I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride and was about to order a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and what we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about as far forward as road posts go), my knee was 1-2 cm behind the pedal spindle. When we checked my current ride (Tommasini 57 c-c with 56 c-c top tube), my knee was exactly over the spindle (Koobi seat was all the way forward on Amer Classic post). This was a rude awakening, since it was the first time I've encountered such fit problems although evidently my femur must be somewhat short (?).
I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come up against setback issues such as this. The Calfee custom frame option would carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna). Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry work for me?
"RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride and was about to
order
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a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and what we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about as far forward as road posts go), my knee was 1-2
Do any other major frame builders believe Bontrager's "myth of KOPS" argument? He makes some good points, but I am no expert and am suspicious that KOPS is still widely recommended and no other popular framebuilders are overtly agreeing with Bontrager.
I agree as an absolute rule it is irrelevant, but I have found purely from trial and error (on my Tommasini) that my preferred position is indeed with my knee directly over the pedal axle. Perhaps I didn't make this clear in my original posting.
Roy
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"RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time
I
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride and was about to
order
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a frame. I asked for them to check the saddle fore/aft adjustment and
what
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we found was that the Luna's geometry had too much setback for me - even with the saddle (Fizik Pave) all the way forward on a Thomson seatpost (whose clamps are about as far forward as road posts go), my knee was
One question I have is Does it matter? Your OP states: " I took a test ride on a 56cm Calfee Luna Pro yesterday, and by the time I returned to the shop 20 miles later I loved the ride". From that it appears your LBS did an excellent job of fitting you despite the fact that your position was different from your previous bike or that your knee was over the pedal. Since it seems like you like the Calfee; you "love the ride", and despite not having any "setback", it FITS YOU, forget the formulas and get it. Remember, if the bike doesn't fit, you won't ride. Despite what you formerly believe, the bike does fit, SO RIDE!....
"RoyG" <royg at nospam> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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"Jim Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come
up
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against setback issues such as this. The Calfee custom frame option
would
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carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna). Is there some
fitting
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possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame
geometry
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work for me?
Thanks, Roy
Yep, Doug has it right, I'd try some of the triathlon type seat posts.
from www.lhthomson.com :
Q - How far does the set back seatpost set back? A - The 10° set back angle gives about 5/8 inch or 16mm of set back. ______________________________________________________________ Q - Can a setback seatpost be turned around and used as a "set forward" seatpost? A - Yes, the setback seatpost can be used as a set forward seatpost. No modifications are necessary. The forward direction or set forward works well for triathalon bikes.
I'd appreciate hearing any comments about how unusual it it to come up against setback issues such as this. The Calfee custom frame option would carry a hefty premium ($2400 Tetra vs. $1300 Luna). Is there some fitting possibility I haven't thought of that might make the Luna frame geometry work for me?
I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd have to guess it's pretty darn slack.
And as others have said, there's no law that says you MUST ride with your KOPS, but that's where most people do end up - or slightly behind.
If you do consider the "forward seat post fix", remember that the cockpit will be shortened accordingly.
I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd have to guess it's pretty darn slack.
I just looked it up. It's a middle-of-the-road 73 degrees. The bike that he owns must have a pretty steep seat angle (74?) and he already has his seat set as forward as possible on an American Classic post. Just from pictures that I have seen, I think that the American Classic post probably allows a much more forward position than most "standard" posts, and probably as much as the Thomson straight post because it has such a small upper clamp block. (Suggestion to RoyG when looking for a seatpost: measure the distance from the rear of the upper clamp to the center-line of the post.) The OP must really have a short femurs. One degree of seat angle should gain him about 1.3 cm of reach.
Roy, are you pretty certain that the position isn't good on the Calfee? Others have pointed out that you find that it "rides great". That's what matters - the measurements don't really matter if you are in a comfortable position. It is possible that the knee over spindle position works on your current bike because it gives you the reach that you need, assuming that you didn't try a bunch of different stems when you were doing your trial and error positioning experiments. Some people actually prefer the knee behind the spindle a bit, so that's why I brought that up... maybe there is a range that can be considered "optimal" for you.
(sorry about the e-mail reply, Mark. I hit the wrong button)
Thanks very much for all the responses. I actually felt a little bit of knee strain later that day after the test ride, so I don't think it was set up optimally. Before the test ride, the shop had taken my current bike and came back a little later and told me that they had matched the setup and that's why I didn't check the seat alignment till after I had gotten back.
Appreciate the comments on seatposts. I think the 10 degree set forward offered by the Thomson tri post would afford a range of adjustment that would work, whether KOPS or a cm or two behind.
I'm curious about how relatively short my femur is, and will look for some guidelines on the net about femure/tibia ratios, etc.
I wonder what the seat tube angle on the Luna is - if you've never had this problem before, I'd have to guess it's pretty darn slack.
I just looked it up. It's a middle-of-the-road 73 degrees. The bike that he owns must have a pretty steep seat angle (74?) and he already has his seat set as forward as possible on an American Classic post. Just from pictures that I have seen, I think that the American Classic post probably allows a much more forward position than most "standard" posts, and probably as much as the Thomson straight post because it has such a small upper clamp block.
That makes sense - I run an AC on my own bike, and you CAN set the post farther forward than you can on most non setback posts - basically you can place the rear bend in the saddle rail less than a cm from the seatpost centerline. I don't know why more seatpost manufacturers don't use the "minimalist" upper clamp - it really only has to prevent the saddle from flying off the bike - it bears no weight.
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(sorry about the e-mail reply, Mark. I hit the wrong button)
That makes sense - I run an AC on my own bike, and you CAN set the post farther forward than you can on most non setback posts - basically you can place the rear bend in the saddle rail less than a cm from the seatpost centerline. I don't know why more seatpost manufacturers don't use the "minimalist" upper clamp - it really only has to prevent the saddle from flying off the bike - it bears no weight.
From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves if a saddle/seatpost's respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the seatpost, and not the seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on bumps). This says to me that there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment, which in a modern style seatpost at least partly translates into forces on the upper part of the clamp.
From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves if a saddle/seatpost's respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the seatpost, and not the seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on bumps). This says to me that there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment, which in a modern style seatpost at least partly translates into forces on the upper part of the clamp.
I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both road and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)
"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
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Jasper Janssen said:
From my experience with classic-style posts, the first thing that moves
if
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a saddle/seatpost's respective bolts aren't quite fastened is the saddle moving around the seatpost, and not the seatpost shoving itself into the frame (that's the second one, going on bumps). This says to me that there is significant torque on the saddle/seatpost attachment, which in a
modern
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style seatpost at least partly translates into forces on the upper part
of
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the clamp.
I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both road and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)
One thing I've noticed going from an AC post to one with a longer top clamp is how much firmer the saddle feels. I found that out when I recently borrowed a bike to try out and put my own seat on it. Seems the small top clamp on my AC allows the Ti rails to flex upward a good bit more, letting the seat sag more in the middle. It also lets the seat rock a little more when you're at either end. It'll depend on how stiff your saddle & rails are to begin with, but the difference was surprisingly noticeable on mine.
I guess - but I've never had any problems with mine (and I've got a LOT of miles on them, both road and MTB). Then again, I'm known for tightening things "at least enough"... ;-)
Saddlepost bolts should be tightened "until a quarter stroke before they break", as my LBS guy recently assured me again. If you're a heavy rider like me, that's often barely or not enough, especially if the post/clamp interface is greased.
I look at KOPS another way. I see it as something that my body tends to find on it's own with enough pedaling. Maybe somebody else's bod will find "KOPS-minus-1-inch" or yet another persons bod will find "KOPS-plus-a-half-inch"...but the idea is that there *is* a position that your body will put itself into most of the time.
Given that, your butt winds up *some*where...and wants to stay there...and that "where" makes setback important because there's so little fore-aft saddle adjustment. ----------------------- PeteCresswell
Originally posted by Royg (posted from Google at work)
Thanks very much for all the responses. I actually felt a little bit of knee strain later that day after the test ride, so I don't think it was set up optimally. Before the test ride, the shop had taken my current bike and came back a little later and told me that they had matched the setup and that's why I didn't check the seat alignment till after I had gotten back.
Appreciate the comments on seatposts. I think the 10 degree set forward offered by the Thomson tri post would afford a range of adjustment that would work, whether KOPS or a cm or two behind.
I'm curious about how relatively short my femur is, and will look for some guidelines on the net about femure/tibia ratios, etc.
Sorry about the blank post. I have a question for the OP. Why don't you look for a bike that fits better?
It seems like you're trying to shoehorn yourself onto this bike, and there must be geometries out there that are more suitable to your body type since you state that your current ride fits you well. A Calfee is not an inexpensive ride. I ran into a guy who was really into Calfee bikes and the way they fit. He had a whole spiel about the extra setback that Calfee uses and how it's more traditional Italian-style, etc. My point is this: you might have a short femur, but you're emphasizing this by buying a bike with greater setback geometry.
