clean vs. [censored]

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Wit6e.902$4a.82249
@news1.epix.net:

Quoted message said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

Looks cooler.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevin J. Coolidge said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

I prefer a clean [censored] personally.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

Kevin J. Coolidge said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

The clean is easier to learn.

--Falooley

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

Do you mean _just_ the clean, as opposed to the clean and jerk?

If so, I'd say the [censored] will work more of your body, as you have to have
more going on in your shoulders and core to squat up with the bar overhead
than in the front squat position of the clean.

IMO you have to know what you're doing more to do a good [censored] than you do
a good clean. I think you can even get away with poorer form in a full-on
C&J than a [censored], since you get two movements to get the weight up, rather
than just the one of the [censored].

That said, I tend to bruise my collar bone catching my cleans and I don't
bruise much when snatching, except maybe my butt (and pride) when I drop a
lift. I've heard of people hitting their chins, but I haven't yet.

I guess I'm curious about what you mean about "advantage" - in what way?
They are different lifts. From a BBing perspective, one might say that
flyes were better than bench press for pectoral development (or some such, I
don't BB, so I just pulled something out of a the air), but I can't think of
any perspective where you would be comparing the two Oly lifts for an
"advantage." What's your angle, Maynard?

Selene

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

Do you mean _just_ the clean, as opposed to the clean and jerk?

If so, I'd say the [censored] will work more of your body, as you have to have
more going on in your shoulders and core to squat up with the bar overhead
than in the front squat position of the clean.

IMO you have to know what you're doing more to do a good [censored] than you
do
a good clean. I think you can even get away with poorer form in a full-on
C&J than a [censored], since you get two movements to get the weight up,
rather
than just the one of the [censored].

That said, I tend to bruise my collar bone catching my cleans and I don't
bruise much when snatching, except maybe my butt (and pride) when I drop a
lift. I've heard of people hitting their chins, but I haven't yet.

I guess I'm curious about what you mean about "advantage" - in what way?
They are different lifts. From a BBing perspective, one might say that
flyes were better than bench press for pectoral development (or some such,
I
don't BB, so I just pulled something out of a the air), but I can't think
of
any perspective where you would be comparing the two Oly lifts for an
"advantage." What's your angle, Maynard?

Selene

Well, I do power cleans to help with sprints and jumps. I'm taking about
power snatches and power cleans, not the pure olympic lifts. I'm using them
for explosiveness in sport training, not body building

Quoted message said:

"Will Brink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevin J. Coolidge said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

I prefer a clean [censored] personally.

Shaven, too.

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote >

Quoted message said:

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

Do you mean _just_ the clean, as opposed to the clean and jerk?
[snip
I guess I'm curious about what you mean about "advantage" - in what way?

Well, I do power cleans to help with sprints and jumps. I'm taking about
power snatches and power cleans, not the pure olympic lifts. I'm using

them

Quoted message said:

for explosiveness in sport training, not body building

I didn't think you were BBing with Oly lifts, I was just trying to think of
an example for "advantage".

For clarity, when you say "power" clean or [censored], do you pull from a hang
or from the floor?

I would think for explosiveness that pulling from the floor would be more
effective than from a hang. And if you're pulling from the floor and not
intending to squat under the bar, then a clean would be more effective and
less likely to wrack your shoulders.

From just a hang, the clean's advantage is probably that you can pull more
weight, but conversely, I think you'd use less core power to get the bar up
and stabilized in the clean, and a strong core can help you in sprints and
jumps, too. Hobbes probably has better input on this.

You probably just need to do both :-)

What's your sprinting and jumping sport?

Selene

"Will Brink" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Kevin J. Coolidge said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

I prefer a clean [censored] personally.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

I kind of expected that. I'd ask someone in the gym, but I can't say [censored]
without someone snickering.

Quoted message said:

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote >

Quoted message said:

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote
> What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?
>
Do you mean _just_ the clean, as opposed to the clean and jerk?
[snip
I guess I'm curious about what you mean about "advantage" - in what
way?

Well, I do power cleans to help with sprints and jumps. I'm taking about
power snatches and power cleans, not the pure olympic lifts. I'm using

them

Quoted message said:

for explosiveness in sport training, not body building

I didn't think you were BBing with Oly lifts, I was just trying to think
of
an example for "advantage".

For clarity, when you say "power" clean or [censored], do you pull from a hang
or from the floor?

I would think for explosiveness that pulling from the floor would be more
effective than from a hang. And if you're pulling from the floor and not
intending to squat under the bar, then a clean would be more effective and
less likely to wrack your shoulders.

From just a hang, the clean's advantage is probably that you can pull more
weight, but conversely, I think you'd use less core power to get the bar
up
and stabilized in the clean, and a strong core can help you in sprints and
jumps, too. Hobbes probably has better input on this.

You probably just need to do both :-)

What's your sprinting and jumping sport?

Selene

I do the cleans and snatches from the floor. It feels like it works more.
I'm doing them to get ready for the armed services actually. I do sprints
and chins as well as a powerlifting style weight workout, but want to be
ready for obstacle course and having good, functional strength I can use
instead of looking like a body builder.

Kevin J. Coolidge said:

What are the advantages of the [censored] over the clean?

Given a choice, I'd opt for the clean [censored]...have your cake and eat it
too...I should stop now...really...sleepy time...

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"Kevin J. Coolidge" <[email hidden]> wrote >

Quoted message said:

Well, I do power cleans to help with sprints and jumps. I'm taking

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

power snatches and power cleans, not the pure olympic lifts.

For clarity, when you say "power" clean or [censored], do you pull from a

hang

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or from the floor?

I do the cleans and snatches from the floor. It feels like it works more.
I'm doing them to get ready for the armed services actually. I do sprints
and chins as well as a powerlifting style weight workout, but want to be
ready for obstacle course and having good, functional strength I can use
instead of looking like a body builder.

You pull a [censored] from the floor without a squat? Wow, you must have hella
flexible and strong shoulders.

Since you're working this hard, why aren't you going the whole nine yards
for these lifts and putting the squat under into them? I mean, if you're
looking for a huge functional strength thing, wouldn't having some explosive
squats in with your pulls help?

I could see elminating the jerk, since it's a bit of an add-on, but the rise
from deep with the bar in the [censored] or clean position has got to come under
the heading of "works more."

JM2C
Selene

PS - if you're interested in a good, explosive, hard exercise for the abs,
let me know; I just learned one that is rocking my world.

Selene said:

PS - if you're interested in a good, explosive, hard exercise for the abs,
let me know; I just learned one that is rocking my world.

Well what is it, I want to know?

Yes OP, you should squat under, or split under all snatches, cleans, and
jerks. It develops quickness, flexibility and balance, all things you
need for sports. If you are just working the explosion then you are
only getting 1/4 of the benifit.

From watching people power clean in my gym, they don't catch the bar
high on thier shoulders, and it looks like thier wrists take some
punishment when they catch the bar. Also, I may be wrong here, but you
decellerate the bar by squatting under it, slowing its desent, and
stopping in the full squat. In the power variety, you only slow the bar
by gouing into a very partial squat. IMO this puts a lot of (for lack
of a better word) shock on your back, and if not catching the bar high
(which is hard to do in a power clean) then shock to your wrists too.

I squat way under my cleans, and I am just learning to [censored] so I guess
it probably looks like a power [censored] to overhead squat. I have been
training [censored] balance too. Anyone else have problems returning the
bar to thier shoulders safely for reps on the [censored] balance? I have
been doing it by bending my knees down into a partial squat when the bar
his my shoulders as I lower /drop the bar under some control from
overhead to my shoulders.

--Falooley

"Bob Falooley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Selene said:

PS - if you're interested in a good, explosive, hard exercise for the

abs,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

let me know; I just learned one that is rocking my world.

Well what is it, I want to know?

Yes OP, you should squat under, or split under all snatches, cleans, and
jerks. It develops quickness, flexibility and balance, all things you
need for sports. If you are just working the explosion then you are
only getting 1/4 of the benifit.

I squat way under my cleans, and I am just learning to [censored] so I guess
it probably looks like a power [censored] to overhead squat. I have been
training [censored] balance too. Anyone else have problems returning the
bar to thier shoulders safely for reps on the [censored] balance? I have
been doing it by bending my knees down into a partial squat when the bar
hits my shoulders as I lower /drop the bar under some control from
overhead to my shoulders.

I'm not sure what you mean by "[censored] balance" - do you mean just an
overhead press and hold, and then drop to shoulders and repeat? Are you in
the bottom of the squat in this position?

Or are you holding the top of the [censored] a little longer? So you're
standing there with the bar overhead in a pause? From there, I drop the bar
to my thighs before going to the floor, not to my shoulders.

I guess it depends what you mean by [censored] balance. Explain please :-)

As for the ab exercise, this may take some explaining (Lucy, you got some
'splainin' to do!)

If I were to make up a name for it, I'd call it the twisting wood-chopper or
something like that. Here's what I do:

Find a nice sturdy corner, not drywall - or figure out a way to protect the
drywall. My gym has several brick walls with exposed iron pipe, so these
'tough' corners are pretty easy to come by.

Take a regular 20 kg bar and prop one end in the corner. Hold onto the
other end with both hands and the elbows silghtly bent, end of bar about
shoulder height (recall I'm kind of runty, so this might be a bit different
for a taller person). Once you figure out the move, you'll probably want to
put some weight on the end of the bar you are holding in the air.

So you're making a triangle with the floor and you being at right angles and
the bar being the hypotenuse (to go all mathematical on you).

Then, twist the hips, torso, and importantly, the feet to one side as you
chop down with the bar toward your knee/thigh. Keep the back and abs taut,
butt back, knees bent. This position is like a squished triangle, where you
are the squished part. (I don't think I can ascii art this - photos might
help).

Then, rise up, straightening the legs, back, and arms as you rotate to the
other side, swinging the bar across, twisting the hips, torso AND toes, to
chop down on the other side. Bend elbows and knees as you bring the bar
toward your knee.

Repeat process back to other side.

So in plan view, the bar waves back and forth on either side of you body.
In side view, the bar moves up and down as you rise through the middle, and
then chop/crouch on the sides.

Sitting here typing and trying out the moves, it's almost like paddling a
canoe on alternating sides, but your are a) standing, and b) twist the hips
and feet, in addition to the torso.

Does that make sense? I feel this in my lats, abs, and hams, but especially
the obliques. If anyone else has see this on the web, pipe up, because I'd
love a video or photo reference for it.

Selene
still wondering what a [censored] balance is

"Selene" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Bob Falooley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Selene said:

PS - if you're interested in a good, explosive, hard exercise for the
abs, let me know; I just learned one that is rocking my world.

Well what is it, I want to know?

Yes OP, you should squat under, or split under all snatches, cleans,
and jerks. It develops quickness, flexibility and balance, all things
you need for sports. If you are just working the explosion then you
are only getting 1/4 of the benifit.

I squat way under my cleans, and I am just learning to [censored] so I
guess it probably looks like a power [censored] to overhead squat. I have
been training [censored] balance too. Anyone else have problems returning
the bar to thier shoulders safely for reps on the [censored] balance? I
have been doing it by bending my knees down into a partial squat when
the bar hits my shoulders as I lower /drop the bar under some control
from overhead to my shoulders.

That's what I do. Generally feels okay. Helps that I'm to chicken to
[censored] balance with much weight on the bar. (I'm also still learning.)

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "[censored] balance" - do you mean just an
overhead press and hold, and then drop to shoulders and repeat? Are you
in the bottom of the squat in this position?

Or are you holding the top of the [censored] a little longer? So you're
standing there with the bar overhead in a pause? From there, I drop the
bar to my thighs before going to the floor, not to my shoulders.

I guess it depends what you mean by [censored] balance. Explain please :-)

Bob can say what he's doing, but the movement I know is to put the bar
across the shoulders, and then drop so you end in a squat with the bar at
arm's length overhead. You start with a push so the bar doesn't follow
you.

Good for learning to get into the low position of the [censored].

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.