Reading/posting on usenet rbm and rbt

Joshua Lee said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works? I look at it in three
ways and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new
subject has been posted and when it appears in different forums. More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

I can't answer all your questions, but the time it takes for a message to
appear after posting from Outlook Express depends on which news server you
use. (You don't have to use your ISP's). I'll post this and see how long
it takes with mine..... Back in a tick.

~PB

.....Hello again, how's that? That was just a few seconds.

See http://news.individual.net

~PB

Go to:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.bicycles
and use Google for all your posts and replies. I quit using my ISP's
news server because it would get too delete happy. There is almost time
delay.

"There is almost no tiime delay."

On 20 Mar 2005 18:08:33 -0800, "Joshua Lee" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works?

The Usenet that can be fully understood is not the true Usenet.

Quoted message said:

I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums.

That's because there are numerous factors which may speed or delay
propagation, and not all of them are visible to you.

Quoted message said:

More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

Oboy.

Okay, first, there is no single central repository for Usenet traffic,
and indeed, there is no physical "thing" called Usenet; the articles
are just bits of information that are traded around between machines
on the Internet and off of it, and the server processes that store,
sort, catalog, fetch and forward those articles are each autonomous
and often disparate packages that run on the machines where their
administrators have placed them.

Each news server maintains its own cache of articles, grabbing fresh
ones from servers that it talks to, and making available those that it
has stored or which it has received from users, according to the
unique setiings that its administrator has configured.

If you look at the Path: line of a Usenet header, you'll see how many
hops the article in question made before it got to the server you use.
Each server in that path represents a propagation delay of anywhere
from milliseconds to hours. Two articles posted at identical times on
two different servers, even though the servers might be in close
physical proximity, could have propagation times to a third server
that could vary by a full day.

So, to answer what I believe is your unstated but central question,
the reason it seems random and unpredictable is that it *is* random
and unpredictable to a large extent.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Okay, first, there is no single central repository for Usenet
traffic, and indeed, there is no physical "thing" called Usenet; the
articles are just bits of information that are traded around between
machines on the Internet and off of it, and the server processes
that store, sort, catalog, fetch and forward those articles are each
autonomous and often disparate packages that run on the machines
where their administrators have placed them.

Quoted message said:

Each news server maintains its own cache of articles, grabbing fresh
ones from servers that it talks to, and making available those that
it has stored or which it has received from users, according to the
unique settings that its administrator has configured.

Quoted message said:

If you look at the Path: line of a Usenet header, you'll see how
many hops the article in question made before it got to the server
you use. Each server in that path represents a propagation delay of
anywhere from milliseconds to hours. Two articles posted at
identical times on two different servers, even though the servers
might be in close physical proximity, could have propagation times
to a third server that could vary by a full day.

I find the path from your server (Earthlink) to mine (Sonic) a
classic of Usenet. No doubt that path is also variable.

Path:

typhoon.sonic.net!
feed.news.sonic.net!
HSNX.atgi.net!
news-han1.dfn.de!
news-lei1.dfn.lei1.dfn.de!
news1.uni-leipzig.de!
fu-berlin.de!
uni-berlin.de!
individual.net!

From: Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So, to answer what I believe is your unstated but central question,
the reason it seems random and unpredictable is that it *is* random
and unpredictable to a large extent.

I don't know why it chose to go via Germany but that may be because
traffic is low right now. I also fin interesting that Earthlink does
not appear on the chain, but then you may be posting from some other
place. Sonic is a great and fast connection for me and it supports
tin (a smart threaded news reader) with emacs that is designed to
format postings to newsgroups.

[email hidden]

Werehatrack said:

On 20 Mar 2005 18:08:33 -0800, "Joshua Lee" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works?

The Usenet that can be fully understood is not the true Usenet.

Quoted message said:

I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums.

That's because there are numerous factors which may speed or delay
propagation, and not all of them are visible to you.

Quoted message said:

More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

Oboy.

Okay, first, there is no single central repository for Usenet traffic,
and indeed, there is no physical "thing" called Usenet; the articles
are just bits of information that are traded around between machines
on the Internet and off of it, and the server processes that store,
sort, catalog, fetch and forward those articles are each autonomous
and often disparate packages that run on the machines where their
administrators have placed them.

Each news server maintains its own cache of articles, grabbing fresh
ones from servers that it talks to, and making available those that it
has stored or which it has received from users, according to the
unique setiings that its administrator has configured.

If you look at the Path: line of a Usenet header, you'll see how many
hops the article in question made before it got to the server you use.
Each server in that path represents a propagation delay of anywhere
from milliseconds to hours. Two articles posted at identical times on
two different servers, even though the servers might be in close
physical proximity, could have propagation times to a third server
that could vary by a full day.

So, to answer what I believe is your unstated but central question,
the reason it seems random and unpredictable is that it *is* random
and unpredictable to a large extent.

Next: Please explain the behavior of those who post to Usenet.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

So, to answer what I believe is your unstated but central question,
the reason it seems random and unpredictable is that it *is* random
and unpredictable to a large extent.

Next: Please explain the behavior of those who post to Usenet.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Please don't.

Jeff Wills - upwind of Mt. St. Helens

Jobst Brandt said:

Werehatrack said:

Okay, first, there is no single central repository for Usenet
traffic, and indeed, there is no physical "thing" called Usenet; the
articles are just bits of information that are traded around between
machines on the Internet and off of it, and the server processes
that store, sort, catalog, fetch and forward those articles are each
autonomous and often disparate packages that run on the machines
where their administrators have placed them.

Quoted message said:

Each news server maintains its own cache of articles, grabbing fresh
ones from servers that it talks to, and making available those that
it has stored or which it has received from users, according to the
unique settings that its administrator has configured.

Quoted message said:

If you look at the Path: line of a Usenet header, you'll see how
many hops the article in question made before it got to the server
you use. Each server in that path represents a propagation delay of
anywhere from milliseconds to hours. Two articles posted at
identical times on two different servers, even though the servers
might be in close physical proximity, could have propagation times
to a third server that could vary by a full day.

I find the path from your server (Earthlink) to mine (Sonic) a
classic of Usenet. No doubt that path is also variable.

Path:

typhoon.sonic.net!
feed.news.sonic.net!
HSNX.atgi.net!
news-han1.dfn.de!
news-lei1.dfn.lei1.dfn.de!
news1.uni-leipzig.de!
fu-berlin.de!
uni-berlin.de!
individual.net!

From: Werehatrack <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So, to answer what I believe is your unstated but central question,
the reason it seems random and unpredictable is that it *is* random
and unpredictable to a large extent.

I don't know why it chose to go via Germany but that may be because
traffic is low right now. I also fin interesting that Earthlink does
not appear on the chain, but then you may be posting from some other
place. Sonic is a great and fast connection for me and it supports
tin (a smart threaded news reader) with emacs that is designed to
format postings to newsgroups.

I suspect the path for my message looks much the same, since I am also
using news.individual.net which is a news feed provided by the Freie
Universität Berlin.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)

Joshua Lee said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works? I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums. More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

Joshua

Read here first:
http://www.adelphiapowerpage.com/synacor/faqs/Newsgroup_Faqs.cfm#4

Cyclingforums and google are not straight usenet. They are web based
representations of Usenet. That means they have to recieve all the
messages everyone else does and then process them to put them in a web
displayable format. So they're slower. But if their server gets the
message before your server, they could concievably still be faster.

I doubt if that clarifies much.

Joshua Lee said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works? I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums. More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

Joshua

Read here first:
http://www.adelphiapowerpage.com/synacor/faqs/Newsgroup_Faqs.cfm#4

Cyclingforums and google are not straight usenet. They are web based
representations of Usenet. That means they have to recieve all the
messages everyone else does and then process them to put them in a web
displayable format. So they're slower. But if their server gets the
message before your server, they could concievably still be faster.

I doubt if that clarifies much.

Tim Lines said:

Joshua Lee wrote:

I believe it works something like this...
your internet service provider has a server that subscribes to certain
NG's and then posts/retrieves the news postings when you request (if you
have had a variety of internet servers over the years, you may note that
some NG's are NOT available while others are... that is because that ISP
does not subscribe or host that NG; usually if this is the case, you can
send a request to the ISP and they will oblige... but I digress)

Some ISP's will open their gateway to post the news postings IMMEDIATELY
(or have dedicated connections ... e.g. if I post a posting and refresh
my list, I see it right away). But time is money, and certain ISPa *may*
only periodically open their gateway and post your news messages a few
times a day. In the old days, AOL would not send their e-mail messages
out immediately. Often, a day might go by before I'd get mail from my
AOL friends... ISPs may be paying for access from another larger ISP...
if they only connect every 2-3 hours, they may be able to SAVE $$

in general, News Groups are not a money maker for ISP's; hosting the
messages on a server takes up a lot of room and bandwitdth, and with the
# of NG's going up every day (there must be 40-50 thousand groups), it
is not hugely profitable. There is a dedicated core of NG users, but it
likely represents just a small % of total subscribers to the service.

*plink plink*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works? I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums. More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

Joshua

Read here first:
http://www.adelphiapowerpage.com/synacor/faqs/Newsgroup_Faqs.cfm#4

Cyclingforums and google are not straight usenet. They are web based
representations of Usenet. That means they have to recieve all the
messages everyone else does and then process them to put them in a web
displayable format. So they're slower. But if their server gets the
message before your server, they could concievably still be faster.

I doubt if that clarifies much.

Joshua Lee said:

Hi folks,

Anyone understand well how the usenet works? I look at it in three ways
and can't figure out how the lag time works between when a new subject
has been posted and when it appears in different forums. More
specifically, I use outlook express with a news server, cyclingforums
and google. When I post using Outlook Express, I can't see it for
hours, if not a whole day, on the other two forums. I also know google
has a delay of minutes or sometimes hours compared to cyclingforums.
Can anyone shed some light on this? While you're at it, where is all
the info posted stored? Some University server?

NNTP (network news transfer protocol) is a distributed service, so
basically you have to wait for the messages to find their way to your
own ISP's news server. They get copied around in an arcane order
depending on where they were first posted. They'll stay on the local
server until they're deleted according to the ISP's archive policy.
Google News, which does keep postings indefinitely, is often a couple of
hours behind - I don't know about cyclingforums, except that some of the
forums are an attempt to cash in on the free (as in beer and speech)
Usenet by making you look at adverts.

Werehatrack said:

The Usenet that can be fully understood is not the true Usenet.

A monk asked Chao-chou: What is zazen?

Chao-chou replied: It is non-zazen.

The bewildered monk said: How can zazen be non-zazen?

It’s alive! was Chao-chou’s reply.

ZEN MONDO

---
"BitwiseBob" - Bob Anderson
Eugene Oregon