Real High Intensity Training?

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:51:05 -0600, [email hidden]

(Hobbes) said:

From

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9139179

------------

Metabolic profile of high intensity intermittent exercises.

Tabata I, Irisawa K, Kouzaki M, Nishimura K, Ogita F, Miyachi M.

Department of Physiology and Biomechanics, National Institute of Fitness
and Sports, Kanoya City, Japan. [email hidden]

To evaluate the magnitude of the stress on the aerobic and the anaerobic
energy release systems during high intensity bicycle training, two
commonly used protocols (IE1 and IE2) were examined during bicycling. IE1
consisted of one set of 6-7 bouts of 20-s exercise at an intensity of
approximately 170% of the subject's maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) with a
10-s rest between each bout. IE2 involved one set of 4-5 bouts of 30-s
exercise at an intensity of approximately 200% of the subject's VO2max and
a 2-min rest between each bout. The accumulated oxygen deficit of IE1 (69
+/- 8 ml.kg-1, mean +/- SD) was significantly higher than that of IE2 (46
+/- 12 ml.kg-1, N = 9, p < 0.01). The accumulated oxygen deficit of IE1
was not significantly different from the maximal accumulated oxygen
deficit (the anaerobic capacity) of the subjects (69 +/- 10 ml.kg-1),
whereas the corresponding value for IE2 was less than the subjects'
maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (P < 0.01). The peak oxygen uptake
during the last 10 s of the IE1 (55 +/- 6 ml.kg-1.min-1) was not
significantly less than the VO2max of the subjects (57 +/- 6
ml.kg-1.min-1). The peak oxygen uptake during the last 10 s of IE2 (47 +/-
8 ml.kg-1.min-1) was lower than the VO2max (P < 0.01). In conclusion, this
study showed that intermittent exercise defined by the IE1 protocol may
tax both the anaerobic and aerobic energy releasing systems almost
maximally.

------------

Note the last line. The so-called 'Tabata interval' has also been tested
against other training programs (ie. aerobic conditioning) and has shown
great results.

Now, this isn't to suggest this interval is the be all and end all of
training, but those people who have espoused HIT may want to consider this
type of training.

20 seconds of reps is a set. 10 seconds of rest. Then do another 7 sets,
each with 10 seconds of rest. This could be done with virtually any
exercise, although I suspect compound full body movement would also be a
key. I believe both Furey's Combat Conditioning and Pavel's Naked Warrior
exercises would adapt well to this program. BTW - Dan John mentions it on
his site and suggests it would work well with Pavel, so I think this has
been done and it is not my original idea.

4 minutes of training. Say you chose 3 exercises, included a couple of
minutes between exercises. In 20 minutes you got yourself a workout that
could lay just about anyone flat. Beats cardio all to hell, IMO.

OH squats with a broomstick or light bar. Hindu push-up. Swings with
dumbbell or kettlebell. Bridge between exercises. It'll either kill me or
get me in shape for rugby.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/search.php?searchid=151747

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

[email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote in news:khobman800-
2502051051050001@localhost:

Quoted message said:

20 seconds of reps is a set. 10 seconds of rest. Then do another 7 sets,
each with 10 seconds of rest. This could be done with virtually any
exercise, although I suspect compound full body movement would also be a
key. I believe both Furey's Combat Conditioning and Pavel's Naked Warrior
exercises would adapt well to this program. BTW - Dan John mentions it on
his site and suggests it would work well with Pavel, so I think this has
been done and it is not my original idea.

4 minutes of training. Say you chose 3 exercises, included a couple of
minutes between exercises. In 20 minutes you got yourself a workout that
could lay just about anyone flat. Beats cardio all to hell, IMO.

OH squats with a broomstick or light bar. Hindu push-up. Swings with
dumbbell or kettlebell. Bridge between exercises. It'll either kill me or
get me in shape for rugby.

I've done this with sprints and with rowing and they both simulate a near-
death experience quite nicely.

I'm not sure how to get the same intensity with exercises, though. OHH or DB
swings, for example, just don't exhaust me fast enough to get the same kind
of stress into 20 seconds. Think I'm just a pansy or is there something I'm
missing?

Hugh

--
Run like hell and let the clowns deal with the bull.

"Hugh Beyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

T <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

[email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote in news:khobman800-
2502051051050001@localhost:

>20 seconds of reps is a set. 10 seconds of rest. Then do another 7
>sets, each with 10 seconds of rest. This could be done with virtually
>any exercise, although I suspect compound full body movement would also
>be a key. I believe both Furey's Combat Conditioning and Pavel's Naked
>Warrior exercises would adapt well to this program. BTW - Dan John
>mentions it on his site and suggests it would work well with Pavel, so
>I think this has been done and it is not my original idea.
>
>4 minutes of training. Say you chose 3 exercises, included a couple of
>minutes between exercises. In 20 minutes you got yourself a workout
>that could lay just about anyone flat. Beats cardio all to hell, IMO.
>
>OH squats with a broomstick or light bar. Hindu push-up. Swings with
>dumbbell or kettlebell. Bridge between exercises. It'll either kill me
>or get me in shape for rugby.
>

I've done this with sprints and with rowing and they both simulate a
near- death experience quite nicely.

I'm not sure how to get the same intensity with exercises, though. OHH

[That's overhead squats, there]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or DB swings, for example, just don't exhaust me fast enough to get the
same kind of stress into 20 seconds. Think I'm just a pansy or is there
something I'm missing?

Hugh

How many reps can you do in 20 seconds? How heavy?

Problem is just getting down and up fast enough to push the limits and I
feel that adding weights has limited value--adding them to squats just
gets me to muscular failure and adding them to swings is hard on the
joints and adding them to hindu pushups is hard. Maybe my imagination is
limited.

Squats should be doable - and doing squats with an empty bar or a little bit
on the bar won't really get you to muscular failure all that fast, but it
will add quite a bit to your power numbers.

Rough guess - KH's target will be 650+-50W, so one full squat per second
with thirty kilos would be about on target (making assumptions about how far
KH squats as 60cm, and how much of his weight actually moves that far as
80kg). That's certainly not impossibly fast, and 30 kilos isn't heavy even
for an endurance weenie like me.

Swings might be doable, though I'm not sure I'd want to risk squashing my
nuts on the way down when tired.

Pushups - well, if you have really strong arms, maybe. Then, my bench press
is less than my bodyweight, so I've probably got a skewed idea of strong.

Peter

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Here's a very interesting interview where Dan John mentions Tabata
Front Squats and Tabata Thrusters, both make excellent workouts

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=528032&pageNo=0

Great link, and answers my questions. I'll have to try this...

Hugh

--
Run like hell and let the clowns deal with the bull.

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh Beyer

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote in news:khobman800-
2502051051050001@localhost:

Quoted message said:

20 seconds of reps is a set. 10 seconds of rest. Then do another 7 sets,
each with 10 seconds of rest. This could be done with virtually any
exercise, although I suspect compound full body movement would also be a
key. I believe both Furey's Combat Conditioning and Pavel's Naked Warrior
exercises would adapt well to this program. BTW - Dan John mentions it on
his site and suggests it would work well with Pavel, so I think this has
been done and it is not my original idea.

4 minutes of training. Say you chose 3 exercises, included a couple of
minutes between exercises. In 20 minutes you got yourself a workout that
could lay just about anyone flat. Beats cardio all to hell, IMO.

OH squats with a broomstick or light bar. Hindu push-up. Swings with
dumbbell or kettlebell. Bridge between exercises. It'll either kill me or
get me in shape for rugby.

I've done this with sprints and with rowing and they both simulate a near-
death experience quite nicely.

I'm not sure how to get the same intensity with exercises, though. OHH or DB
swings, for example, just don't exhaust me fast enough to get the same kind
of stress into 20 seconds. Think I'm just a pansy or is there something I'm
missing?

Good Lord - sprints! Near death for sure.

I think the goals is 170% O2 uptake or something. Sprints would be a
little much.

--
Keith

So, in short, does this study suggest that doing interval training with
shorter rest times (and with a slightly less intense sprint) is a
better cardio workout? Which then I imagine would also be better for
fat burning?

In article <[email hidden]>,

JahMic said:

So, in short, does this study suggest that doing interval training with
shorter rest times (and with a slightly less intense sprint) is a
better cardio workout? Which then I imagine would also be better for
fat burning?

Your going to have to define what makes a better cardio workout.

But even then, I think the point is efficiency for combination aerobic and
anaerobic effect based on key blood markers.

--
Keith

JahMic said:

So, in short, does this study suggest that doing interval training
with shorter rest times (and with a slightly less intense sprint) is
a better cardio workout? Which then I imagine would also be better
for fat burning?

Actually, the sprints are supposed to be at 170% of V02 max. Run as
hard as you can and you should be just about right.

My personal experience is that Tabata Interval drills are excellent
for both fat burning and for general conditioning. For several years
I have jogged a course of approximately 2 miles (with a nice hill in
the middle) several times a week. My test for the Tabata sprints was
to replace my normal jogging with sprints for two months and see what
it did for my times on my normal jogging route. After two months of
sprints I set several PRs in my route. I could easily tell the
difference.

The downside is that the sprints are fairly brutal (and the front
squats are ridiculous). With normal cardio if you aren't feeling very
well it is easy to find a pace that isn't terribly taxing. With
sprints even less than all out efforts leave me fairly wasted by the
time I do eight. Of course, that's also the upside to these
workouts. You never wonder if you've worked out hard enough after
doing a round of Tabata Front Squats.

Try 'em out
Jason

[email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh Beyer

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote in news:khobman800-
2502051051050001@localhost:

Quoted message said:

20 seconds of reps is a set. 10 seconds of rest. Then do another 7
sets, each with 10 seconds of rest. This could be done with virtually
any exercise, although I suspect compound full body movement would
also be a key. I believe both Furey's Combat Conditioning and Pavel's
Naked Warrior exercises would adapt well to this program. BTW - Dan
John mentions it on his site and suggests it would work well with
Pavel, so I think this has been done and it is not my original idea.

4 minutes of training. Say you chose 3 exercises, included a couple
of minutes between exercises. In 20 minutes you got yourself a
workout that could lay just about anyone flat. Beats cardio all to
hell, IMO.

OH squats with a broomstick or light bar. Hindu push-up. Swings with
dumbbell or kettlebell. Bridge between exercises. It'll either kill
me or get me in shape for rugby.

I've done this with sprints and with rowing and they both simulate a
near- death experience quite nicely.

I'm not sure how to get the same intensity with exercises, though. OHH
or DB swings, for example, just don't exhaust me fast enough to get the
same kind of stress into 20 seconds. Think I'm just a pansy or is there
something I'm missing?

Good Lord - sprints! Near death for sure.

I think the goals is 170% O2 uptake or something. Sprints would be a
little much.

Sprints were painful, fer shure. I don't think I kept quite the same
intensity up through all 8 sets either.

Just came back from doing this with DB "thrusters" per Dan John and I take
back what I said about not being able to get enough intensity with weight
exercises. Most of the focus on quads, shoulders and tris--I was getting
towards failure on the arms in the last sets.

I'm wondering about doing these with DB clean & press. Might be more
balaned between back and front, pull and push.

Hugh

--
Run like hell and let the clowns deal with the bull.

Hugh Beyer said:

Sprints were painful, fer shure. I don't think I kept quite the same
intensity up through all 8 sets either.

Just came back from doing this with DB "thrusters" per Dan John and
I take back what I said about not being able to get enough intensity
with weight exercises. Most of the focus on quads, shoulders and
tris--I was getting towards failure on the arms in the last sets.

I'm wondering about doing these with DB clean & press. Might be more
balaned between back and front, pull and push.

Hugh

That's an interesting idea. I personally don't think that my arms
could take the punishment, but I am still more than a bit of a
beginner. When I do thrusters I use so little weight that I could
grab dumbbells off the rack where all the weights are painted neon
pink 🙂.

For right now I am happy enough with a session of Tabata Front Squats
once every two weeks, and a set or two of sprints every week
(depending on whether I do the squats that week). Both of these
exercises seem to help me lower my time in my two mile route (which is
one of my indicators for my level of fitness). I don't think that I
could do much more than that and still be excited about my cardio
days.

I am a true believer in the idea behind the workout, though. My body
responds really well to interval-type work. I have been very happy
with the results, and there is no denying that you feel like you have
been working hard.

Jason

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

Sprints were painful, fer shure. I don't think I kept quite the same
intensity up through all 8 sets either.

Just came back from doing this with DB "thrusters" per Dan John and
I take back what I said about not being able to get enough intensity
with weight exercises. Most of the focus on quads, shoulders and
tris--I was getting towards failure on the arms in the last sets.

I'm wondering about doing these with DB clean & press. Might be more
balaned between back and front, pull and push.

Hugh

That's an interesting idea. I personally don't think that my arms
could take the punishment, but I am still more than a bit of a
beginner. When I do thrusters I use so little weight that I could
grab dumbbells off the rack where all the weights are painted neon
pink 🙂.

For right now I am happy enough with a session of Tabata Front Squats
once every two weeks, and a set or two of sprints every week
(depending on whether I do the squats that week). Both of these
exercises seem to help me lower my time in my two mile route (which is
one of my indicators for my level of fitness). I don't think that I
could do much more than that and still be excited about my cardio
days.

I am a true believer in the idea behind the workout, though. My body
responds really well to interval-type work. I have been very happy
with the results, and there is no denying that you feel like you have
been working hard.

Jason

Anybody else been doing these?

I did them once with 15# DBs, started at 15 reps per interval and degraded
down to 8, then rolled on the floor crying in pain for 15 minutes and was
sore for 5 days.

Did them again two weeks later with similar results, maybe a little less
painful.

Did them again a week later (Saturday), but this time instead of going
absolutely all out on the first few intervals I paced myself at 12
reps/interval. Made 12 reps in all 8 intervals, spent 10 minutes gasping
like a trout, and haven't been sore at all since.

So... is it better to pace yourself at an intensity you can sustain, or to
go all out on the first intervals? Have I taken away any advantage in
doing intervals by pacing myself this way? If it doesn't hurt, it's not
doing you any good, right? :-p

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

Hugh Beyer said:

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

Sprints were painful, fer shure. I don't think I kept quite the
same intensity up through all 8 sets either.

Just came back from doing this with DB "thrusters" per Dan John
and I take back what I said about not being able to get enough
intensity with weight exercises. Most of the focus on quads,
shoulders and tris--I was getting towards failure on the arms in
the last sets.

I'm wondering about doing these with DB clean & press. Might be
more balaned between back and front, pull and push.

Hugh

That's an interesting idea. I personally don't think that my arms
could take the punishment, but I am still more than a bit of a
beginner. When I do thrusters I use so little weight that I could
grab dumbbells off the rack where all the weights are painted neon
pink 🙂.

For right now I am happy enough with a session of Tabata Front
Squats once every two weeks, and a set or two of sprints every week
(depending on whether I do the squats that week). Both of these
exercises seem to help me lower my time in my two mile route (which
is one of my indicators for my level of fitness). I don't think
that I could do much more than that and still be excited about my
cardio days.

I am a true believer in the idea behind the workout, though. My
body responds really well to interval-type work. I have been very
happy with the results, and there is no denying that you feel like
you have been working hard.

Jason

Anybody else been doing these?

I did them once with 15# DBs, started at 15 reps per interval and
degraded down to 8, then rolled on the floor crying in pain for 15
minutes and was sore for 5 days.

Hmm... That sounds very familiar. Except I started with sets of 12
and degraded to 6 (I was able to maintain at least 8 reps until the
last set). I was noticeably sore for nearly six days.

Quoted message said:

Did them again two weeks later with similar results, maybe a little
less painful.

I wasn't as sore as long when I tried them again two weeks later, but
I didn't add a single rep. I was only sore until the next day.

Quoted message said:

Did them again a week later (Saturday), but this time instead of
going absolutely all out on the first few intervals I paced myself
at 12 reps/interval. Made 12 reps in all 8 intervals, spent 10
minutes gasping like a trout, and haven't been sore at all since.

So... is it better to pace yourself at an intensity you can sustain,
or to go all out on the first intervals? Have I taken away any
advantage in doing intervals by pacing myself this way? If it
doesn't hurt, it's not doing you any good, right? :-p

It's pretty hard to "pace yourself" when you are talking about a 4
minute workout. I found that if I counted up the total reps they
didn't vary much between the times when I simply tried to do as many
as possible every set and the times that I tried to "pace myself". At
least that was the case after my body got over the initial shock of
having to do Tabata Thrusters at all.

Currently, when I can do eights sets of at least 8 with my current
weight I graduate to higher weights, but that's primarily due to the
fact that I tend to emphasize strength in whatever exercises I do
(even my cardio workouts are slanted that direction).

Jason

Hugh Beyer said:

So... is it better to pace yourself at an intensity you can sustain, or to
go all out on the first intervals?

Depends on what you're trying to achieve, but I'd argue that if you are
aiming to train at a high level of intensity, then just do the first few
intervals (all out) and stop when you can't maintain power output -- or
if you want to operate at a slightly lower intensity, then do so from the
beginning (by, as you put it, "pacing yourself"😉

So my philosophy is, decide what level of intensity you want to perform the
workout at, and keep going until you can't maintain it.

Quoted message said:

Have I taken away any advantage in
doing intervals by pacing myself this way?

Well, you don't get to set an effort record on every set. There's a reason
that you don't see powerlifters doing sets to failure and following those
up with dropsets (to failure). Mentzer/Jones/Darden training isn't so much
"high intensity" as it is "high effort level". The problem is that pushing
outside the goal intensity (not effort) range, for example, by doing dropsets
until you can't move the bar, is counterproductive.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in

news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer <[email hidden]> writes:
>
> Sprints were painful, fer shure. I don't think I kept quite the
> same intensity up through all 8 sets either.
>
> Just came back from doing this with DB "thrusters" per Dan John
> and I take back what I said about not being able to get enough
> intensity with weight exercises. Most of the focus on quads,
> shoulders and tris--I was getting towards failure on the arms in
> the last sets.
>
> I'm wondering about doing these with DB clean & press. Might be
> more balaned between back and front, pull and push.
>
> Hugh

That's an interesting idea. I personally don't think that my arms
could take the punishment, but I am still more than a bit of a
beginner. When I do thrusters I use so little weight that I could
grab dumbbells off the rack where all the weights are painted neon
pink 🙂.

For right now I am happy enough with a session of Tabata Front
Squats once every two weeks, and a set or two of sprints every week
(depending on whether I do the squats that week). Both of these
exercises seem to help me lower my time in my two mile route (which
is one of my indicators for my level of fitness). I don't think
that I could do much more than that and still be excited about my
cardio days.

I am a true believer in the idea behind the workout, though. My
body responds really well to interval-type work. I have been very
happy with the results, and there is no denying that you feel like
you have been working hard.

Jason

Anybody else been doing these?

I did them once with 15# DBs, started at 15 reps per interval and
degraded down to 8, then rolled on the floor crying in pain for 15
minutes and was sore for 5 days.

Hmm... That sounds very familiar. Except I started with sets of 12
and degraded to 6 (I was able to maintain at least 8 reps until the
last set). I was noticeably sore for nearly six days.

Quoted message said:

Did them again two weeks later with similar results, maybe a little
less painful.

I wasn't as sore as long when I tried them again two weeks later, but
I didn't add a single rep. I was only sore until the next day.

Quoted message said:

Did them again a week later (Saturday), but this time instead of
going absolutely all out on the first few intervals I paced myself
at 12 reps/interval. Made 12 reps in all 8 intervals, spent 10
minutes gasping like a trout, and haven't been sore at all since.

So... is it better to pace yourself at an intensity you can sustain,
or to go all out on the first intervals? Have I taken away any
advantage in doing intervals by pacing myself this way? If it
doesn't hurt, it's not doing you any good, right? :-p

It's pretty hard to "pace yourself" when you are talking about a 4
minute workout. I found that if I counted up the total reps they
didn't vary much between the times when I simply tried to do as many
as possible every set and the times that I tried to "pace myself". At
least that was the case after my body got over the initial shock of
having to do Tabata Thrusters at all.

Currently, when I can do eights sets of at least 8 with my current
weight I graduate to higher weights, but that's primarily due to the
fact that I tend to emphasize strength in whatever exercises I do
(even my cardio workouts are slanted that direction).

I might up the weight, but I find that even with the 15's my arms fatigue
before my legs. The last reps of the last sets are pretty wobbly as it is.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

Hugh Beyer said:

Jason Earl said:

Currently, when I can do eights sets of at least 8 with my current
weight I graduate to higher weights, but that's primarily due to
the fact that I tend to emphasize strength in whatever exercises I
do (even my cardio workouts are slanted that direction).

I might up the weight, but I find that even with the 15's my arms
fatigue before my legs. The last reps of the last sets are pretty
wobbly as it is.

Hugh

My lower body is currently lagging my upper body, and I started
lighter than you. Not to mention the fact that I get as much
advantage from momentum as possible.

Eventually I plan on switching to front squats, for precisely that
reason.

Jason

Jason Earl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

Jason Earl said:

Currently, when I can do eights sets of at least 8 with my current
weight I graduate to higher weights, but that's primarily due to
the fact that I tend to emphasize strength in whatever exercises I
do (even my cardio workouts are slanted that direction).

I might up the weight, but I find that even with the 15's my arms
fatigue before my legs. The last reps of the last sets are pretty
wobbly as it is.

Hugh

My lower body is currently lagging my upper body, and I started
lighter than you. Not to mention the fact that I get as much
advantage from momentum as possible.

Eventually I plan on switching to front squats, for precisely that
reason.

Jason

To go back to the original question, I did some research and it turns out
Tabata's second study was with one group of people doing the 20s/10s at 170%
of VO2max and a second doing longer intervals with 200% of VO2max, and the
shorter intervals worked better to tax both aerobic and anaerobic
pathways... so since his people were using 170% of something-I-don't-quite-
understand instead of 200%, I guess it's not a total bastardization to hold
back from going completely all out.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

Hugh Beyer said:

To go back to the original question, I did some research and it turns out
Tabata's second study was with one group of people doing the 20s/10s at 170%
of VO2max and a second doing longer intervals with 200% of VO2max, and the
shorter intervals worked better to tax both aerobic and anaerobic
pathways... so since his people were using 170% of something-I-don't-quite-
understand instead of 200%, I guess it's not a total bastardization to hold
back from going completely all out.

Not at all -- keep in mind that *power output* is a better indicator of
intensity (in terms of % VO2max) than "effort" (if that efficiency does
not change, they should are directly proportional). In other words, if you want
to stay at a constant % VO2 max, you need to maintain the same power output
on later workbouts, which means holding back at the start.

Personally, I think this notion of going "all out" all through the workout is
driven by ego-driven training presented by muscle comics, much the same
mindset as Mentzer's HIT (the Shawn Phillips article is a fine example of
this). Real athletes don't train like this. Sure, they go all-out, but not on
every rep. Going all out is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Hugh Beyer said:

To go back to the original question, I did some research and it turns out
Tabata's second study was with one group of people doing the 20s/10s at 170%
of VO2max and a second doing longer intervals with 200% of VO2max, and the
shorter intervals worked better to tax both aerobic and anaerobic
pathways... so since his people were using 170% of something-I-don't-quite-
understand instead of 200%, I guess it's not a total bastardization to hold
back from going completely all out.

Not at all -- keep in mind that *power output* is a better indicator of
intensity (in terms of % VO2max) than "effort" (if that efficiency does
not change, they should are directly proportional). In other words, if you want
to stay at a constant % VO2 max, you need to maintain the same power output
on later workbouts, which means holding back at the start.

Personally, I think this notion of going "all out" all through the workout is
driven by ego-driven training presented by muscle comics, much the same
mindset as Mentzer's HIT (the Shawn Phillips article is a fine example of
this). Real athletes don't train like this. Sure, they go all-out, but not on
every rep. Going all out is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hugh Beyer said:

To go back to the original question, I did some research and it turns
out Tabata's second study was with one group of people doing the
20s/10s at 170% of VO2max and a second doing longer intervals with 200%
of VO2max, and the shorter intervals worked better to tax both aerobic
and anaerobic pathways... so since his people were using 170% of
something-I-don't-quite- understand instead of 200%, I guess it's not a
total bastardization to hold back from going completely all out.

Not at all -- keep in mind that *power output* is a better indicator of
intensity (in terms of % VO2max) than "effort" (if that efficiency does
not change, they should are directly proportional). In other words, if
you want to stay at a constant % VO2 max, you need to maintain the same
power output on later workbouts, which means holding back at the start.

Personally, I think this notion of going "all out" all through the
workout is driven by ego-driven training presented by muscle comics,
much the same mindset as Mentzer's HIT (the Shawn Phillips article is a
fine example of this). Real athletes don't train like this. Sure, they
go all-out, but not on every rep. Going all out is a means to an end,
not an end in itself.

Makes sense to me. Some of the gee-whiz-balls-to-the-wall HIIT stuff is
pretty silly.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.