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UK and Europe
Published
15 April 2005
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17 April 2005
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Bryan
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  1. Well this is a good a place as any to ask this question, it being filled with people who have amazing amounts of knowledge, and like the occaisional beer :-).

    I need help with a question for a beer quiz I'm helping to get sorted out. I know that in London in days of yore, there was a very important man who used to go to a newly opened pub, pour beer in a wooden bench and then (wearing leather trousers) sit in the beer for a while and then stand up to check that the beer hadn't been watered down (normal beer being rathe sticky). What I want to know is: what was (or is as I think the position is still in existence) his job title?

    Thanks for the help

    Bryan

  2. Bryan said:

    Well this is a good a place as any to ask this question

    Probably not quite as good as uk.food+drink.real-ale

    Quoted message said:

    What I want to know is: what was (or is as I
    think the position is still in existence) his job title?

    Sounds apocryphal to me, and I'm afraid I don't know the answer either.

    d.

  3. Bryan said:

    Well this is a good a place as any to ask this question, it being filled
    with people who have amazing amounts of knowledge, and like the
    occaisional beer :-).

    I need help with a question for a beer quiz I'm helping to get sorted
    out. I know that in London in days of yore, there was a very important
    man who used to go to a newly opened pub, pour beer in a wooden bench
    and then (wearing leather trousers) sit in the beer for a while and
    then stand up to check that the beer hadn't been watered down (normal
    beer being rathe sticky). What I want to know is: what was (or is as I
    think the position is still in existence) his job title?

    http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0000544.html

    http://24.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AL/ALE_CONNER.htm

    http://www.stainforthonline.co.uk/2001/beer_wortsandall.htm

    BugBear

  4. Bryan said:

    Well this is a good a place as any to ask this question, it being filled
    with people who have amazing amounts of knowledge, and like the
    occaisional beer :-).

    I need help with a question for a beer quiz I'm helping to get sorted
    out. I know that in London in days of yore, there was a very important
    man who used to go to a newly opened pub, pour beer in a wooden bench
    and then (wearing leather trousers) sit in the beer for a while and
    then stand up to check that the beer hadn't been watered down (normal
    beer being rathe sticky). What I want to know is: what was (or is as I
    think the position is still in existence) his job title?

    Thanks for the help

    Bryan

    The Ale-Conner or Ale-Founder I believe

    Do I get a prize?

    Tony

  5. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    pour beer in a wooden bench and then (wearing leather trousers) sit


    in the beer for a while and then stand up to check that the beer
    hadn't been watered down (normal beer being rathe sticky).

    It's the other way round - they were checking that the beer wasn't
    stronger than had been declared - tax being higher on stronger brews.

    It sounds as if you're not a beer-drinker yourself - beer is not
    normally "rather sticky", and the stickiness is not a reliable
    indicator of the strength.The strength will increase if more of the
    sugars are converted to alcohol, which at the same time decreases the
    stickiness.

    What they would actually test is the wort (pronounced wert) which is
    the liquor sparged from the mash before the yeast is pitched to start
    fermentation. And you thought cyclists used a lot of strange-sounding
    jargon!

  6. iakobski said:

    What they would actually test is the wort (pronounced wert) which is
    the liquor sparged from the mash before the yeast is pitched to start
    fermentation.

    Did they actually do it, though? I've heard of the ale-conner, and knew
    that it was his job to test beer quality, but I've never heard the
    leather britches story.

    d.

  7. davek said:


    Did they actually do it, though? I've heard of the ale-conner, and knew
    that it was his job to test beer quality, but I've never heard the
    leather britches story.

    "An ale-conner was an official whose duty was to inspect commercial
    beers for purity. Custom required the ale-conner, or ale-founder, to
    enter the premises and seize a quantity of any brew served. The sample
    beer was then poured on the seat of a wooden bench. Sitting down in the
    puddle of beer, the ale-conner would allow his leather overalls
    sufficient time to dry. Upon arising, he would observe whether his
    britches stuck to the bench. if they did, he concluded that sugar had
    been added to the brew.

    British custom dictated that if the ale-conner's pants stuck to the
    seat, a more potent beer had to be produced. In Germany, however, sticky
    beer was prized.

    In Britain, ale-conners were appointed by nearly every manor house to
    assay taxable unfermented sugar content. These bureaucrats dragged
    shifty brewsters in to borough-court, or court-leet. At such sessions,
    fines and less pleasant penalties were handed down. Condemned beer was
    seized and given to the poor. John Shakespeare, father of the poet and
    playwright, was employed as an ale-conner.

    In London, the office of ale-conner dates to the first charter of
    William the Conqueror. In deference to this ancient custom, the lord
    mayor of London is still required to don the ale-conner's uniform every
    10 years to ritually inspect a selected local pub.

    In Saxon times in England, rents and taxes were paid all or in part with
    homebrewed ale. In an age when the sale of surplus beer was often the
    only source of hard currency, common folk considered good beer the equal
    of gold. Feudal landlords often stipulated payments of beer rather than
    coins."

    from the "Encyclopedia of Beer", edited by Christine P. Rhodes

    Tony

  8. Thanks all for the help :-)

  9. Tony Raven said:

    from the "Encyclopedia of Beer", edited by Christine P. Rhodes

    That's a third version of the story in as many posts[1], which doesn't
    clarify anything.

    If any version is true, my money is on the version where he sits in the
    unfermented wort. This version sounds decidely odd - why would the
    innkeeper be adding sugar to his beer?

    d.

    1. he sits in the beer to test if it has been watered down / he sits in
    the beer to test if sugar has been added / he sits in the unfermented
    wort to test the sugar content.

  10. davek said:

    This version sounds decidely odd - why would the
    innkeeper be adding sugar to his beer?

    Especially when you consider that sugar was an _extremely_ expensive
    commodity in those days.

  11. me:

    Quoted message said:

    why would the
    innkeeper be adding sugar to his beer?

    Sorry, that's a daft question...

    d.

  12. davek said:
    Tony Raven said:

    from the "Encyclopedia of Beer", edited by Christine P. Rhodes

    That's a third version of the story in as many posts[1], which doesn't
    clarify anything.

    If any version is true, my money is on the version where he sits in the
    unfermented wort. This version sounds decidely odd - why would the
    innkeeper be adding sugar to his beer?

    d.

    1. he sits in the beer to test if it has been watered down / he sits in
    the beer to test if sugar has been added / he sits in the unfermented
    wort to test the sugar content.

    Its the presence of barley sugars that makes it sticky. The
    ale-conner's pants sticking to the bench meant that the ale contained
    unfermented barley sugars and the brewer had deliberately cut the
    fermentation time, as a cost-cutting measure, so he could sell the
    'under-brewed' ale sooner.

    Tony

  13. I agree, although that sounds like it should be an authoritative
    source, it does not make sense on many levels.

    for example - in mediaeval times, pure sugar (sucrose) was extremely
    expensive, far more expensive than maltose produced in-house by the
    brewer. Also, sucrose under normal conditions, will ferment out fully
    not leaving any stickiness, wheras beer brewed from a wort high in
    maltose with no added sugar will not (it will be sweet like barley
    wine).

    I'll look up the source I have for the story later. On the web I found
    these reliable-sounding sources, but web sources are about as reliable
    as a bike from Tescos:
    http://www.the-ba.net/the-ba/ResourcesforLearning/BACRESTAwards/ProjectIdeas/DetectiveWork/IsitSatisfactory/
    http://www.health.gov.je/health_protection/main/history.asp

  14. Tony Raven said:

    Its the presence of barley sugars that makes it sticky. The
    ale-conner's pants sticking to the bench meant that the ale contained
    unfermented barley sugars and the brewer had deliberately cut the
    fermentation time, as a cost-cutting measure, so he could sell the
    'under-brewed' ale sooner.

    Hmmm. That sounds more plausible, but it's yet another version of the
    story (ie not the same as what you just posted, which mentions "added"
    sugar).

    d.

  15. Simonb said:


    Especially when you consider that sugar was an _extremely_ expensive
    commodity in those days.

    It was which is why they wouldn't add any sugar to the beer. However
    the barley does lead to barley sugars in the beer which are supposed to
    be fermented out. If they are not you have cut short the fermentation
    so you can sell the beer before its ready and the unfermented barley
    sugars will leave a tell tale sticky signature.

    Tony

  16. iakobski said:

    I agree, although that sounds like it should be an authoritative
    source

    It's not difficult (nor even that expensive, these days) to publish a
    book and call it an "encyclopedia".

    Quoted message said:

    it does not make sense on many levels.

    Indeed.

    I guess there is some truth in some aspects of the leather britches
    story, but the exact details seem to be rather hazy.

    d.

  17. davek said:


    Tony Raven said:

    Its the presence of barley sugars that makes it sticky. The
    ale-conner's pants sticking to the bench meant that the ale contained
    unfermented barley sugars and the brewer had deliberately cut the
    fermentation time, as a cost-cutting measure, so he could sell the
    'under-brewed' ale sooner.

    Hmmm. That sounds more plausible, but it's yet another version of the
    story (ie not the same as what you just posted, which mentions "added"
    sugar).

    A friend of mine, Bob P, carried this exercise out a few years back
    when he was appointed the local ale-conner for the village. He gained
    the position after many years as beer-orderer of the village beer
    festival [1] (35-40 beers).
    Accompanied by the local Borough Mayor he went around the local pubs
    wearing leather britches and sat in beer.
    Those that didn't stick he pronounced good and those that were Greene
    King he pronounced otherwise.

    To be fair, all the pubs passed the test, as all had supplied him and
    his supporters with copious amounts of free beers ;-)))

    [1] an honoured position I now hold :-)

    John B

  18. JohnB said:

    Those that didn't stick he pronounced good and those that were Greene
    King he pronounced otherwise.

    Did he pronounce the latter Champion Beer of Britain?

    (I had a pint of GK IPA the other day - thought I'd give it a chance -
    and it was like drinking weak lemonade. Ugh!)

    Quoted message said:

    To be fair, all the pubs passed the test, as all had supplied him and
    his supporters with copious amounts of free beers ;-)))

    Nice work...

    Quoted message said:

    [1] an honoured position I now hold :-)

    Been measured up for the britches yet?

    d.

  19. davek said:


    JohnB said:

    Those that didn't stick he pronounced good and those that were Greene
    King he pronounced otherwise.

    Did he pronounce the latter Champion Beer of Britain?

    I sense a degree of mischievousness here ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    (I had a pint of GK IPA the other day - thought I'd give it a chance -
    and it was like drinking weak lemonade. Ugh!)

    You mean it had some taste?
    You must have had one of the better pints.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To be fair, all the pubs passed the test, as all had supplied him and
    his supporters with copious amounts of free beers ;-)))

    Nice work...

    Quoted message said:

    [1] an honoured position I now hold :-)

    Been measured up for the britches yet?

    I'm working on it.
    I stepped into his shoes as the beer-orderer/bar manager at the festival
    three years ago, so given time......

    John B

  20. JohnB said:

    I sense a degree of mischievousness here ;-)

    Mischievous? Moi? ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    You mean it had some taste?
    You must have had one of the better pints.

    Ha! Yes, I expect so.

    d.

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