Repost: calorie question

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 30 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

There are 2 ways to ensure that glycogen stores will last throughout the
marathon. One way is to train the body to store a large amount of
glycogen. The other way is to train your body to conserve glycogen by
using as much fat for fuel as possible at marathon pace. Both of these
are stimulated by pure endurance training. Mainly runs of 90 minutes or
longer and total training volume (two-a-days and/or high weekly mileage).

If you've done this type of training, I don't think you need to take
large quantities of calories for a 26-miler. I've done well on simply
preparing for my long runs by eating a fairly cabo-rich meal the night
before, during the long run drinking the sports drink that will be served
at the race, plus S!caps. Then do the same for the actual marathon.

Phil M.

--
Don't quit when the hill is steepest,
For your goal is almost nigh;
Don't quit, for you're not a failure
UNTIL YOU FAIL TO TRY."

--Jill Wolf

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
[email hidden] of 30 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

There are 2 ways to ensure that glycogen stores will last throughout the
marathon. One way is to train the body to store a large amount of
glycogen. The other way is to train your body to conserve glycogen by
using as much fat for fuel as possible at marathon pace. Both of these
are stimulated by pure endurance training. Mainly runs of 90 minutes or
longer and total training volume (two-a-days and/or high weekly mileage).

If you've done this type of training, I don't think you need to take
large quantities of calories for a 26-miler. I've done well on simply
preparing for my long runs by eating a fairly cabo-rich meal the night
before, during the long run drinking the sports drink that will be served
at the race, plus S!caps. Then do the same for the actual marathon.

Phil M.

--
Don't quit when the hill is steepest,
For your goal is almost nigh;
Don't quit, for you're not a failure
UNTIL YOU FAIL TO TRY."

--Jill Wolf

frank-in-toronto said:

repost:
For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

thanks...thehick

I'm not a marathoner, but I do bike rides up to 8 hours. I also have
diabetes, so I plan nutrition carefully. But the key factor is probably
your individual stomach. What can you eat without getting sick? And it
probably changes radically depending on what exertion level you are at.
I think a lot of people couldn't handle 300 calories an hour.

What seems to work for me is to eat carbs the first two hours, then high
fat (eg. cheese) the next couple of hours (because as my body gets
stressed it releases glucose from the liver faster than I use it), then
carbs again when my blood sugar begins to go low. But I have a cast
iron stomach and my body is trained to burn fat, and I'm probably only
eating about 150-200 calories an hour.

There are useful looking pages at:
http://www.nyrrc.org/nyrrc/mar01/training/septip.html
http://www.runningnetwork.com/trainingtips/eatingenduranceFeb05.html

My body seems to handle calorie deficit ok, but I'm not skinny. I've
heard that in something like the Tour de France the athletes are burning
more calories than their bodies are able to digest in a 24 hour period.

Pam

frank-in-toronto said:

repost:
For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

thanks...thehick

I'm not a marathoner, but I do bike rides up to 8 hours. I also have
diabetes, so I plan nutrition carefully. But the key factor is probably
your individual stomach. What can you eat without getting sick? And it
probably changes radically depending on what exertion level you are at.
I think a lot of people couldn't handle 300 calories an hour.

What seems to work for me is to eat carbs the first two hours, then high
fat (eg. cheese) the next couple of hours (because as my body gets
stressed it releases glucose from the liver faster than I use it), then
carbs again when my blood sugar begins to go low. But I have a cast
iron stomach and my body is trained to burn fat, and I'm probably only
eating about 150-200 calories an hour.

There are useful looking pages at:
http://www.nyrrc.org/nyrrc/mar01/training/septip.html
http://www.runningnetwork.com/trainingtips/eatingenduranceFeb05.html

My body seems to handle calorie deficit ok, but I'm not skinny. I've
heard that in something like the Tour de France the athletes are burning
more calories than their bodies are able to digest in a 24 hour period.

Pam

frank-in-toronto said:

Forgive me >

One time, but do it again and punishment will be swift and final.

frank-in-toronto said:

Forgive me >

One time, but do it again and punishment will be swift and final.

frank-in-toronto said:

repost:
For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

thanks...thehick

Frank: There are other issues at work. It has been mentioned that
digestion becomes an issue for many of us on very long runs (your blood
supply tends toward your leg muscles, which makes digestion difficult).
Also, I don't think you can view your glycogen stores as being just
like a fuel tank. With your car, you can run full-throtle until the
tank is empty. I believe (and it feels like) on a long run, as your
stored glycogen begins to dissipate, it gets harder and harder to go.
Therefore, even though you may have some throretical balance of
glycogen on board, you may feel entirely wiped out.

There is only one way to find out what will work and that is to
experiment with your body. Run long and see what works.

Good luck. And Let us know what happens.

Brian Jones

frank-in-toronto said:

repost:
For the marathon distance, I proposed my theory that
since we should have enough glucose in us for about
20 miles, all we need to do is add sufficient to complete
the 6 that are left over. Let's say 18 and 8 to give
a comfort zone. So, at about 150 cal/mile, we need
to shove back 8 times 150 equals about 1000 cal. plus.

So the plan is to eat early and often. Splitting the intake
between 4 or so tasty gels, some ju-jubes, some cookies
and adding some liquid carbs too.

thanks...thehick

Frank: There are other issues at work. It has been mentioned that
digestion becomes an issue for many of us on very long runs (your blood
supply tends toward your leg muscles, which makes digestion difficult).
Also, I don't think you can view your glycogen stores as being just
like a fuel tank. With your car, you can run full-throtle until the
tank is empty. I believe (and it feels like) on a long run, as your
stored glycogen begins to dissipate, it gets harder and harder to go.
Therefore, even though you may have some throretical balance of
glycogen on board, you may feel entirely wiped out.

There is only one way to find out what will work and that is to
experiment with your body. Run long and see what works.

Good luck. And Let us know what happens.

Brian Jones

Quoted message said:

...
There is only one way to find out what will work and that is to
experiment with your body. Run long and see what works.

Good luck. And Let us know what happens.

oh, this is what I used last year in my first and
only so far marathon. my training was not
sufficient and i suffered (boy did i) from
kilometer 17 with severe ITB in my left knee.
So I walked when i had to and ran when i could.
Took me 5 hours. I had lots of time to eat all
the snacks I brought in my waist-pouch. digestion
was fine. the short ultra i'll be doing this year will
give me even more time to eat. actually, i'm
looking forward to that part. i love to eat.

this year i'm hoping to be faster, because it seems
that i've licked my ITB problem, so perhaps
digesting may crop up as a problem. we'll see.
i'm only eating plain sugar basically, so i don't
expect there to be any issues. time will tell.

i ask these questions because we all need somewhere
to start. my long runs will give me more info.
thanks to all for helping with some of my ideas and concerns.
....thehick

Quoted message said:

...
There is only one way to find out what will work and that is to
experiment with your body. Run long and see what works.

Good luck. And Let us know what happens.

oh, this is what I used last year in my first and
only so far marathon. my training was not
sufficient and i suffered (boy did i) from
kilometer 17 with severe ITB in my left knee.
So I walked when i had to and ran when i could.
Took me 5 hours. I had lots of time to eat all
the snacks I brought in my waist-pouch. digestion
was fine. the short ultra i'll be doing this year will
give me even more time to eat. actually, i'm
looking forward to that part. i love to eat.

this year i'm hoping to be faster, because it seems
that i've licked my ITB problem, so perhaps
digesting may crop up as a problem. we'll see.
i'm only eating plain sugar basically, so i don't
expect there to be any issues. time will tell.

i ask these questions because we all need somewhere
to start. my long runs will give me more info.
thanks to all for helping with some of my ideas and concerns.
....thehick

The ultra people are generally able to switch to "fat burning" fairly
smoothly.
This takes practice. Dont confuse this the "fat burning" advise in
weight loss
program which I think is mostly B.S.

Ironnically I find longer runs easier when I have been trying to lose
weight ands eat less. My body has gotten used to swithing into fat
burning sooner and pssed beyond the wall problem.

Something outside of my experience was the 60 Minutes piece on ultra
runners.
The one notorious guy cell phones in a pizza order about 20 minutes
before he
reaches a good rondevous spot or pizzeria. Pizza is a very dense
calorie food
and fuels running quickly. Its also takes a resources to digest. This
guy has trained
his body to run and digest heavy food at the same time. Though Id
recommend easier
todigest foods like gels.