Only 3 Exercises

Paul Orndorff said:

I'm thinking of doing a hardgainer/back to basics routine to put on some
mass. I want to break my routine into 3 days with 1 day off in between.

Basically only 3 exercises every 6 days. That's supposed to put on
some mass?

Quoted message said:

I was thinking about doing the following:

Day 1: Deadlift (back, legs, traps, etc.)

Day 2: Bench Press (chest, shoulders, triceps, etc.)

Day 3: Barbell Curl (biceps, forarms, etc.)

Bent over rows and/or pull-ups/lat pulldowns would be better here to
cover upper back and biceps.

Quoted message said:

I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
alone. Will I start to look like a freak with big pecs and tiny shoulders if
I do this or should I add some side raises to compliment bench day, and
maybe some shrugs to compliment deadlift day and reverse forearm curls to
compliment barbell curl day?

Add calf raises.

Quoted message said:

Is bench and side raises enough for shoulders or are overhead press an
absolute necessity? I hurt myself doing them a month ago and they are just
too draining to do on bench day.

Your form go bad or something?

Lateral raises will help. I don't feel they are as effective as shoulder
press though.

"Paul "Mr.Wonderful" Orndorff" <PaulMr.Wonderful"[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
alone.

Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk). They'll
work the front of your delts. Will deadlift work the rear?

"Jeff Finlayson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Orndorff said:

I'm thinking of doing a hardgainer/back to basics routine to put on some
mass. I want to break my routine into 3 days with 1 day off in between.

Basically only 3 exercises every 6 days. That's supposed to put on
some mass?

Isn't it quite common to work each muscle group only once a week? I'm not
talking about 1 or 2 sets of each exercise here, more like 6 sets. Some
people do 3 sets of bicep curls, 3 sets of concentration curls etc. wheras I
will be doing 6 sets of barbell curls, letting the muscle group rest for 5
days, then hitting tem again with (hopefully) a heavier weight.

Quoted message said:

David said:

Paul 'Mr.Wonderful' Orndorff' PaulMr.Wonderful said:

I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
alone.

Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk).

Injury risk is high if you do them with too high a weight and deeper
than your flexibility allows. It is important to have good shoulder
flexibility to get a full range of motion. It is also important to
increase weight very slowly and listen to your body.

Your flexibility is irrelevant. Your flexibility may allow you to dip
significantly deeper than you should. Allowing your shoulders to dip
below the level of your elbows is within the danger zone, not so much
because of "flexibility," but because of the position of the shoulder
components, particularly certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.

Using too much weight is not really a problem as long as you gradually
increase the weight to determine what you are capable of doing with
good form.

--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

"JMW" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Injury risk is high if you do them with too high a weight and deeper

than your flexibility allows. It is important to have good shoulder
flexibility to get a full range of motion. It is also important to
increase weight very slowly and listen to your body.

Your flexibility is irrelevant. Your flexibility may allow you to dip
significantly deeper than you should. Allowing your shoulders to dip
below the level of your elbows is within the danger zone, not so much
because of "flexibility," but because of the position of the shoulder
components, particularly certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.

Using too much weight is not really a problem as long as you gradually
increase the weight to determine what you are capable of doing with
good form.

Thanks guys!

David

Quoted message said:

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>"Paul "Mr.Wonderful" Orndorff" <PaulMr.Wonderful"[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
>> alone.
>
>Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
>know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk).

Injury risk is high if you do them with too high a weight and deeper
than your flexibility allows. It is important to have good shoulder
flexibility to get a full range of motion. It is also important to
increase weight very slowly and listen to your body.

Your flexibility is irrelevant.

My flexibility is quite relevant to me thank you.

Quoted message said:

Your flexibility may allow you to dip
significantly deeper than you should.

Quoted message said:

Allowing your shoulders to dip
below the level of your elbows is within the danger zone, not so much
because of "flexibility," but because of the position of the shoulder
components, particularly certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.

I respectfully disagree. If you have the flexibility and strength you
can dip below the level of your shoulder. I know because I do this
regularly. Of course I could not do it before I achieved the
flexibility. I have been doing weighted dips well below the level of
my elbows for several years and have not had any problems. I worked up
to it gradually.

So did I, and I was capable of doing it with quite a lot of weight for
multiple repetitions. Over time, it takes it's toll. I won't bother
explaining the anatomical issues because you probably won't be
deterred, anyway. Just remember that I warned you.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

David said:

"Paul "Mr.Wonderful" Orndorff" <PaulMr.Wonderful"[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
alone.

Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk). They'll
work the front of your delts. Will deadlift work the rear?

Good exercise, if carried out to strict form.

Keep the body upright with legs straight below the torso, and seat
pushed forward, although crossing the ankles is quite permissible.
Keep relaxed and don't dip below 90 degrees at the elbow, and don't
lean forward.

Keep the reps short, 8 - 10 is about right, but don't struggle with
any rep that causes loss of form. And don't sacrifice form simply to
be 'macho' with extra weight.

Like pull-ups/chins, dips are a great exercise, but you do need to be
strict otherwise it is quite easy to cause injury. They are
unfortunately a very 'visible' exercise, and people often do them for
the wrong reasons.

Have a great weekend David - you know I will!!

TFIF!!

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

JMW said:

[email hidden] wrote:
>
> "David" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>"Paul "Mr.Wonderful" Orndorff" <PaulMr.Wonderful"[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
>>> alone.
>>
>>Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
>>know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk).
>
>Injury risk is high if you do them with too high a weight and deeper
>than your flexibility allows. It is important to have good shoulder
>flexibility to get a full range of motion. It is also important to
>increase weight very slowly and listen to your body.

Your flexibility is irrelevant.

My flexibility is quite relevant to me thank you.

Quoted message said:

Your flexibility may allow you to dip
significantly deeper than you should.

Quoted message said:

Allowing your shoulders to dip
below the level of your elbows is within the danger zone, not so much
because of "flexibility," but because of the position of the shoulder
components, particularly certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.

I respectfully disagree. If you have the flexibility and strength you
can dip below the level of your shoulder. I know because I do this
regularly. Of course I could not do it before I achieved the
flexibility. I have been doing weighted dips well below the level of
my elbows for several years and have not had any problems. I worked up
to it gradually.

So did I, and I was capable of doing it with quite a lot of weight for
multiple repetitions. Over time, it takes it's toll. I won't bother
explaining the anatomical issues because you probably won't be
deterred, anyway. Just remember that I warned you.

You would do well to take this advice Paul. Going beyond the 90
degrees serves no useful purpose, and will cause problems as you
wander into later years.

The damage is accumulative in my experience, and I know a lot of
people, including myself, that went for many years doing a full ROM
only to find at some future stage, injuries to the shoulder girdle and
elbow materialised!

Have a great weekend - I always do!! ;o)

TFIF!!

Jeff Finlayson said:

Paul Orndorff said:

I'm thinking of doing a hardgainer/back to basics routine to put on
some mass. I want to break my routine into 3 days with 1 day off in
between.

Basically only 3 exercises every 6 days.

every four days (3+1=4). I would presume he's doing multiple sets. I
agree that rows or pullups/chinups should be used instead of curls, and
along those lines squats instead of deadlifts.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Quoted message said:

Day 1: Deadlift (back, legs, traps, etc.)

Back ?? Not so much the lats...

Quoted message said:

Day 2: Bench Press (chest, shoulders, triceps, etc.)

Do an incline then...that will help with the shoulders. You might also
try dips.

Quoted message said:

Day 3: Barbell Curl (biceps, forarms, etc.)

Do chins instead, you'll then hit the lats too

Quoted message said:

shoulders are in better shape now than they were five years ago. I am
in my fifties now. I am 5'9" 190 pounds and can do deep triples with
70 pounds.

Paul

Awesome, I hit 3 sets of 5 at 95 lbs the other day, of course I am in my
20's 6'2" 180lbs.

That is definatly my max, the last rep of every set was going up so
verrry slow, but they went up. I am taking a break from them, cause it
is such a pain in the ass to carry all those weights over to that end of
the gym, and then I have to trade in my weight belt at the desk for the
dip belt and then trade back if I need the other belt. Then I feel like
a show off, because the dip station is next to the girlie rack of
dumbells that goes up to 25 lbs. All the girls sit over there and do
thier dumbell routines, I can just imagine what they think while I grunt
out reps with two plates clanging together.

Now I am concentrating on my weak military press.

Some

Quoted message said:

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 23:23:19 -0500, JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:

>[email hidden] wrote:
>>
>> "David" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Paul "Mr.Wonderful" Orndorff" <PaulMr.Wonderful"[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm most concerened about shoulders not getting enough work with bench press
>>>> alone.
>>>
>>>Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
>>>know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk).
>>
>>Injury risk is high if you do them with too high a weight and deeper
>>than your flexibility allows. It is important to have good shoulder
>>flexibility to get a full range of motion. It is also important to
>>increase weight very slowly and listen to your body.
>
>Your flexibility is irrelevant.

My flexibility is quite relevant to me thank you.

> Your flexibility may allow you to dip
>significantly deeper than you should.

> Allowing your shoulders to dip
>below the level of your elbows is within the danger zone, not so much
>because of "flexibility," but because of the position of the shoulder
>components, particularly certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.

I respectfully disagree. If you have the flexibility and strength you
can dip below the level of your shoulder. I know because I do this
regularly. Of course I could not do it before I achieved the
flexibility. I have been doing weighted dips well below the level of
my elbows for several years and have not had any problems. I worked up
to it gradually.

So did I, and I was capable of doing it with quite a lot of weight for
multiple repetitions. Over time, it takes it's toll.

I've been doing weighted dips for several years. Initially I used one
of those gravitron devices since I was not strong enough to do dips
with my body weight. I also worked on developing good shoulder
flexibility. I added weight very slowly. Over time my shoulders have
developed excellent flexibility and good strength. I believe that my
shoulders are in better shape now than they were five years ago. I am
in my fifties now. I am 5'9" 190 pounds and can do deep triples with
70 pounds.

At approximately the same body weight, I was doing triples or more
with twice that weight, going as deep as my flexibility would allow,
which was shoulders well below elbows. The rotator cuff damage was
not acute, but quite gradual. By the time you recognize the problem,
it will be too late to do much about it.

And FWIW, I'm less than two years short of fifty.

You do as you wish. I post this response so others are aware of the
risks. It took me more than a year to recover from the damage and
return to the same weights I was using, and I still need to be
careful. I would prefer that others not learn the hard way.
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Awesome, I hit 3 sets of 5 at 95 lbs the other day, of course I am in my
20's 6'2" 180lbs.

How deep do you go?

I go just to shoulders parallel with elbows. I don't have some big
warning about going deepper than that, I suppose as long as you do what
your body allows and increase weight slowly you should be fine.

I have never had shoulder problems from dips, sometimes elbow problems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is definatly my max, the last rep of every set was going up so
verrry slow, but they went up.

I never do deep dips to close to failure. I am sure I could do at
least two more reps. I just try to progressively increase the weight
while avoiding coming close to failure. This approach as enabled me to
make slow consistent gains and avoid injury.

I won't go any closer to failure than that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now I am concentrating on my weak military press.

I recently switched from barbells to dumbbells on the military press.
I just got back from the gym and did a personal best 3 reps with 75
pound dumbbells. Again I am sure I could have squeezed out at least
another and possibly two reps but my objective is to maximize gains
while minimizing injury.

Thats pretty dank, today was max day, I got 3 sets of 5 with 50's on
Standing Arnold Press. My form was so-so, so I am not going to increase
weight.

I just want to press my body weight on a barbell while standing, but
that seems like it is years and years away.

--Falooley

DZ said:

JMW said:

Quoted message said:

JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
>[email hidden] wrote:
>>JMW <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>Allowing your shoulders to dip below the level of your elbows is
>>>within the danger zone, not so much because of "flexibility," but
>>>because of the position of the shoulder components, particularly
>>>certain rotator cuff muscles and tendons.
>>
>>I respectfully disagree. If you have the flexibility and strength you
>>can dip below the level of your shoulder. I know because I do this
>>regularly. Of course I could not do it before I achieved the
>>flexibility. I have been doing weighted dips well below the level of
>>my elbows for several years and have not had any problems. I worked up
>>to it gradually.
>
>So did I, and I was capable of doing it with quite a lot of weight for
>multiple repetitions. Over time, it takes it's toll.

I've been doing weighted dips for several years. Initially I used one
of those gravitron devices since I was not strong enough to do dips
with my body weight. I also worked on developing good shoulder
flexibility. I added weight very slowly. Over time my shoulders have
developed excellent flexibility and good strength. I believe that my
shoulders are in better shape now than they were five years ago. I am
in my fifties now. I am 5'9" 190 pounds and can do deep triples with
70 pounds.

At approximately the same body weight, I was doing triples or more
with twice that weight, going as deep as my flexibility would allow,
which was shoulders well below elbows. The rotator cuff damage was
not acute, but quite gradual. By the time you recognize the problem,
it will be too late to do much about it.

And FWIW, I'm less than two years short of fifty.

You do as you wish. I post this response so others are aware of the
risks. It took me more than a year to recover from the damage and
return to the same weights I was using, and I still need to be
careful. I would prefer that others not learn the hard way.

I've seen your warning before and keep that in mind while doing
dips. I had no injuries so far and like to keep it that way.

Maybe Paul has especially strong joints and going deep will not be a
problem for him.

The "strength" of the joints is not really the issue I'm raising. My
concern is the ergonomics of the movement from certain positions. A
brief study of the cause and effect of subacromial impingement might
be a good place for Paul to start, then applying that knowledge to the
force and mechanics needed to bring him "out of the hole" on the
concentric.

Quoted message said:

But I don't really understand the idea that improved
flexibility can prevent damage resulting from bad form or from
dangerous exercises. If I'm not mistaken some kettlebellists believe
that idea too.

<gasp> The Party has declared you a subversive. Comrade Pavel will
have you smelting kettlebell iron in the gulag!
--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

"gman99" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Day 1: Deadlift (back, legs, traps, etc.)

Back ?? Not so much the lats...

I've abandoned the concept and I'm going back to my every other day full
body routine. But my upper back and traps both get doms after deadlift days.
You're saying it doesn't work back?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Day 2: Bench Press (chest, shoulders, triceps, etc.)

Do an incline then...that will help with the shoulders. You might also
try dips.

Quoted message said:

Day 3: Barbell Curl (biceps, forarms, etc.)

Do chins instead, you'll then hit the lats too

That idea didn't last long 🙁 now no one will know how many licks it
took you to get to the center of the tootsie roll pop.

On the subject of weighted dips, if there's no benefit in going beyond
the 90 degree point, why court danger and do it anyway? When you look
at it in this light, its irrelevant whether it's dangerous or not. No
benefit, to me at least, should mean no risk, but then again I believe
in incentives.

Quoted message said:

I've abandoned the concept and I'm going back to my every other day

full

Quoted message said:

body routine. But my upper back and traps both get doms after

deadlift days.

Quoted message said:

You're saying it doesn't work back?

Not the lats.

"Charles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk). They'll
work the front of your delts. Will deadlift work the rear?

Good exercise, if carried out to strict form.

Keep the body upright with legs straight below the torso,

I lowered the weight and focused on that today. I think I would typically lean in
a little. Before I was a gym member, I would do 35 unweighted dips in my home
workout (as many as 45 if very motivated, not sure anything could motivate dip #46).
Since joining a gym a couple of years ago I would add weight to bring the reps down.

For most exercises I keep the reps lower, but with dips I had been doing 125-135lbs (depending
where in my workout) and 6-8 reps. Today I added 90lbs, didn't lean forward, and did 10. So
I'll try 115lbs next time.

David said:

"Charles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would you want to do weighted dips? I like 'em and am curious to
know what other think (especially with respect to injury risk). They'll
work the front of your delts. Will deadlift work the rear?

Good exercise, if carried out to strict form.

Keep the body upright with legs straight below the torso,

I lowered the weight and focused on that today. I think I would typically lean in
a little. Before I was a gym member, I would do 35 unweighted dips in my home
workout (as many as 45 if very motivated, not sure anything could motivate dip #46).
Since joining a gym a couple of years ago I would add weight to bring the reps down.

For most exercises I keep the reps lower, but with dips I had been doing 125-135lbs (depending
where in my workout) and 6-8 reps. Today I added 90lbs, didn't lean forward, and did 10. So
I'll try 115lbs next time.

Good form makes this exercise really worthwhile, and with pull-ups is
one of my favourites.

Un-weighted dips for a reasonably strong and athletic person, really
present no sort of challenge, and there is always the danger of doing
them too quickly and introducing the 'bounce' factor!!

Introducing additional weight and doing them in short sets, is much
more beneficial and allows steady progress. The concentric phase of
the exercise is as important as the eccentric. Dipping to just below
the 90 degrees is about right