Dahon bikes - any comments?

Epetruk said:

I've been thinking of buying a folder for a while now (for commuting and
short rides). I originally wanted to get a Brompton L6, but price
constraints have turned my eye towards either the Dahon Espresso (which
appears to be a foldable mountain bike) or the Dahon Vitesse D3.

First up, back to the Brom: the L3 is actually all you'll need most
places. The 6 is a better "do everything" machine, for obvious
reasons, but for just commutes and wee trundles it is enough and
will save you a worthwhile amount.

Quoted message said:

How quick are they to fold?

Dahons usually just fold in two (the Brom effectively folds in 3),
so it shouldn't take too long, though the Brom's 15 seconds without
trying hard is still class leading.

Quoted message said:

How easy is it to get replacements - would I, for example have to buy a
custom parts to replace parts that wore out?

Only if you wear out the frame or the hinge, neither terribly
likely. The wheels are just normal sheels, the transmission isn't
anything bespoke, etc. etc. Seatpots, as on most small wheelers,
tend to be longer but folders aren't typically mines of weird parts.

Quoted message said:

What advantages/disadvantages would you say they have over a Brompton L6?

Cheaper.
The Espresso will be a better general purpose steed on the road but
OTOH will hardly give you the sort of fold that allows you to pop
it in the back of a car without much thought, or between seats on a
train, or behind a door at home or in the pub.
On the Vitesse, 20" wheels give a bit less rolling resistance and
cope better on rough stuff. The Brom's rear suspension does help a
bit, but it doesn't help the front wheel over obstacles. The
Vitesse comes with a rack as standard and the Brom L doesn't.

DAhons have a solid reputation as good value engineering, but the
Brom is just in a different class /if/ a really compact fold is
going to be very useful to you.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:46:41 -0000 someone who may be "Epetruk"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

What advantages/disadvantages would you say they have over a Brompton L6?

Have you looked at the A to B Magazine web site?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

Peter,

Thank you for the time and trouble you've taken to reply.

Quoted message said:

First up, back to the Brom: the L3 is actually all you'll need most
places. The 6 is a better "do everything" machine, for obvious
reasons, but for just commutes and wee trundles it is enough and
will save you a worthwhile amount.

Actually, now you mention it, I probably don't need as many gears as the L6
offers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How quick are they to fold?

Dahons usually just fold in two (the Brom effectively folds in 3),
so it shouldn't take too long, though the Brom's 15 seconds without
trying hard is still class leading.

That's odd - shouldn't fewer folds mean less time spent?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How easy is it to get replacements - would I, for example have to
buy a custom parts to replace parts that wore out?

Only if you wear out the frame or the hinge, neither terribly
likely. The wheels are just normal sheels, the transmission isn't
anything bespoke, etc. etc. Seatpots, as on most small wheelers,
tend to be longer but folders aren't typically mines of weird parts.

Does what you've said here apply also to Bromptons? I checked Brompton's
website, and it does seem as if quite a few of the components are custom.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What advantages/disadvantages would you say they have over a
Brompton L6?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

DAhons have a solid reputation as good value engineering, but the
Brom is just in a different class /if/ a really compact fold is
going to be very useful to you.

For me, this is the clincher - I checked the size of both bikes folded, and
truly the Brompton is in a class of its own.

One question, though - is it possible to buy the C3 and then just get
mudguards only fitted on? I don't need all the extra stuff that comes with
the L3.

Thanks again,

--
Akin

aknak at aksoto dot idps dot co dot uk

Epetruk said:

That's odd - shouldn't fewer folds mean less time spent?

It's not quite the simple. On the Brom, the first thing you do is swing
the back wheel under the frame, and this takes effectively zero time
/and/ parks and stabilises the bike to make the next bit easier (no
fiddling about holding stuff steady with the other pair of hands you
don't have).

Quoted message said:

Does what you've said here apply also to Bromptons? I checked Brompton's
website, and it does seem as if quite a few of the components are custom.

The running gear is basically standard, though for differing values of
"standard"... 16" wheels /are/ a standard, but your LBS stands a good
chance of not stocking serious rims for them, or decent tyres, but that
doesn't mean they don't exist. Similarly, the front hub is narrower
than most, but not to the extent of it being a Brompton bespoke part.
The chain tensioner isn't to be found elsewhere, but OTOH there's no
particular reason it should get destroyed in routine use. The rear hub
is a fairly standard SRAM, and they're now re-introducing fairly
standard Sturmeys back so they're not dependent on a single supplier. I
can't remember if the brakes are Brom specific, but the pads certainly
aren't.
In any case, I have yet to hear anyone complaining that running a Brom
is a nightmare because they can never find parts.

Quoted message said:

For me, this is the clincher - I checked the size of both bikes folded,and
truly the Brompton is in a class of its own.

The new Mezzo looks like it may be in the same league, but I've yet to
see a full report on one. Same sort of price as a Brom though, in any
case. http://www.mezzobikes.com/ though it wants some stoopid plug in
<spit>.

Quoted message said:

One question, though - is it possible to buy the C3 and then just get
mudguards only fitted on? I don't need all the extra stuff that comes with
the L3.

The "extra stuff", aside from mudguards, is basically a better standard
of componentry. It may not be essential, but in the long run I think it
will pay for itself and it will certainly make the bike better in use.
My own feeling is that the C is a false economy /if/ you can stretch the
purse strings far enough for an L (but if you can't the C is still a
sound piece of kit).

If you're getting an L I'd think hard about an extra £9 for a gearing
reduction, as IMHO the standard is a bit on the high side. I live in a
hilly town so have the -18%, but I think I'd be inclined to take the
-12% in any case. Bromptons are /not/ an ideal vehicle to honk up hills
out of the saddle!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

It's not quite the simple. On the Brom, the first thing you do is swing
the back wheel under the frame, and this takes effectively zero time
/and/ parks and stabilises the bike to make the next bit easier (no
fiddling about holding stuff steady with the other pair of hands you
don't have).

Probably the most underrated part of the Brompton is that first fold
that allows it to stand on its own. Its much more useful than just as
part of the folding sequence. I use it all the time to park the bike
while doing things such as putting my gloves on, waiting for a train,
parking it just inside the shop door while I shop etc etc.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Probably the most underrated part of the Brompton is that first fold
that allows it to stand on its own. Its much more useful than just as
part of the folding sequence. I use it all the time to park the bike

Indeedy, think of it as an integral prop stand which is quicker and
easier to use than a prop stand, takes up no space on the bike and when
used simultaneously shortens the bike so it takes up less parking space
/and/ blows the mind of onlookers!

Someone was touting some clip to stop the back folding naturally with
gravity when the bike is picked up, but it just struck me as a device to
waste your time unnecessarily...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Someone was touting some clip to stop the back folding naturally with
gravity when the bike is picked up, but it just struck me as a device to
waste your time unnecessarily...

That's a mezzobike, innit? Brompton with a clip?

I thought the folding video was very good on the web site. Definitely worth
considering when I look for a folder.

...d

David Martin said:

That's a mezzobike, innit? Brompton with a clip?

Someone was saying how they used a clip on their Brom, specificially.
Go out of your way to make your life more awkward, me no understandee...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

David Martin said:

That's a mezzobike, innit? Brompton with a clip?

Someone was saying how they used a clip on their Brom, specificially.
Go out of your way to make your life more awkward, me no
understandee...

Can't see the point myself.

Been to the Mezzo website - I have to say that the folding does look very
fiddly, but perhaps with practice it isn't such a big deal.

Are there any good videos showing how a Brompton folds, just like the one on
the Mezzo website?

--
Akin

aknak at aksoto dot idps dot co dot uk

Epetruk said:

Been to the Mezzo website - I have to say that the folding does look very
fiddly, but perhaps with practice it isn't such a big deal.

Are there any good videos showing how a Brompton folds, just like the one on
the Mezzo website?

It's not a proper video, just a multi-frame image showing the stages,
but http://kinetics.org.uk/html/brompton.shtml will show you the stages.

Having watched the Mezzo vid I'd say it's all done rather slowly as a
demo there, and though I'd think it /will/ be slower than a Brom, a Brom
only takes 15 seconds (if you're not in a hurry, you can do it quicker,
especially unfolding if you practise the "express" method) so after a
few goes a Mezzo won't exactly be taking large chunks out of your day.

I wouldn't mind a look at a Mezzo, but no Scottish dealers as yet.
Certainly looks viable as a Brom alternative on first look though, but
it's not like you're saving money with one :-( Another place where the
Brom scores is its already well tuned pannier system, which works
superbly well and mounts and dismounts as easily as you could hope for,
and the Mezzo doesn't seem old enough for this sort of thing to have
been sorted yet.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Someone was touting some clip to stop the back folding
naturally with gravity when the bike is picked up, but it just
struck me as a device to waste your time unnecessarily...

Maybe the clip this person was touting was similar to the one I mentioned a
few weeks ago in the context of preventing the rear end from folding
unbidden.

http://home.tiscali.be/zweistein/brompton/pictures/josh_fold_stopper.jpg

Quoted message said:

Someone was saying how they used a clip on their Brom,
specificially. Go out of your way to make your life more
awkward, me no understandee...

The clip adds about half a second to the time required to fold the rear
end, and needn't be engaged at all if not required. It gives you the choice
of whether you want the rear end to fold under automatically when lifted,
or only when the clip is released. I've found it useful when lifting the
bike over obstacles with a load on the rear rack, for example. Someone else
mentioned a tendency for the rear end to fold unbidden when the front rack
is laden.

When I used to read the Yahoo Bromtoneering group, I read a few accounts of
spontaneous folding when riding rough surfaces. I don't think my front
brake is strong enough to precipitate rear wheel lift, but the clip was
also mentioned in that context.

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

Someone else
mentioned a tendency for the rear end to fold unbidden when the front rack
is laden.

Never noticed this myself, and having an L rather than a T often have
the front laden but not the rear.

Quoted message said:

When I used to read the Yahoo Bromtoneering group, I read a few accounts of
spontaneous folding when riding rough surfaces.

I have done that, but the "rough surface" was a ditch and I think I'd
have been unceremoniously dumped over the bars whether or not I'd had
the rear clipped into place...

Quoted message said:

I don't think my front
brake is strong enough to precipitate rear wheel lift, but the clip was
also mentioned in that context.

It is if you deliberately engineer a stop to park the wheel. A friend
can deftly stop, dismount and fold the rear wheel all in one (though I
can't!).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Someone was touting some clip to stop the back folding naturally with
gravity when the bike is picked up, but it just struck me as a device to
waste your time unnecessarily...

I have one of those and jolly useful it is too when its jolly useful.
Most of the time it isn't and sits quietly out of the way but when it is
its indispensable.

Tony

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think my front brake is strong enough to precipitate
rear wheel lift, but the clip was also mentioned in that context.

Peter Clinch said:

It is if you deliberately engineer a stop to park the wheel.

It will be regardless, just as soon as I can make up my mind between
V-brakes and Magurae.

James Thomson

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Martin said:

That's a mezzobike, innit? Brompton with a clip?

Someone was saying how they used a clip on their Brom, specificially. Go
out of your way to make your life more awkward, me no understandee...

I was somewhat inconvenienced by the fact that with a bag strapped to the
rack, the back wheel on a Brompton will happily pivot up when braking.
Combined with a steering motion that will happily pitch the rider over the
bars, so I foolishly broke my fall with my hands, and broke my wrist as a
result. I'd go with the clip, even if I was riding foolishly in that
particular instance.

A