quoted message said:

find information on types of bents and how to proceed?

If there's an upright bike type you ride then there's probably a
type of 'bent to match it (exceptions, such as downhill race
offroaders and UCI legal racers, but for most bikes, such as
tourers, sport/speed, urban, freighters etc. there are recumbent
options).

A lot of people tend to go on about wheelbases, seat styles and
position of the handlebars, but IMHO the basic functional /type/ of
cycle is the place to start. So, what sort of bike are you wanting
to replace with a recumbent?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

rayswrld said:

Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
will they be on a bent?

Depends on the 'bent and how you currently get up them. 'bents
tend to be heavier, but if you've got the gears and can spin them
you'll get there. Do it on a trike and you can have insanely low
gearing and never have to worry about balance at very low speed.

Quoted message said:

Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?

I find I get more space on the 'bent. Probably the "wtf" factor... ;-)

Quoted message said:

I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.

If you like getting out of the saddle and/or mashing big gears,
then those are habits you'll be changing. Having got out of them
on the 'bent through having no option, I do find it's changed my
upright riding for the better. Other than that it's really not
that differnet in how you do things.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Okay, while working up to making my appointment to see the sports doctor
i have some more questions. No, i haven't made the appointment yet.
Procrastination is my middle name. Why do today what can be put off til
tomorrow? I guess my thinking is that by not seeing a doctor I can hope
that all is not as bad as I know it probably is.

So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
toeclips? Or some other alternative?

That's it for now. :-)

rayswrld said:

Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to
the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent of
the ride. Prior to this year any back pain I experienced in my normal
every day routine wouldn't effect my riding at all. But with this
change, and the discomfort making long rides less desirous I am thinking
about a bent. Is back pain a reason to make the change? Where would I
find information on types of bents and how to proceed? I have a lot of
other questions but will start there.
Thanks.

"rayswrld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, while working up to making my appointment to see the sports doctor i
have some more questions. No, i haven't made the appointment yet.
Procrastination is my middle name. Why do today what can be put off til
tomorrow? I guess my thinking is that by not seeing a doctor I can hope
that all is not as bad as I know it probably is.

So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and holes
in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle would
prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
toeclips? Or some other alternative?

Your wife has great insight. On an upright bike you are bent over and are
afforded the best possible view of your front wheel just as it goes into a
hole or hits a bump. On a bent bike you are sitting upright (little word
play ray) and you can spot the holes and bumps before you hit them. But you
already had that figured out.

Attire? Avoid baggy shorts and shirts that make you look like the Michelin
Man and would invite roadway bees and wasps to investigate your armpits and
groin area.

Toe Clips? Please... No. You are not training for the 1958 Tour de
France.

Clipless Pedals? Of course.

Over think this if you must, but if you come up with any other conclusion
over think it again.

HHS

HHS said:

"rayswrld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and holes
in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle would
prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?

You're not wrong. I find it much easier to spot and avoid bumps and
holes in the road when riding my DF road bike than when riding my bents
(currently ranging from a low USS trike to an OSS high racer with an USS
SWB in between).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
toeclips? Or some other alternative?

You don't need chamois in your pants and you won't want rear pockets on
jerseys. But cinch legs are good, be they baggy or "hugging".

You definitely want clipless pedals, or some other mechanism to keep
your foot from falling off the pedals. Forget toeclips. It's hard
enough to reach for them on a DF, on most bents, forget it.

Quoted message said:

Your wife has great insight. On an upright bike you are bent over and are
afforded the best possible view of your front wheel just as it goes into a
hole or hits a bump. On a bent bike you are sitting upright (little word
play ray) and you can spot the holes and bumps before you hit them. But you
already had that figured out.

I disagree and your word play doesn't fit a lot of bents that have come
on the market in the last few years (it might fit classics like Easy
Racers, Ryans, Lightnings and BikeEs, but not Bacchettas, the various
Euro 'bents, Catrikes and the other heavily reclined bikes), but it may
be because I sit more upright on my upright, and more recumbent on my
recumbents.

This notion of being bent over and staring at your front wheel on a DF
is true only for folks riding bent over and staring at their front wheel
or craning their necks upwards. When I ride my DF, I'm not quite
looking straight ahead as on my bents, but I'm looking ahead well beyond
my front wheel.

Something similar could be said of 'bent riders who have high BB
bikes/trikes and they're staring at their cranks and feet, which block
their view of upcoming road imperfections.

--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

Quoth Victor Kan <[email hidden]_UCEloopdrive.net>:
| HHS wrote:
....
|> Your wife has great insight. On an upright bike you are bent over and are
|> afforded the best possible view of your front wheel just as it goes into a
|> hole or hits a bump. On a bent bike you are sitting upright (little word
|> play ray) and you can spot the holes and bumps before you hit them. But you
|> already had that figured out.
|
| I disagree and your word play doesn't fit a lot of bents that have come
| on the market in the last few years (it might fit classics like Easy
| Racers, Ryans, Lightnings and BikeEs, but not Bacchettas, the various
| Euro 'bents, Catrikes and the other heavily reclined bikes), but it may
| be because I sit more upright on my upright, and more recumbent on my
| recumbents.

So it sounds like you would recommend a classic like an Easy Racer?
Can't go wrong. Or a Longbikes Slipstream, like my Ryan Vanguard, or
another of the many bikes in this low BB category. Rear shock absorbers
might be a good thing, too, though all that comes to mind for that is
Cannondale and Burley (Spider) (but monotubes like Burley and Rotator
LWBs are commonly held to have "passive suspension".)

The thing that's probably the real difference, and something you can't
think out to any useful conclusion but just have to try, is the seat.
At worst, you may be able to replace a seat.

Donn

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]_UCEloopdrive.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I disagree and your word play doesn't fit a lot of bents that have come on
the market in the last few years (it might fit classics like Easy Racers,
Ryans, Lightnings and BikeEs, but not Bacchettas, the various Euro 'bents,
Catrikes and the other heavily reclined bikes), but it may be because I
sit more upright on my upright, and more recumbent on my recumbents.

Of course you are correct - I was indeed thinking about classic recumbents.
Recent events have seen bents with new riding positions introduced. High
racers would seem to be excellent for birding and cloud watching. Low
racers provide a dog level aero riding position. Dogs giving chase are
likely to be energized by the submissive belly up riding position of the low
racer rider.

Quoted message said:

This notion of being bent over and staring at your front wheel on a DF is
true only for folks riding bent over and staring at their front wheel or
craning their necks upwards. When I ride my DF, I'm not quite looking
straight ahead as on my bents, but I'm looking ahead well beyond my front
wheel.

Yore neck gotta get kinda tired after a while holdin it up like at.

Quoted message said:

Something similar could be said of 'bent riders who have high BB
bikes/trikes and they're staring at their cranks and feet, which block
their view of upcoming road imperfections.

For those odd few who are interested in seeing more than feet, knees, sky,
dog teeth, or an impaired view of road imperfections we have the low BB,
under seat steering bikes that offer a full panoramic view of the horizon.
But nobody wants those bikes because they say they are no good at passing
uprights, which, of course, is something all recumbent riders feel obliged
to strive toward.

HHS

rayswrld said:

So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?

It's a non issue, at least on my Streetmachine. It might be harder on a
lowracer or something like that. However, if you do hit a big hole you
take it through the seat, rather than through the wrists, which is a lot
nicer.
I have full suspension, and on a big descent my pal on her DF and me on
the 'bent both mistook a large pothole full of water for a small surface
puddle, and the result of us both going through was she was in
considerable discomfort and nearly lost control at speed, and I got to
find out the sound of my front fork bottoming out.

Quoted message said:

Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
toeclips? Or some other alternative?

No need for padded shorts, or padded mitts either. Cycle jerseys or
jackets with back pockets are actually a nuisance, as you get the seam
pushed against your back.

Clipless pedals are a Very Good Idea, as they mean you don't need to
hold your feet up.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Victor Kan said:

you won't want rear pockets on jerseys.

Up to a point, Lord Copper. If one is using a compartively narrow hardshell
seat, then the outer rear pockets of a jersey are still usable, as I
frequently demonstrate to myself when I neglect to remove my cleat covers
until after I've locked the tailbox...

Use of said pockets to carry bananas, however, is Strongly Depracated

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
My only hope in life is to die before I get my comeuppence.

Dave Larrington said:

Quoted message said:

you won't want rear pockets on jerseys.

Quoted message said:

Up to a point, Lord Copper. If one is using a compartively narrow hardshell
seat, then the outer rear pockets of a jersey are still usable, as I
frequently demonstrate to myself when I neglect to remove my cleat covers
until after I've locked the tailbox...

<aol>

Quoted message said:

Use of said pockets to carry bananas, however, is Strongly Depracated

For banananananas you need a BananananananananananaMate[tm]!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Quoted message said:

It's a non issue, at least on my Streetmachine. It might be harder on a
lowracer or something like that.

Not on my Stinger either - how much lower would you ride on streets?
Not much I'm guessing.

Quoted message said:

No need for padded shorts, or padded mitts either. Cycle jerseys or
jackets with back pockets are actually a nuisance, as you get the seam
pushed against your back.

I wear standard cycle jerseys and jackets because they work better for
me than non-bike ones in every respect other than having pockets at
the back. I don't wear padded shorts on the 'bent.

Quoted message said:

Clipless pedals are a Very Good Idea, as they mean you don't need to
hold your feet up.

I would go as far as to say that clipless pedals are, on a two-wheel
'bent at least, essential. On a three-wheeler you could get away with
tightly fastened clips and straps or foot boards. I would not want to
ride a 'bent (except maybe one of those Giant Revive style ones)
without my feet being firmly attached to the pedals.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound