dishless rear wheel

"gerrit van wijk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you wanted a dishless (=eqaul lenght spokes?) rear 9 speed 135mm wide wheel, how many mm would
the rear triangle need to be offcentre? (a

massive

Quoted message said:

12mm?) I guess you cannot go dishless with just an offset rim?

I just built an offset rim (Velocity Aerohead OC - Campag 10v 130mm). The offset doesn't make a
great deal of difference. There just isn't enough rim width to offset the holes by very far. I use
2x left, 3x right and this makes my RH spokes longer -but tension difference and dish are still
extreme. Mark Lee

gerrit van wijk said:

If you wanted a dishless (=eqaul lenght spokes?) rear 9 speed 135mm wide wheel, how many mm would
the rear triangle need to be offcentre? (a massive 12mm?)

It depends on the hub. Wheel dish is just to compensate for how asymmetrical the hub flanges are, so
the placement of the left side flange makes the difference between a wheel that requires lots of
dish and one that doesn't. A hub like the Ritchey Zero System MTB hub, with the left flange pulled
in as much as feasible, can attain zero dish with the use of an asymmetrically drilled rim.

A Shimano hub cannot be built dishless this way; there is too much flange offset to compensate at
the rim, even if you lace the spokes all from the right side of the flange.

Chalo Colina

mark-<< I just built an offset rim (Velocity Aerohead OC - Campag 10v 130mm). The offset doesn't
make a great deal of difference. There just isn't enough rim width to offset the holes by very far.
I use 2x left, 3x right and this makes my RH spokes longer -but tension difference and dish are
still extreme. >><BR><BR>

We build a lot of these rims(Velocity OCR) and notice that the left side tension is much higher than
on non-OCR rims...about twice the tension BUT even on a non OCR rim, I wouldn't say the dish or
tension difference is 'extreme'...Wheels with Campagnolo and non OCR rims are still reliable.

2x left won't make any difference in tension, BTW, spoke length differences between 2x and 3x has
little to do with tension.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Chump-<< A hub like the Ritchey Zero System MTB hub, with the left flange pulled in as much as
feasible, can attain zero dish with the use of an asymmetrically drilled rim. >><BR><BR>

Well, it's close to having equal tension but the left/right side tensions are not equal. Only on a
track hub like the Suzue have I seen equal tension, where the flanges were the same distance center
to flange on both sides.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel. I have a Shimano XT
rear hub, a Wheels Manufacturing 10x1x158mm axle, and a bunch of axle spacers. I'll just use that
long axle and 10 or 12mm of extra spacers on the left side (whatever it takes) to end up with a hub
with the distance from the flange to the locknut the same on both sides, have that hub built into a
wheel, and then have a frame built (or spread) to accommodate the wheel.

Bob Taylor

"gerrit van wijk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

If you wanted a dishless (=eqaul lenght spokes?) rear 9 speed 135mm wide wheel, how many mm would
the rear triangle need to be offcentre? (a massive 12mm?) I guess you cannot go dishless with just
an offset rim?

Mark Lee said:

I just built an offset rim (Velocity Aerohead OC - Campag 10v 130mm). The offset doesn't make a
great deal of difference. There just isn't enough rim width to offset the holes by very far. I use
2x left, 3x right and this makes my RH spokes longer -but tension difference and dish are still
extreme. Mark Lee

In my limited experience, I've found that I need to get more than 100 Kgf on the drive side of a
Velocity Aerohead in order to get enough tension on the non drive side. The wheels are very stable
and the rims can take the tension.

(Bob Taylor) said:

I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel. I have a Shimano
XT rear hub, a Wheels Manufacturing 10x1x158mm axle, and a bunch of axle spacers. I'll just use
that long axle and 10 or 12mm of extra spacers on the left side (whatever it takes) to end up with
a hub with the distance from the flange to the locknut the same on both sides, have that hub built
into a wheel, and then have a frame built (or spread) to accommodate the wheel.

I think you are going to need about 20+ mm of spacers and a longer axel.

You can go dishless with seven speed or less Sh. freehubs, simply by moving a washer from one side
of the axle to the other. Unfortunatly, this wonderfully simple modification is just one more
fatality of the "cog wars".

geocities.commac6.htmlOpen ↗

May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel. I have a Shimano
XT rear hub, a Wheels Manufacturing 10x1x158mm axle, and a bunch of axle spacers. I'll just use
that long axle and 10 or 12mm of extra spacers on the left side (whatever it takes) to end up with
a hub with the distance from the flange to the locknut the same on both sides, have that hub built
into a wheel, and then have a frame built (or spread) to accommodate the wheel.

Bob Taylor

Won't you have a truly awful chainline if you do that?

"Mark Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"gerrit van wijk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you wanted a dishless (=eqaul lenght spokes?) rear 9 speed 135mm wide wheel, how many mm
would the rear triangle need to be offcentre? (a

massive

Quoted message said:

12mm?) I guess you cannot go dishless with just an offset rim?

I just built an offset rim (Velocity Aerohead OC - Campag 10v 130mm). The offset doesn't make a
great deal of difference. There just isn't enough rim width to offset the holes by very far. I use
2x left, 3x right and this makes my RH spokes longer -but tension difference and dish are still
extreme. Mark Lee

Doesn't the 2 cross left side pattern make the bracing angle greater than that for 3 cross? Here's
my thinking: the center-to-flange distance is the same, but the shorter spokes must mean the angle
is greater, right?

So if the bracing angle is greater, then the spoke tension is less.

Paul Kopit <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Bob Taylor) said:

I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel. I have a Shimano
XT rear hub, a Wheels Manufacturing 10x1x158mm axle, and a bunch of axle spacers. I'll just use
that long axle and 10 or 12mm of extra spacers on the left side (whatever it takes) to end up
with a hub with the distance from the flange to the locknut the same on both sides, have that hub
built into a wheel, and then have a frame built (or spread) to accommodate the wheel.

I think you are going to need about 20+ mm of spacers and a longer axel.

I just went out to my shop and measured the hub (8/9 speed XT paralax type). The distance from the
outside of the flange to the outside face of the locknut is 30mm on the left side and 46mm on the
right side with the hub in it's original 135mm OLN configuration. That means I'll have to add 16 mm
worth of spacers to the left side for an OLN of 151mm. With the 158mm axle that will leave an
adequate 3.5mm worth of axle sticking out on each side. If I decide that 7 cogs are enough I have an
older 7 speed XT hub which would have less difference between the left and right sides (I didn't
measure that hub but it should be about 5mm less, the thickness of one cog and spacer). Then I
should need only 11mm worthof spacers and with the resulting 146mm OLN I might have to shorten the
axle a bit (or use the 152mm axle that I have).

As far as the chainline is concerned won't the cluster sit only 8mm (or 5.5mm in the case of the 7
speed hub) further out than it would without my alteration? Remember this will be a touring bike
with 18 inch chainstays. Santana tandems work with 160mm OLN rear hubs don't they? If necessary I
could use a wider BB to eliminate the change in the chainline, going from 110 to 118mm (or 126mm if
I wanted to move both crankarms out the same amount) or from 110 to 115.5mm (or 121mm) in the case
of the 7 speed hub. Would the increase in the much discussed "Q Factor" matter? It certainly
wouldn't bother me. Remember, the total amount is at the very most a bit less than 2/3 of an inch
and most likely less than that.

In my original post I neglected to mention that in addition to the hub, the 158mm axle, and the
spacers, I also have an extra long skewer so I've got that problem in hand.

No, I think it'll work fine for my application.

Bob Taylor

Bob-<< I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel. I have a
Shimano XT rear hub, a Wheels Manufacturing 10x1x158mm axle, and a bunch of axle spacers. I'll just
use that long axle and 10 or 12mm of extra spacers on the left side (whatever it takes) to end up
with a hub with the distance from the flange to the locknut the same on both sides, have that hub
built into a wheel, and then have a frame built (or spread) to accommodate the wheel. >><BR><BR>

You are going to have to spread the frameset a lot, I think and you may have chainline,
chainstay/ring interference problems.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"😉 wrote:

From

Quoted message said:

geocities.commac6.htmlOpen ↗ :

" What this does is move the entire wheel over to the right by 1 " millimeter. That means you have
to move the rim 1 millimeter to " the left to recenter it. This, of course, means your wheel will "
have 1mm less dish. doesn't sound like a lot, does it? But it is " less. In fact, you can subtract
1 millimeter from the longer " spoke, and add that millimeter to the length of the shorter " spoke.
If you have a six or seven speed freehub, since there is " only two millimeters difference between
the left and right side " spokes, BOTH sides of the wheel will now be able two use the " same
length spoke.

Whoa, you need to bone up on your Pythagorean Theorem. The change in dish you describe would make no
more than 0.15mm difference in spoke length in the most extreme case; on the drive side the
difference could be less than half that.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

As far as the chainline is concerned won't the cluster sit only 8mm (or 5.5mm in the case of the 7
speed hub) further out than it would without my alteration? Remember this will be a touring bike
with 18 inch chainstays. Santana tandems work with 160mm OLN rear hubs don't they? If necessary I
could use a wider BB to eliminate the change in the chainline, going from 110 to 118mm (or 126mm
if I wanted to move both crankarms out the same amount) or from 110 to 115.5mm (or 121mm) in the
case of the 7 speed hub. Would the increase in the much discussed "Q Factor" matter? It certainly
wouldn't bother me. Remember, the total amount is at the very most a bit less than 2/3 of an inch
and most likely less than that.

Quoted message said:

Bob Taylor

The Q factor (tread) difference may well make no difference to you, but your comment about Santanas
working fine at 160 mm OLN is a little misleading.

Yes they do work, but the chainline is moved right sufficiently that a normally-mounted front
derailleur will not shift properly. Santana has fabricated a part to move the FD outwards to
maintain a useful chainline.

If building a dishless wheel is that important to you, you might consider an internally geared hub.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Bob,I have been planning to someday build a touring bike with a dishless rear wheel

I own a bicycle frame that was built for a dishless rear wheel. It is a MITTENDORF and comes from a
small custom shop in Germany. Mr. Mittendorf has a patent for making rear dropouts for this purpose.
You might want to contact him at:http://www.hami-mittendorf.de/

Jim Toth