I like to watch

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy camp).
The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the request?

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

Ever see the sign in the repair shop?

Labor: $50/hour.
If you watch: $75/hour.
If you worked on it before bring it here: $90/hour.
If you worked on it before bring it here, and you watch: $120/hour.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 18:28:42 GMT, Neil Brooks <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy camp).
The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the request?

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

Comments...

The job will get done faster if the work is not interrupted, and it's
likely that a better result will be obaitined as well. If you must
watch, do it from a polite distance without comment or interference
unless specifically invited to participate. Preferably, do it from
the other side of a window.

Building machinery of any type is often like making laws or sausages;
you're often better off not seeing the process, and concentrating on
the finished product instead.

All of that said, it's the proclivities and preferences of the shop
owner and the tech which should determine the answer to your question.
The opinions of all here (including myself) are, in my opinion,
irrelevant in the face of that.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Tom Sherman said:

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy camp).
The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the request?

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

Ever see the sign in the repair shop?

Labor: $50/hour.
If you watch: $75/hour.
If you worked on it before bring it here: $90/hour.
If you worked on it before bring it here, and you watch: $120/hour.

I was kind of hoping that was covered under the "case of beer each"
clause....

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy

camp).

Quoted message said:

The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create

in

Quoted message said:

the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the

request?

Quoted message said:

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

I disagree completely with the other posters. 25 years ago there was a
small bike shop here in town that had the repair facility right out in
the open and encouraged people to sit, watch and ask questions. It was
just one guy working out of an out building on his property but he
seemed to do good business. He sold parts and used bikes as well. It
was also a cool place to hang out and meet for rides. His wife's job
transferred her to Santa Barbara so that was the end of that.

Tom

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy camp).
The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the request?

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

That will vary a lot by shop.

Yes, call first.

Here, we don't mind at all but we'll schedule it off-hours
so we can _just_ build your bike --without a few dozen
interruptions.

I should think most mechanics would be proud of their work
but instead many shops seem inexplicably not to like
customers watching.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

I should think most mechanics would be proud of their work but instead
many shops seem inexplicably not to like customers watching.

That's for when the big hammer comes out ;-)

Semi-seriously, removing seized parts or realigning a frame can be less
than pretty to the uninitiated. Seeing the LBS's resident gorilla
removing that stuck seatpost is probably on a par with watching your cat
being spayed ;-)

Quoted message said:

Neil Brooks wrote:

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

Quoted message said:

I disagree completely with the other posters. 25 years ago there was a
small bike shop here in town that had the repair facility right out in
the open and encouraged people to sit, watch and ask questions. It was
just one guy working out of an out building on his property but he
seemed to do good business. He sold parts and used bikes as well. It
was also a cool place to hang out and meet for rides. His wife's job
transferred her to Santa Barbara so that was the end of that.

I not only think you're right, Tom, I put my service
department in plain sight.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Tom Sherman said:

Neil Brooks wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy camp).
The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

Just as a datapoint, my Chinese thesis advisor has great english
pronounciation and enunciation, but when she steps up in front of a
crowd, she suddenly sounds like she just got off a boat from China.

Being watched by others will increase stress on the mechanic and
therefore make him/her more likely to mess up, even if you don't say a
single word ... It's just human nature ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

email hidden said:

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy

camp).

Quoted message said:

The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create

in

Quoted message said:

the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the

request?

Quoted message said:

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

I disagree completely with the other posters. 25 years ago there was a
small bike shop here in town that had the repair facility right out in
the open and encouraged people to sit, watch and ask questions. It was
just one guy working out of an out building on his property but he
seemed to do good business. He sold parts and used bikes as well. It
was also a cool place to hang out and meet for rides. His wife's job
transferred her to Santa Barbara so that was the end of that.

It ALL depends on the personality of the mechanic and for some, just what it is
he's doing. I electro-musical gadgets, not bikes, and I do NOT like to be
watched troubleshooting, diagnosing, repairing. A clean build using all fresh
new parts doesn't bother me - always happy to do a bit of show and tell. That's
different from problem solving which is not always a pretty process and one that
I don't want to begrudge the brain cells that having a watcher will consume.

Ron

RonSonic said:

It ALL depends on the personality of the mechanic and for some, just what it is
he's doing. I electro-musical gadgets, not bikes, and I do NOT like to be
watched troubleshooting, diagnosing, repairing. A clean build using all fresh
new parts doesn't bother me - always happy to do a bit of show and tell. That's
different from problem solving which is not always a pretty process and one that
I don't want to begrudge the brain cells that having a watcher will consume.

.. . . and that's one of the things I'm /hoping/ I have going for me,
Ron: it's a build, not a fix. Brand new, shiny, clean parts coming
out of bags and boxes and a newly built frame coming from a
manufacturer known for fine craftsmanship. With luck, the 20lb sledge
won't be necessary on day one.

I think what I'm hearing is that this is not an unreasonable request,
that it should /be/ a request, and that it may or may not be granted.
This shop doesn't have their service area walled off with four feet of
reinforced concrete, so that bodes fairly well.

I fully agree with the post that said I would do well to act as a
fixture unless engaged by the wrench. I'd be there to watch, learn,
and to feel as though I was present when my baby was born. I don't
/really/ know s*it from Shinola, so far be it for me to say, "Uh, I
believe Park Tools recommends that you torque that to 200 in-lbs,
buddy!"

I figure, if I'm cool, and if I'm lucky, I'll get a wrench who's into
teaching as he goes, perhaps telling me the pros and cons of the
components that I chose (the /real/ pros and cons--the mechanic's
view).

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 00:09:56 GMT, Neil Brooks <[email hidden]> may

have said:

RonSonic said:

It ALL depends on the personality of the mechanic and for some, just what it is
he's doing...

Which is not far from part of what I stated.

Quoted message said:

. . . and that's one of the things I'm /hoping/ I have going for me,
Ron: it's a build, not a fix. Brand new, shiny, clean parts coming
out of bags and boxes and a newly built frame coming from a
manufacturer known for fine craftsmanship. With luck, the 20lb sledge
won't be necessary on day one.

While the 20lb sledge is not likely to be hauled out in such
circumstances in part because the process in question presumably does
not include any combination of components that the shop has not tried
before, finicky little things can crop up which an attentive, involved
and uninterrupted tech will spot and handle, but which might get
missed if the train of thought gets derailed. Some people can work
through interruptions seamlessly and faultlessly, but most anyone is
going to do a better job when their attention focus remains on the
task at hand.

That said, assembling a bike isn't steam engine science; there aren't
all that many opportunities for a slip, but "not that many" does not
always equate to zero, and we recently saw what can happen when a
momentary lapse of attention causes someone to pick up the wrong tool.

OTOH, I never had a problem with people stopping by my shop to watch
as their engine was built (or someone else's, for that matter), but I
knew a lot of mechanics who worked a lot better when they had no
distractions.

It all boils down to the individuals involved. That's why I said that
the shop's policies trumped all opinions expressed here.

Quoted message said:

I think what I'm hearing is that this is not an unreasonable request,
that it should /be/ a request, and that it may or may not be granted.
This shop doesn't have their service area walled off with four feet of
reinforced concrete, so that bodes fairly well.

Most bike shops don't, but your approach is still wise.

Quoted message said:

I fully agree with the post that said I would do well to act as a
fixture unless engaged by the wrench. I'd be there to watch, learn,
and to feel as though I was present when my baby was born. I don't
/really/ know s*it from Shinola, so far be it for me to say, "Uh, I
believe Park Tools recommends that you torque that to 200 in-lbs,
buddy!"

Hoo, boy, yeah. You've got a grip on the approach I'd loved to have
seen a few times over the years.

Quoted message said:

I figure, if I'm cool, and if I'm lucky, I'll get a wrench who's into
teaching as he goes, perhaps telling me the pros and cons of the
components that I chose (the /real/ pros and cons--the mechanic's
view).

This is one of the things that can make it really worthwhile; another
would be the tips along the way to the effect of "If this bit here is
oversnurgled, the kelf will frammistate, and you have to readjust the
barg." And even when everything is done to perfection, it's not
uncommon to need to revisit the adjustments after a short running
period; with luck, you'll get the tips about what those are likely to
entail...and why, and how much.

Yes, ask, by all means.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 20:43:54 +0000, Zog The Undeniable

may have said:

A Muzi said:

I should think most mechanics would be proud of their work but instead
many shops seem inexplicably not to like customers watching.

That's for when the big hammer comes out ;-)

Semi-seriously, removing seized parts or realigning a frame can be less
than pretty to the uninitiated. Seeing the LBS's resident gorilla
removing that stuck seatpost is probably on a par with watching your cat
being spayed ;-)

Yup, but the process involved in the situation under discussion should
not, in theory, be fraught with such possibilities. OTOH, the
pervrsity of the universe often tends toward a maximum under such
circumstances.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

This is one of the things that can make it really worthwhile; another
would be the tips along the way to the effect of "If this bit here is
oversnurgled, the kelf will frammistate, and you have to readjust the
barg."

Never, never oversnurgle. This will cause greased tapirs to roam
through your bedroom at night.

Mark

Neil Brooks said:

RonSonic said:

It ALL depends on the personality of the mechanic and for some, just what it is
he's doing. I electro-musical gadgets, not bikes, and I do NOT like to be
watched troubleshooting, diagnosing, repairing. A clean build using all fresh
new parts doesn't bother me - always happy to do a bit of show and tell. That's
different from problem solving which is not always a pretty process and one that
I don't want to begrudge the brain cells that having a watcher will consume.

. . . and that's one of the things I'm /hoping/ I have going for me,
Ron: it's a build, not a fix. Brand new, shiny, clean parts coming
out of bags and boxes and a newly built frame coming from a
manufacturer known for fine craftsmanship. With luck, the 20lb sledge
won't be necessary on day one.

I think what I'm hearing is that this is not an unreasonable request,
that it should /be/ a request, and that it may or may not be granted.
This shop doesn't have their service area walled off with four feet of
reinforced concrete, so that bodes fairly well.

I fully agree with the post that said I would do well to act as a
fixture unless engaged by the wrench. I'd be there to watch, learn,
and to feel as though I was present when my baby was born. I don't
/really/ know s*it from Shinola, so far be it for me to say, "Uh, I
believe Park Tools recommends that you torque that to 200 in-lbs,
buddy!"

I figure, if I'm cool, and if I'm lucky, I'll get a wrench who's into
teaching as he goes, perhaps telling me the pros and cons of the
components that I chose (the /real/ pros and cons--the mechanic's
view).

That actually gets to one of the reasons that as much as I dislike being watched
on a repair I like doing a show for a build. Troubleshooting doesn't have a
procedure so much as a decision tree with lots of options and always some
backtracking etc.. A build is procedural and talking out loud while I work
through that mental checklist just keeps me mindful of all the things I want to
show the customer that I've checked, done, and what and why.

Enjoy.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I disagree completely with the other posters. 25 years ago there was a
small bike shop here in town that had the repair facility right out in
the open and encouraged people to sit, watch and ask questions. It was
just one guy working out of an out building on his property but he
seemed to do good business. He sold parts and used bikes as well. It
was also a cool place to hang out and meet for rides. His wife's job
transferred her to Santa Barbara so that was the end of that.

I not only think you're right, Tom, I put my service department in plain
sight.

--
Andrew Muzi

Andrew: I think this depends entirely upon the type of personalities
employed, as well as that of the owners. I have no problem performing minor
miracles in front of a customer, but no way do I feel comfortable doing
frame alignments or even some of the more dramatic wheel truings when
someone looking over my shoulder. It's just me. I don't even like hearing
loud noises coming from the shop area. Things that you & I know are normal
may not appear so to the customer. You may counter that, the more open the
environment, the more obvious it will be that what's going on is normal.

I think it's great that many shops can have an "open" service department
like that, but for me, I would rather my mechanics are able to work without
distractions and/or concern that they're essentially "on stage" and get
nervous... which may cause mistakes.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

His wife's job

Quoted message said:

transferred her to Santa Barbara so that was the end of that.

Tom

I think that says a lot about the "success" of his business.

Neil Brooks said:

Wednesday is build day.

All the components are in (right foot now squarely in the Campy

camp).

Quoted message said:

The Moots frame shows up at ye olde LBS on Wednesday. I'd like to be
there for build day.

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create

in

Quoted message said:

the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

I take it that, from the shop perspective, there are few pros -- at
least none that couldn't be accomplished if I just showed up at 5pm
before they set up the stem and seat, right?

If so, then how big are the cons, and how unreasonable is the

request?

Quoted message said:

Would you . . . could you . . . let me watch? I like to watch.

Assembling bike components is a pretty simple thing. For that reason,
it doesn't require unbroken concentration, but it's pretty boring to
watch. I don't think you'll learn very much, probably less than
visiting the Park site or browsing a good book. Besides, a watched pot
never boils...

On 03/05/2005 11:28 AM, in article
[email hidden], "Neil Brooks"

Quoted message said:

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

You better hope their favourite "hooch" isn't 60-year-old Macallan Scotch
Whisky.

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [foreword] slash

Steven L. Sheffield said:

On 03/05/2005 11:28 AM, in article
[email hidden], "Neil Brooks"

Quoted message said:

LBS owners, wrenches, countrymen: How much of a tear would I create in
the time-space continuum of bike shops if I asked if I could be there
for (most of, anyway) build day? I'd -- of course -- bring a case of
each the wrench's and the sales guy's favorite hooch.

You better hope their favourite "hooch" isn't 60-year-old Macallan Scotch
Whisky.

How to reconcile my newfound personal bankruptcy with the tremendous
respect that I would feel for their discriminating palates.... ;-)