Amsterdam cyclists

I am going in July and it looks like I'll be able to cope then. When I went 3 years ago, I noticed a lack of serious cyclists in Holland generally, and saw some great sites - a mother with two kids, 33 buckets and spades and a windbreak on one bike, and not a helmet in site.

"Adrian Boliston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have just visited Amsterdam for the first time, and of course the first
thing I noticed was the sheer *mass* of cyclists!

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect

to

Quoted message said:

cycling?

Yes

Quoted message said:

I guess there must be a big environmental advantage,

Yes -- and less congestion

Quoted message said:

but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable

in

Quoted message said:

it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes,

They are there -- but ...

Quoted message said:

just those heavy things they all seem to use.

Anything else gets nicked by the druggies. These clunckers get nicked by
the druggies -- but the druggies sell them back to you for relatively
little.

So you hope your bike is not nicked by the druggies. If it is you buy
another one from the druggies -- hence perpetuating the trade -- but its
cheap and not too likely to be nicked.

The free market in perfect harmony.

T

Quoted message said:

http://www.boliston.co.uk/amsterdam/

PS -- nice pics

PPS -- equal opportunities statement. This is not to imply that all bike
thieves are druggies or that all druggies nick bikes.

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Adrian
Boliston <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

That's cycling as serious utility transport rather than as a sport or
enthusiast pursuit on it's own.

In car terms, imagine if the only drivers over here were either
enthusiasts or sportspeople - you'd see lots of MGs, Land Rovers,
Mercedes and Rolls-Royces, but not a lot of Ford Fiestas.

Over there, you see far more of the bike equivalent of the Fiesta. If
our govt pursued a serious pro-cycling transport strategy, that's what
you'd see here too.

--
- Pyromancer Stormshadow.
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anything else gets nicked by the druggies. These clunckers get nicked by
the druggies -- but the druggies sell them back to you for relatively
little.

So you hope your bike is not nicked by the druggies. If it is you buy
another one from the druggies -- hence perpetuating the trade -- but its
cheap and not too likely to be nicked.

ISTR reading something by someone else visiting a Dutch friend in Holland -
they came back to find someone had 'borrowed' the front wheel off his
friend's bike so, unperturbed, he took one off another bike parked nearby
and on they went... another advantage, perhaps, of all riding similar
machines???

Personally, though, I'd hate having to ride round on one of those clunky
things. Give me our system any day!

Rich

Adrian Boliston wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

http://www.boliston.co.uk/amsterdam/

I have to say that cycling in Amsterdam is an experience. One which I
didnt enjoy. I guess you get used to it after a while, but confusing
trafffic signs, 'wrong' side of road and riding against the traffic made
it all a bit stressful.

Mind you, its better than competing with a Tuna for road space.

Chris Armstrong said:

a mother with two kids, 33
buckets and spades and a windbreak on one bike, and not a helmet in
site.

Holland: Lowest helmet wearing rate in cyclists (0.1%), lowest death
rate in cyclists.

Tony

Adrian Boliston said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

Its nice to see so many people cycling and the cars having to defer to
them. However if you want to commute fast forget it. The ultimate was
visiting China in the early 80's as it was just opening up. Cycling
there was packed. Trying to cycle at anything other than the leisurely
speed was like trying to sprint along Oxford Street on a Saturday before
Christmas. So nice to see them but its not utopia.

Tony

Adrian Boliston said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

I'm just back from a trip to Holland. Cycling is just a way of getting
from A rto B in Holland - why should it be more? I saw one cyclist in
lycra and helmet all week. Those "heavy things" are getting quite advanced
these days. See:

http://www.gazelle.nl/

and

http://www.sparta.nl/nl/
--
Best Regards
Richard

"Richard Lucas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm just back from a trip to Holland. Cycling is just a way of getting
from A rto B in Holland - why should it be more?

Why is for fun. But I also cycle as a way from getting from A to B, and
need to do it rather more quickly than I could on a roadster!

Quoted message said:

I saw one cyclist in
lycra and helmet all week. Those "heavy things" are getting quite
advanced
these days. See:

http://www.gazelle.nl/

and

http://www.sparta.nl/nl/

Think I'll pass, thanks..

Rich

Adrian Boliston said:

Over there it's like everyone is just on one of those heavy "sit up & beg"
bikes, usually with flat tyres, and crossing roads can be quite hazardous as
the cyclists don't always go the same direction as the motor traffic!

Quoted message said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

In Amsterdam (even more than the rest of the NL) there is a separation
between 'bike as transport' and 'bike as sport'. Most of the 18 years I
lived there I did both, and I had separate bikes for both. A fast tourer
with drop bars, toe clips and skinny tires just isn't much fun in the city
with lots of stopping and starting and lots of potholes and roadworks.
Cycling is just the fastest way to get around, you want a bike that can
deal with the conditions, and can take your shopping 🙂

Once you get out of the city, especially in the weekend, you will see more
people on sportier bikes. Though tradionally people used to do 100k trips
on those heavy things...
The serious racers are more in the south of the country, tradionally that
had something to do with the religious divide (North protestant, South
catholic) but don't ask me for details...

Roos

Adrian Boliston said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right

It primarily /is/ "just a way of getting from A to B". That doesn't
mean you can't enjoy it, I certainly enjoyed trundling round the place
on my hired Dutch bikes when I was there.
I'd like it if British urban cycling was like that, because cyclists
matter and are given priority.

Quoted message said:

as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

In the inner city they use what works best. Volume of cycle traffic
means it's easier if everyone goes at a similar speed, and for a utility
trip you want a bike you can put stuff on and you probably don't want to
waste time having a shower when you get where you're going! ("excuse me,
before I order my meal, do you have a shower in the restaurant so I can
freshen up and change out of my lycra?"😉

We were there for (amongst other things) a recumbent test ride. No
point riding the 'bents around the town, so we headed out (which is
fairly easy) into greener pastures and out there there was no particular
shortage of roadies in lycra.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Adrian Boliston said:

Would you prefer it if british cities were more like Amsterdam in respect to
cycling? I guess there must be a big environmental advantage, but it's
almost like it's just a way of getting from A to B rather than enjoyable in
it's own right, as I don't think I saw any "serious" cyclists on high spec
bikes, just those heavy things they all seem to use.

Cycling as a mode of transport! Who'd have thought it?

BugBear

"Richard Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Personally, though, I'd hate having to ride round on one of those clunky
things. Give me our system any day!

Rich

They are surprisingly good to ride.
We have two Giant Dutch bikes with alloy frames, 7 speed hub gears, lights,
carrier, fully enclosed chains - the whole 9 yards.
A local(ish) bike shop imports them.

The main reason for getting them was so that my partner and I can cycle
together in the countryside and see what is going on, in relative comfort.
She does not find the 'normal' style of cycling comfortable or pleasant -
doesn't like the forward leaning stance which hurts her arms, and doesn't
like to have to keep craning her neck to see what is going on.
[Which is a shame as I bought her a very nice Dawes hybrid which is far
better than my ageing Univega Rover 3.5. However, she just could not get on
with it. Our daughter now uses this to commute 10 miles each way to work in
the summer months.]
You may disagree with her views on cycles, but with these 'sit up and beg'
bikes we can both enjoy weekend jaunts around the countryside.
If I was on my Univega we would be totally mismatched - I would want to ride
in a completely different style.
Without the Dutch bike she would not be cycling.
There seems no particular reason (apart from massive marketing pressure) why
people have to ride the latest 'full suss' fashion offering instead of the
style of bike which has been in general use all over the world for more than
a century now.

[Which reminds me - in the early '60s I was riding a 'Hybrid' - road wheels,
flat bars, hub dynamo.
I even had a speedometer (O.K. it was gear driven) which showed an
impressive 30mph down hill slipstreaming a double decker bus.
I also had a battery tube on the frame which provided backup lighting when I
was stopped for any reason.
The only thing it didn't have was 18 gears - just a 3 speed Sturmey Archer.]

I also use the Giant for shopping - I can strap a small plastic storage box
to the carrier and get a day's shopping in that quite easily.
I would not use my MTB in normal clothes because of the exposed chain, which
can oil up your trousers if you are not careful, and the wasted time
involved in changing just to ride for 5 minutes to get to the shops makes
this impractical.
However with the Giant I can just climb on and go.

I particularly like the built in bike lock - not high security as it just
sticks a bolt through the spokes of the rear wheel but enough to stop
someone riding off if you leave it for a few minutes.
I also carry a more serious lock for when I am leaving the bike for longer
or in a high risk area, but the 'get on, ride, get off, lock, shop' approach
is swift and easy and a lot faster than walking (5 minutes vs. 15 minutes)
if you just want to nip up to the shops.
It compares favourably with using a car.

On a full day out I tend to wear my cycling shorts for comfort, and my
yellow reflective overshirt for high visibility, so I would probably tick
the boxes for both Lycra and traditional bike, unlike the Dutch :-)

The one issue I have with the bikes is if I want to get somewhere just a
little faster.
They are fully capable of getting up to a decent speed, given the 7 gears
and lightweight frame, but I find the riding position does not feel right
for 'pushing on' and the wind resistance is awesome when you are sat up
high, straight and proud.
[No doubt some of our more venerable readers will remember hunching over old
style right angled bars, elbows in the air, and pedalling like mad,
pretending to be on a 'racer' :-) ]

However putting Tri Bars on a Dutch bike does seem a little OTT.

Cheers
Dave R

Richard Goodman said:

Personally, though, I'd hate having to ride round on one of those clunky
things.

Why do you assume they're clunky? The typical Dutch spend on a new bike
is over £300 IIRC, so they tend to be rather less clunky than the stuff
bought here. Sporty they ain't, but that's not the same as "clunky".
Part of the non-sport is stuff like a full chaincase. That adds to the
weight, yes, but OTOH it means the transmission tends not to go "clunk"
very often. Part of the non-sport is hub gears and/or back-pedal
brakes. That adds to the weight, yes, but OTOH it means the
transmission tends not to go "clunk" very often. Part of the non-sport
is a carrier that can carry real loads. That adds to the weight, yes,
but OTOH means you don't feel your back going "clunk" with a loaded
rucksack on. Part of the non-sport is full mudguards. That adds to the
weight, yes, but OTOH it means you don't go "eeeeeuuuu" when you're
sprayed with cack off a wet road very often. And so on.

The Dutch city bike has evolved to fit its environment very well, and
works very well in it which is why it is such a common transport
solution. You don't /have/ to ride one, but people like stuff that
works well for the job in hand, so that's why they tend to.

Quoted message said:

Give me our system any day!

In the UK the market is dominated by either sports equipment or stuff
that is pretending to be. I see there is a new marketing take on the
hybrid as a tough urban street bike, but rather oddly these "cool"
machines typically have no mudguards and no rack, so the UK's tough
urban road warrior gets sprayed with cack if the roads are wet and has
nowhere to put anything on the bike and spends a lot more time on
maintaining their numerous and over specified derailleur gears and their
brakes. If you'd sooner have that than a comfortable and practical bike
to get you where you're going with a minimum of fuss "any day" then
that's your lookout! Do you /really/ like to make your life much harder
than necessary?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Richard Goodman said:

"Richard Lucas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm just back from a trip to Holland. Cycling is just a way of getting
from A rto B in Holland - why should it be more?

Why is for fun. But I also cycle as a way from getting from A to B, and
need to do it rather more quickly than I could on a roadster!

Dutch people take their kids to nursery on a bike, go shopping on a bike -
they use them as apractical means of transport. The enclosed chain,
mudgurds, and the semi-enclosed rear wheel mean you don't have to change
out of strreet clothes to this. They are practical, and also fun to ride.
They suit the environment they are designed for.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.gazelle.nl/

and

http://www.sparta.nl/nl/

Think I'll pass, thanks..

Don't knock it until you have had a look.

--
Best Regards
Richard

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Richard Goodman said:

Quoted message said:

Personally, though, I'd hate having to ride round on one of those clunky
things.

Quoted message said:

Why do you assume they're clunky?

"Clunky" is how I would say they look to me, rather than behave - perhaps
"chunky" might have been more apt.

Quoted message said:

Part of the non-sport is full mudguards. That adds to the weight, yes,
but OTOH it means you don't go "eeeeeuuuu" when you're sprayed with cack
off a wet road very often. And so on.

You can put mudguards on a reasonably sporty bike as well - I do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Dutch city bike has evolved to fit its environment very well, and
works very well in it which is why it is such a common transport
solution. You don't /have/ to ride one, but people like stuff that works
well for the job in hand, so that's why they tend to.

I'm sure it has, and I don't really have anything to say against them for
anyone who likes to ride that kind of bike, they just don't appeal to me
personally, that's all. But anyone who likes them and finds them practical
for their use is welcome to them. What I would dislike is a situation where
one felt obliged to conform to that as a norm, for whatever reasons.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Give me our system any day!

Quoted message said:

In the UK the market is dominated by either sports equipment or stuff that
is pretending to be. I see there is a new marketing take on the hybrid as
a tough urban street bike, but rather oddly these "cool" machines
typically have no mudguards and no rack, so the UK's tough urban road
warrior gets sprayed with cack if the roads are wet and has nowhere to put
anything on the bike and spends a lot more time on maintaining their
numerous and over specified derailleur gears and their brakes. If you'd
sooner have that than a comfortable and practical bike to get you where
you're going with a minimum of fuss "any day" then that's your lookout!
Do you /really/ like to make your life much harder than necessary?

But you can put mudguards and racks on good bikes too. I have a ti-framed
carbon-forked bike with them which suits me for year round fast commuting,
occasional touring and weekend audaxes, as well as shopping trips with
panniers or trailer. I've gone up mountains with it. I could take it off
road if I wanted - it's a mtb frame. It seems to weigh about half as much
as a colleague's roadster style bike, and I wouldn't want to ride that up
even some of London's hills, let alone continental mountain passes. So if
you ask me which is the more versatile bike, I'd have to say mine.

But for pootling around a flat city, the roadster may be very well suited as
a minimum maintenance kind of machine. Fine, if you like it.

Rich

Peter Clinch said:

Why do you assume they're clunky? The typical Dutch spend on a new bike
is over £300 IIRC, so they tend to be rather less clunky than the stuff
bought here.

Indeed. I saw plenty of bikes in hollland that carry a price tag well
¤1000. My wife thinks she would do very well with one of these in Fife:

http://www.gazelle.nl/www2/detail.php?Bike_Cat=5&Bike_ID=68&cl=1&cm=ModelB
--
Best Regards
Richard

Richard Goodman said:

What I would dislike is a situation where
one felt obliged to conform to that as a norm, for whatever reasons.

The Dutch are not a people who feel obliged to conform to norms, in my
extensive experience of them, including 27 years of marriage to a citizen
of Koninkrijk der Nederlanden! It isn't against the law or any social norm
to ride a non-roadster bike in Holland, I can assure you.
--
Best Regards
Richard

Richard Goodman wrote:
[Dutch city bikes]

Quoted message said:

I'm sure it has, and I don't really have anything to say against them for
anyone who likes to ride that kind of bike, they just don't appeal to me
personally, that's all. But anyone who likes them and finds them practical
for their use is welcome to them. What I would dislike is a situation where
one felt obliged to conform to that as a norm, for whatever reasons.

Is that being suggested by anyone? Is there the slightest chance?

It seems far more credible to say that peer pressure, bike [censored] and
fashion is enough to make very many cyclists conform to the norm of
getting a mountain bike or something like it, even if other types would
be much more practical for the intended use.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap