Lateral raises -- necessary?

"vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

It is doubtful that very many folks really developed much in the way of
deltoid mass with fluff movements like lateral raises.

Dump 'em. You don't need them. Protect your shoulder health at all costs.
Lots of oldtimers in the weight game with gimpy shoulders.

I do lateral raises because my "old timer" trainer told me to. Make sure
you warm up before doing them by "flapping" your arms up and down.
Otherwise, you really feel the stretching on those first few raises.

"vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

I pretty much only add isolation exercises like that if it seems something
is getting neglected otherwise. I have no trouble getting my delts sore without
lateral raises. YMMV.

vmc said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

Not only are they not necessary, they are a waste of time, and
dangerous. Stick to movements that feel natural.

--Falooley

On 10 Mar 2005 08:25:56 -0800, "vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

I do them all the time to keep my shoulders healthy as well as other
shoulder movements.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10 Mar 2005 08:25:56 -0800, "vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

I do them all the time to keep my shoulders healthy as well as other
shoulder movements.

Me too. Elbows bent and not raising above the ear. That and external
rotation exercises on the cable machine to help balance out the anterior
delt work of a lot of benching.

"vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

I prefer a shoulder press like the Arnold press with dumbbells or
kettlebells. You might try alternating cycles of barbell military
presses with dumbbell or kettlebell Arnold presses, or doing the
dumbbell/kettlebell press with a relatively lighter weight in the same
cycle as the barbell military. At the very least, if they're causing
you discomfort, drop them for a few days or even a few weeks and see if
the discomfort persists when you start again.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Jim R. said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10 Mar 2005 08:25:56 -0800, "vmc" <[email hidden]> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

How important are lateral raises (or raises of any sort, really) for
overall shoulder development? I'm currently doing military presses and
incline bench presses on my push day. Lateral raises always feel
awkward to me though, and there's usually some discomfort at the start
and finish of the movement -- I'm worried about this leading to injury
down the road. I'd really like to get some added width though, and I
understand lateral raises are important for this. Or are they not? If
the only offer marginal benefits over what I'm already doing, I'll
gladly skip them.

I do them all the time to keep my shoulders healthy as well as other
shoulder movements.

Me too. Elbows bent and not raising above the ear. That and external
rotation exercises on the cable machine to help balance out the anterior
delt work of a lot of benching.

I did the elbows bent kind, but I went too heavy one day and something
popped in the base of my neck, leaving it stiff for a month. That is
why I claim they are dangerous, but as with every other lift, i suppose
if you do it smart (not lifting too heavy) it isn't dangerous.

Still I dropped them and all other isolation's from my routine when I
began lurking here and have less injuries and am happier for it.

--Falooley

Justin Case said:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:54:33 -0500, Bob Falooley <[email hidden]>
wrote:

To someone who wants to grow big shoulders, they're not a waste of
time. Dangerous? How so?

Ok, this is just my opinion and I could very easily be wrong.

If you want to grow big shoulders, you have to lift big weights.
Lifting big weights should only be done in natural positions that put
the body in good alignment, where a maximum force can safely be exerted.
These positions are used in the compound movements, presses, and rows,
pullups, and the like.

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't
know the anatomical definition. With the weight in this position, you
are basically lifting against the natural mechanics of your body,
putting undo stress on the shoulder joint, and putting undo stress on
stablizing muscles.

I know you are saying, "yes but you have to stress the muscles to get
them to grow." But to do the movement safely you can only do a fraction
of the weight of which you could do in an overhead press. So you can't
really safely overload the shoulders with these movements, as you could
with an overhead press.

I can see how there would be a benifit to the shoulder joint working
full ROM lateral and front. If you have to do these raises I would
suggest doing them with light weights as a warmup before your presses,
but in no way are they necessary, I can warmup my shoulders with arm
circles just fine.

And I wouldn't go around thinking lateral raises build big soulders.
big shoulders are built by Bench, Military Press, Dead Lifts, Rows, and
other compound movements.

--Falooley

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:25:15 -0500, Bob Falooley <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Justin Case said:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:54:33 -0500, Bob Falooley <[email hidden]>
wrote:

To someone who wants to grow big shoulders, they're not a waste of
time. Dangerous? How so?

Ok, this is just my opinion and I could very easily be wrong.

If you want to grow big shoulders, you have to lift big weights.

Weights that are heavy for the particular exercise. A heavy lateral
raise is a heavy weight.

Quoted message said:

Lifting big weights should only be done in natural positions that put
the body in good alignment, where a maximum force can safely be exerted.
These positions are used in the compound movements, presses, and rows,
pullups, and the like.

Like straight leg deadlifts, curls, leg curls, good mornings?
Barbell bench press is probably high on the list of shoulder killers
for a lot of people.

Quoted message said:

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't
know the anatomical definition. With the weight in this position, you
are basically lifting against the natural mechanics of your body,
putting undo stress on the shoulder joint, and putting undo stress on
stablizing muscles.

I know you are saying, "yes but you have to stress the muscles to get
them to grow." But to do the movement safely you can only do a fraction

No, I'm not from that camp. I agree (and practice) that heavy
compounds should be the basis of anyones program.

Quoted message said:

of the weight of which you could do in an overhead press. So you can't
really safely overload the shoulders with these movements, as you could
with an overhead press.

After doing heavy benches, an overhead press is going nowhere. So
there goes your shoulder workout. Laterals are just the thing in that
case.

Quoted message said:

I can see how there would be a benifit to the shoulder joint working
full ROM lateral and front. If you have to do these raises I would
suggest doing them with light weights as a warmup before your presses,
but in no way are they necessary, I can warmup my shoulders with arm
circles just fine.

I've do them whenever I'm not overhead pressing, I do them heavy and
never experienced any problems.

Quoted message said:

And I wouldn't go around thinking lateral raises build big soulders.
big shoulders are built by Bench, Military Press, Dead Lifts, Rows, and
other compound movements.

In my experience, they certainly do contribute. Some people can grow
without any iso exercises, other people need some here & there. And
there's nothing wrong about including some iso's in a routine.

I respect your reasoning, Bob, if it suits you that's great.
I wouldn't say any of it is wrong but the potential for injury from
them and their uselessness, I think, is overstated. I'm not going to
say they're necessary / a must do exercise but they have their place.
Especially if the training goals are bodybuilding in nature. Certainly
not a waste of time.

I swear by the nautilus side lateral machine. Excellent uniform
resistance throughout the range of motion. And, what a pump if you do
it slow, 4 seconds positive part of the motion, 2 second hold at full
contraction and 4 seconds for negative and go right into the next rep
with no pause.

No one use this piece of apparatus? I dropped side lateral dumbell
raises ever since I discovered this machine.

Will build you some cannon ball delts. Worth a try.

- abir

PS - also addresses that "sheer" factor Bob was talking about, the
resistance pushes down at a point on your upper arms, close to your
body

Bob Falooley said:

Justin Case said:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:54:33 -0500, Bob Falooley

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote:

To someone who wants to grow big shoulders, they're not a waste of
time. Dangerous? How so?

Ok, this is just my opinion and I could very easily be wrong.

If you want to grow big shoulders, you have to lift big weights.
Lifting big weights should only be done in natural positions that put

Quoted message said:

the body in good alignment, where a maximum force can safely be

exerted.

Quoted message said:

These positions are used in the compound movements, presses, and

rows,

Quoted message said:

pullups, and the like.

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from

Quoted message said:

your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't

Quoted message said:

know the anatomical definition. With the weight in this position,

you

Quoted message said:

are basically lifting against the natural mechanics of your body,
putting undo stress on the shoulder joint, and putting undo stress on

Quoted message said:

stablizing muscles.

I know you are saying, "yes but you have to stress the muscles to get

Quoted message said:

them to grow." But to do the movement safely you can only do a

fraction

Quoted message said:

of the weight of which you could do in an overhead press. So you

can't

Quoted message said:

really safely overload the shoulders with these movements, as you

could

Quoted message said:

with an overhead press.

I can see how there would be a benifit to the shoulder joint working
full ROM lateral and front. If you have to do these raises I would
suggest doing them with light weights as a warmup before your

presses,

Quoted message said:

but in no way are they necessary, I can warmup my shoulders with arm

Quoted message said:

circles just fine.

And I wouldn't go around thinking lateral raises build big soulders.
big shoulders are built by Bench, Military Press, Dead Lifts, Rows,

and

Quoted message said:

other compound movements.

--Falooley

sculptorOfFlesh said:

I swear by the nautilus side lateral machine. Excellent uniform
resistance throughout the range of motion. And, what a pump if you do
it slow, 4 seconds positive part of the motion, 2 second hold at full
contraction and 4 seconds for negative and go right into the next rep
with no pause.

No one use this piece of apparatus? I dropped side lateral dumbell
raises ever since I discovered this machine.

Will build you some cannon ball delts. Worth a try.

- abir

PS - also addresses that "sheer" factor Bob was talking about, the
resistance pushes down at a point on your upper arms, close to your
body

that "sheer" issue sounds like made-up to me. the only
stress point is the elbow. if you have some problems
with tendonitis or other elbow difficulties, you'll be
limited with lateral dumbbell raises.
....thehick

Bob Falooley said:

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't

It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to GaTech for Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!

--
***************************************************************
Peter Attar
NRC Research Associate
Computational Sciences Branch
Air Vehicles Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Falooley said:

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't

It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to GaTech for

Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!

Quoted message said:

--
***************************************************************
Peter Attar
NRC Research Associate
Computational Sciences Branch
Air Vehicles Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory

Here's why there's so much confusion:

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheer
"Almost perpendicular; steep: sheer rock cliffs."
"turn sharply; change direction abruptly"
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shear
"Physics. To become deformed by forces tending to produce a shearing
strain."
"a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel but are
shifted in a direction parallel to themselves; "the shear changed the
quadrilateral into a parallelogram"

From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/sheer.html
adjective
"vertical: rising nearly straight up or falling nearly straight down over a
long distance"
"They looked over the edge and there was a sheer drop."
adverb
1. Vertically: with an almost vertical rise or fall
From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/shear.html
"deform by applying twisting force: to cause something to deform or break by
applying a twisting force"

To sum it up:
Sheer = "almost perpendicular"
Shear = "deforming or twisting"

you are among fellow meat heads, no shame

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:26:56 GMT, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Falooley said:

Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't

It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to GaTech for

Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!

Quoted message said:

--
***************************************************************
Peter Attar
NRC Research Associate
Computational Sciences Branch
Air Vehicles Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory

Here's why there's so much confusion:

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheer
"Almost perpendicular; steep: sheer rock cliffs."
"turn sharply; change direction abruptly"
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shear
"Physics. To become deformed by forces tending to produce a shearing
strain."
"a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel but are
shifted in a direction parallel to themselves; "the shear changed the
quadrilateral into a parallelogram"

From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/sheer.html
adjective
"vertical: rising nearly straight up or falling nearly straight down over a
long distance"
"They looked over the edge and there was a sheer drop."
adverb
1. Vertically: with an almost vertical rise or fall
From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/shear.html
"deform by applying twisting force: to cause something to deform or break by
applying a twisting force"

To sum it up:
Sheer = "almost perpendicular"
Shear = "deforming or twisting"

Which one is it for the see through nightie?

John Hanson said:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:26:56 GMT, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Falooley <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away from
> your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I don't

It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to GaTech for

Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!

Quoted message said:

--
***************************************************************
Peter Attar
NRC Research Associate
Computational Sciences Branch
Air Vehicles Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory

Here's why there's so much confusion:

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheer
"Almost perpendicular; steep: sheer rock cliffs."
"turn sharply; change direction abruptly"
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shear
"Physics. To become deformed by forces tending to produce a shearing
strain."
"a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel but are
shifted in a direction parallel to themselves; "the shear changed the
quadrilateral into a parallelogram"

From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/sheer.html
adjective
"vertical: rising nearly straight up or falling nearly straight down over a
long distance"
"They looked over the edge and there was a sheer drop."
adverb
1. Vertically: with an almost vertical rise or fall
From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/shear.html
"deform by applying twisting force: to cause something to deform or break by
applying a twisting force"

To sum it up:
Sheer = "almost perpendicular"
Shear = "deforming or twisting"

Which one is it for the see through nightie?

That would be sheer delight JH!! ;o)

Have a great weekend - you know I will!!

TFIF!!

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:26:56 GMT, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Falooley <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away
> from
> your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here but I
> don't

It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to
GaTech for

Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!

Quoted message said:

--
***************************************************************
Peter Attar
NRC Research Associate
Computational Sciences Branch
Air Vehicles Directorate
Air Force Research Laboratory

Here's why there's so much confusion:

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheer
"Almost perpendicular; steep: sheer rock cliffs."
"turn sharply; change direction abruptly"
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shear
"Physics. To become deformed by forces tending to produce a shearing
strain."
"a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel
but are
shifted in a direction parallel to themselves; "the shear changed the
quadrilateral into a parallelogram"

From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/sheer.html
adjective
"vertical: rising nearly straight up or falling nearly straight down
over a
long distance"
"They looked over the edge and there was a sheer drop."
adverb
1. Vertically: with an almost vertical rise or fall
From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/shear.html
"deform by applying twisting force: to cause something to deform or
break by
applying a twisting force"

To sum it up:
Sheer = "almost perpendicular"
Shear = "deforming or twisting"

Which one is it for the see through nightie?

S*ee*-through, Sh*ee*r

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Charles said:

John Hanson said:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:26:56 GMT, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Bob Falooley <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Movements like lateral and front raises, put the weight far away
> > from your body, I think "sheer" is the word I want to use here
> > but I don't
>
> It's shear and I wouldn't normally point this out but you go to
> GaTech for
Pete's sake!!! Shame on you!!
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ***************************************************************
> Peter Attar
> NRC Research Associate
> Computational Sciences Branch
> Air Vehicles Directorate
> Air Force Research Laboratory
>

Here's why there's so much confusion:

From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sheer
"Almost perpendicular; steep: sheer rock cliffs."
"turn sharply; change direction abruptly"
From: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shear
"Physics. To become deformed by forces tending to produce a shearing
strain."
"a deformation of an object in which parallel planes remain parallel
but are shifted in a direction parallel to themselves; "the shear
changed the quadrilateral into a parallelogram"

From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/sheer.html
adjective
"vertical: rising nearly straight up or falling nearly straight down
over a long distance"
"They looked over the edge and there was a sheer drop."
adverb
1. Vertically: with an almost vertical rise or fall
From: http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/shear.html
"deform by applying twisting force: to cause something to deform or
break by applying a twisting force"

To sum it up:
Sheer = "almost perpendicular"
Shear = "deforming or twisting"

Which one is it for the see through nightie?

That would be sheer delight JH!! ;o)

Depend on what you see. It should be sheer horror. 🙂