Wheelset choices

"MT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd had a pair of the new Dura Ace 7800 wheels on order from my LBS, and
was told today that they'll be delayed until May because Shimano is
revamping them(?). They suggested Ksyrium SL as a decent replacement.
I was looking for a durable, not-necessarily-light (Shimano compatible 10
speed) set to train and race on, figuring I'd sacrifice light weight for a
wheel that would last (I weigh about 170 or so.)
Does anyone have any information on what Shimano is doing, and why?
I'm wondering whether I should just wait until the 7800's are available,
particularly because I think the DA hubset is of considerably higher
quality than the Mavics would be.
I've also read some negative reports on the Ksyrium wheels, although I
know there are several versions, and I don't know which were getting the
bad press.

I'd recommend you check out the Topolinos. I've put about 1800 miles on a
pair and couldn't be happier. They have held up extremely well (I'm
260lbs.), are very light (mine weighed 1420gr about 30 grams heavier than
advertised), and have the best ride I've ever experienced (cushy without
being flexible).

I switched my rear hub from a campy to Shimano so had to get the wheel
re-dished. I sent it back to the factory, and they had the work done and
the wheel shipped the day after it had arrived!

There are some downsides. Because of its integrated construction... IF you
break a spoke, you have to replace half the wheel, although I can't imagine
breaking a spoke in normal usage... it would have to come from external
damage. Also, they use aluminum nipples that are secured with Loc-tite. So
if you have to true your wheel, they suggest you use a small torch on each
nipple to loosen the Loc-tite. Otherwise you strip the nipple very easily.
But having said all that, after 1800 miles on rough roads with a 260 lbs
blob on them, they have performed without ANY problems.

The ride is so superior to my backup wheels (Ultegra hubs, DT spokes, Open
Pro rims), that I've dumped my plans to use them as "special occasion"
wheels. It'll be interesting to see how they hold up for another season.

cyclingnews.com did an extended test on a pair. Here's a link to their
review.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2004/reviews/topolino_700cclincher

HTH

MT said:

I'd had a pair of the new Dura Ace 7800 wheels on order from my LBS,

and was

Quoted message said:

told today that they'll be delayed until May because Shimano is

revamping

Quoted message said:

them(?). They suggested Ksyrium SL as a decent replacement.
I was looking for a durable, not-necessarily-light (Shimano

compatible 10

Quoted message said:

speed) set to train and race on, figuring I'd sacrifice light weight

for a

Quoted message said:

wheel that would last (I weigh about 170 or so.)
Does anyone have any information on what Shimano is doing, and why?
I'm wondering whether I should just wait until the 7800's are

available,

Quoted message said:

particularly because I think the DA hubset is of considerably higher

quality

Quoted message said:

than the Mavics would be.
I've also read some negative reports on the Ksyrium wheels, although

I know

Quoted message said:

there are several versions, and I don't know which were getting the

bad

Quoted message said:

press.

Thoughts/experience/recommendations?
Thanks.
Thomps.

Have you looked at the higher end Alex wheels?

Bestest Handsander said:

I'd recommend you check out the Topolinos. I've put about 1800 miles on
a pair and couldn't be happier. They have held up extremely well (I'm
260lbs.), are very light (mine weighed 1420gr about 30 grams heavier than
advertised), and have the best ride I've ever experienced (cushy without
being flexible).

Heh.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

MT said:

I'd had a pair of the new Dura Ace 7800 wheels on order from my LBS, and was
told today that they'll be delayed until May because Shimano is revamping
them(?). They suggested Ksyrium SL as a decent replacement.
I was looking for a durable, not-necessarily-light (Shimano compatible 10
speed) set to train and race on, figuring I'd sacrifice light weight for a
wheel that would last (I weigh about 170 or so.)
Does anyone have any information on what Shimano is doing, and why?
I'm wondering whether I should just wait until the 7800's are available,
particularly because I think the DA hubset is of considerably higher quality
than the Mavics would be.
I've also read some negative reports on the Ksyrium wheels, although I know
there are several versions, and I don't know which were getting the bad
press.

Thoughts/experience/recommendations?

A handmade set of wheels designed for you will probably cost
less, weigh less, last longer.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Bestest Handsander said:

I'd recommend you check out the Topolinos. I've put about 1800 miles on a
pair and couldn't be happier.

1800 miles is not very much.

Quoted message said:

There are some downsides. Because of its integrated construction... IF you
break a spoke, you have to replace half the wheel, although I can't imagine
breaking a spoke in normal usage...

What makes these spokes invincible? On the other hand, I haven't broken
a spoke; ordinary, garden-variety spoke, in (guessing) 20000 miles. Last
one I broke was an old wheel left over from the 70s that I re-dished for
8-speed.

Quoted message said:

it would have to come from external
damage.

Which does occasionally happen, and would leave you SOL with these wheels.

Quoted message said:

Also, they use aluminum nipples that are secured with Loc-tite.
So if you have to true your wheel, they suggest you use a small torch
on each nipple to loosen the Loc-tite.

Sheesh.

Quoted message said:

Otherwise you strip the nipple
very easily.

With aluminum nipples (and, let me guess, low spoke-count), you will strip
the nipples very easily, anyway.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

I test-rode a bike with new Ksyrium SL wheels this morning. The wheels
performed excellently, felt quite comfortable to me, and seemed worth
buying. But that was just a 25-minute test ride.
I can't address your other questions though.

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How far do you have to ride to know that they will hold up? The guy
recommending them seems to think that still being true after less than
2000 miles is "They have held up extremely well".

Dear David,

So how far before you're happy with their trueness?

I've gone over 6000 km on my current wheels, and I'll be disappointed if
they don't last at least that long again with no maintenance. I'm happy
with them to this point, but I wouldn't recommend them based on the
distance I've gone with them so far.

Dear Benjamin,

So how far before you would recommend them?

Carl Fogel

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've gone over 6000 km on my current wheels, and I'll be disappointed if
they don't last at least that long again with no maintenance. I'm happy
with them to this point, but I wouldn't recommend them based on the
distance I've gone with them so far.

Dear Benjamin,

So how far before you would recommend them?

I wouldn't recommend them. These are anodized MA3s that have single
eyelets, and some people have reported problems with cracking around the
nipples. I would tell people who asked that I have experienced no problems
after X distance, with a maximum load on the bicycle of less than 170 lbs,
but that I have slight reservations with them for the reason mentioned.

To exaggerate the point, I wouldn't recommend a car, saying "well, I've
driven 100 miles in it and it has not yet suddenly exploded in flames!".

I don't expect well built wheels to need re-truing from normal use, period.

Dear Benjamin,

Okay, you ride over 6,000 km on wheels that you don't
recommend.

So how far would you ride on a pair of hypothetical wheels
without any problems before you'd recommend them?

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't recommend them. These are anodized MA3s that have single
eyelets, and some people have reported problems with cracking around the
nipples. I would tell people who asked that I have experienced no
problems after X distance, with a maximum load on the bicycle of less
than 170 lbs, but that I have slight reservations with them for the
reason mentioned.

To exaggerate the point, I wouldn't recommend a car, saying "well, I've
driven 100 miles in it and it has not yet suddenly exploded in flames!".

I don't expect well built wheels to need re-truing from normal use,
period.

Okay, you ride over 6,000 km on wheels that you don't recommend.

Bear in mind that I don't recommend against them, either.

Quoted message said:

So how far would you ride on a pair of hypothetical wheels without any
problems before you'd recommend them?

I wouldn't base a recommendation just on how far I'd ridden on them. I'd
also try to find out if other people had experienced any problems with
them, and I'd look at their design to see if they had properties that make
me more comfortable, such as double walls with sockets, etc. (i.e. if they
share features with other wheels that I know are reliable).

I believe that wheels should last long enough, and experience few enough
problems, that an accurate assessment of their quality can not easily be
determined by a single person, who can not collect enough failure data in a
reasonable time.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

fdellasantina said:

Carl,
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, however...
Your posts and replys suggest not an interest in ".tech" but rather in
somehow demeaning or disrespecting the original post/poster? This is an
ongoing pattern with your posts.so,.perhaps your character is being skewed
via the keyboard, but perhaps not. If you have something positive to add or
a good suggestion, "please" inform the group, it's entirely welcome!...but
to be honest, your ongoing habit of questioning the question is beginning to
wreak of a lack of self esteem or confidence from you, and little
more.(don't ask me to explain this, or I'd have to send you a bill) "Google"
your name in Newsgroups, just for kicks!!. Anyway, just some friendly
advice, which I would hope you can appreciate.

Dear F.,

The post that started this part of the thread recommended a
pair of wheels that had no problems with a 260 pound rider
over 1800 miles of rough road.

This provoked the immediate comment that 1800 miles isn't
much.

So I asked how far people have to ride wheels before they
can recommend them.

They might have explained that they often had wheels that
were fine for the first 1800 miles, but then regularly went
out of true, cracked, or failed in some other fashion after
X more miles.

So far, I can't see any straightforward answers to this
obvious question.

Five thousand miles? Ten thousand? Twenty? Fifty? Hell,
normal braking may wear the rims out before these guys would
recommend a wheelset.

So I'm inclined to think that the positive, useful
recommendation was dismissed without much justification.

Do you think that the post recommending a pair of wheels
that are just fine after 1800 miles on rough road with an
unusually heavy rider is reasonable?

Or do you think that he was jumping the gun? If so, how much
farther would he have ride without problems before he should
recommend the wheels?

Carl Fogel

"Benjamin Lewis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't recommend them. These are anodized MA3s that have single
eyelets, and some people have reported problems with cracking around the
nipples. I would tell people who asked that I have experienced no
problems after X distance, with a maximum load on the bicycle of less
than 170 lbs, but that I have slight reservations with them for the
reason mentioned.

To exaggerate the point, I wouldn't recommend a car, saying "well, I've
driven 100 miles in it and it has not yet suddenly exploded in flames!".

I don't expect well built wheels to need re-truing from normal use,
period.

Okay, you ride over 6,000 km on wheels that you don't recommend.

Bear in mind that I don't recommend against them, either.

Quoted message said:

So how far would you ride on a pair of hypothetical wheels without any
problems before you'd recommend them?

I wouldn't base a recommendation just on how far I'd ridden on them. I'd
also try to find out if other people had experienced any problems with
them, and I'd look at their design to see if they had properties that make
me more comfortable, such as double walls with sockets, etc. (i.e. if they
share features with other wheels that I know are reliable).

I believe that wheels should last long enough, and experience few enough
problems, that an accurate assessment of their quality can not easily be
determined by a single person, who can not collect enough failure data in
a
reasonable time.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Well, hell Ben. How is someone supposed to gather info if others don't
share their experience? Should we all keep silent until we have "x" amount
of time/miles on any piece of equipment? If so, what is "x"? I think
that's the point Carl has been driving at. Would you have deemed my post
more informative if I had just avoided the word "recommend?"

I qualified my recommendation by giving the distance ridden on the wheels
and some of the downsides I observed in their design and construction just
as you stated above. I also stated my weight and typical road conditions.
I also shared a link to a review from a rider who put 10,000k of racing and
training on his pair (many on Belgian cobbles), so the OP could read another
viewpoint.

I don't mind you stating that you would prefer more miles before giving any
credence to my recommendation, but I don't understand why you think I did
something wrong by posting my original message.

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:14:50 -0700, Bestest Handsander wrote:

>I'd recommend you check out the Topolinos. I've put about 1800 miles on a
>pair and couldn't be happier.

1800 miles is not very much.

[snip]

Dear David,

How far do you have to ride to tell if you're happy with a
pair of wheels?

How far do you have to ride to know that they will hold up? The guy
recommending them seems to think that still being true after less than
2000 miles is "They have held up extremely well".

By Brandtian standards, they are approximately 1% of the way to holding
up well.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Quoted message said:

Do you think that the post recommending a pair of wheels
that are just fine after 1800 miles on rough road with an
unusually heavy rider is reasonable?

Yes.

Or do you think that he was jumping the gun? If so, how much

Quoted message said:

farther would he have ride without problems before he should
recommend the wheels?

Carl Fogel

Well Carl, why don't you create a mileage figure that you would feel more
secure with, and have the original poster reply to you at that point? Or
better yet, at intervals of 2000, 5000 and 10,000 miles? An honest question
is more likely to receive an honest answer.

-Federico
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

fdellasantina said:

Carl,
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, however...
Your posts and replys suggest not an interest in ".tech" but rather in
somehow demeaning or disrespecting the original post/poster? This is an
ongoing pattern with your posts.so,.perhaps your character is being skewed
via the keyboard, but perhaps not. If you have something positive to add
or
a good suggestion, "please" inform the group, it's entirely welcome!...but
to be honest, your ongoing habit of questioning the question is beginning
to
wreak of a lack of self esteem or confidence from you, and little
more.(don't ask me to explain this, or I'd have to send you a bill)
"Google"
your name in Newsgroups, just for kicks!!. Anyway, just some friendly
advice, which I would hope you can appreciate.

Dear F.,

The post that started this part of the thread recommended a
pair of wheels that had no problems with a 260 pound rider
over 1800 miles of rough road.

This provoked the immediate comment that 1800 miles isn't
much.

So I asked how far people have to ride wheels before they
can recommend them.

They might have explained that they often had wheels that
were fine for the first 1800 miles, but then regularly went
out of true, cracked, or failed in some other fashion after
X more miles.

So far, I can't see any straightforward answers to this
obvious question.

Five thousand miles? Ten thousand? Twenty? Fifty? Hell,
normal braking may wear the rims out before these guys would
recommend a wheelset.

So I'm inclined to think that the positive, useful
recommendation was dismissed without much justification.

Do you think that the post recommending a pair of wheels
that are just fine after 1800 miles on rough road with an
unusually heavy rider is reasonable?

Quoted message said:

Or do you think that he was jumping the gun? If so, how much
farther would he have ride without problems before he should
recommend the wheels?

Carl Fogel

carlfogel said:

Dear David,

So how far before you're happy with their trueness?

Carl Fogel

Do you have a point, here, Carl?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

carlfogel said:

The post that started this part of the thread recommended a
pair of wheels that had no problems with a 260 pound rider
over 1800 miles of rough road.

This provoked the immediate comment that 1800 miles isn't
much.

So I asked how far people have to ride wheels before they
can recommend them.

They might have explained that they often had wheels that
were fine for the first 1800 miles, but then regularly went
out of true, cracked, or failed in some other fashion after
X more miles.

So far, I can't see any straightforward answers to this
obvious question.

Carl: OK. Based on the cost of any wheel with a made-up name, which
rarely is less than $1000, I'd say it'd have to outlast 10 normal wheels
before I'd recommend it. I have normal wheels with 20000 miles on them,
so the distance would indeed have to be "Jobstian".

But my point was somewhat different. The guy who claimed these wheels
were so excellent based on less than a season of riding was indulging in
[censored]. He certainly had no real evidence of durability, and his claims
that they were, what was is, stiff but cushy, well....

The thing is, you don't have to know what the real numbers, how long they
last, how much they would deflect, etc., to know that the claims were
nonsense.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

carlfogel said:

Dear David,

So how far before you're happy with their trueness?

Carl Fogel

Do you have a point, here, Carl?

Dear David,

I have a question because I haven't seen the point yet.

A 260-pound poster volunteered that he's pleased with his
particular wheels after 1800 miles on rough roads.

The immediate comment was that 1800 miles wasn't much.

It seemed disparaging, but I decided to ask to find out if
1800 miles really isn't much--do you expect wheels that have
no problems in 1800 miles with such a heavy load on rough
roads to have problems in 1800 + X miles?

What's the thinking behind the "not much" comment? Is there
some reason that he shouldn't be happy with them?

This really is intended as a serious question.

Certainly there are plenty of posters with far more than
1800 miles on their wheels. But how long does it take before
they can commend a wheel?

If I were reading Consumer Reports, I'd expect any comment
about "not much" to have an explanation of how much more
than 1800 miles would lead them to recommend a set of
wheels.

If I were a bicycle shop dealer, I'd be wondering how long
before people were willing to recommend the wheels--are they
actually going to bring them back and ask for a refund after
1800 miles because they can't recommend them?

What should we expect to go wrong if the wheels are fine
after 1800 miles? How much farther must they go? Ballpark
figures would be fine.

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What should we expect to go wrong if the wheels are fine
after 1800 miles? How much farther must they go? Ballpark
figures would be fine.

I'll take you up on a real answer -
I think around 200-300 km is fine to know. The first 2-3 km are usually
spent paying attention to the usual - are the spokes pinging ? is the wheel
locked in place ? do they feel lighter, faster, flexible, etc.
Then you ride the rest of that day ridiculously hard, trying to see if the
wheels fail to give satisfaction. By the end of the day, your physical
sensations should overcome the imaginary benefits you bought.
Next, you use the old wheels, to compare, again trying the same route and
effort.
Finally, you take a long ride, looking to test climbing, braking, flex in
turning, and if you are honest, by the end of that day, you know.

Just my feeble attempt to add data to your file.

Next .........
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

In article <[email hidden]>,
A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

A handmade set of wheels designed for you will probably cost
less, weigh less, last longer.

If you really want a set of wheels...

Go to the Colorado Cyclist website and choose New Items

Scroll down and look at the Obermeyer carbon lites.

Be the first rider in your group to have these at just $5500 per set!

How many hand builts can you get for that???

....and go just as fast???

HAND

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl: OK. Based on the cost of any wheel with a made-up name, which
rarely is less than $1000, I'd say it'd have to outlast 10 normal wheels
before I'd recommend it. I have normal wheels with 20000 miles on them,
so the distance would indeed have to be "Jobstian".

But my point was somewhat different. The guy who claimed these wheels
were so excellent based on less than a season of riding was indulging in
[censored]. He certainly had no real evidence of durability, and his claims
that they were, what was is, stiff but cushy, well....

The thing is, you don't have to know what the real numbers, how long they
last, how much they would deflect, etc., to know that the claims were
nonsense.

Okay David L. Johnson.

1. The Topolinos cost less than $1000 ($850 to be exact). The OP stated he
was considering wheels that cost $800. Whether you would ever spend this
much is irrelevant. I am, and the OP stated he was.

2. I've had five different sets of wheels over the last ten years. (Topos,
Bontager, Cosmos, custom built Ultegra Hubs-DT spokes-Open Pro rims-36spoke,
an old Shimano set: don't recall the name-10 years ago, and a pair I've
built myself from discarded parts... more for the experience than anything
else). NONE have held up for 1800m without requiring work EXCEPT the Topos!
Remember, I weigh probably close to TWICE as much as some riders.

3. You're problem with "Stiff but Cushy": read the cyclingnews.com review.
Read the reviews in roadbikereview.com. Look up reviews in RBT on google.
I'm not the only one who reports a similar feel. Only a closed mind would
dismiss these reviews simply because they are beyond the scope of his
experience ("I've never had a wheel feel this way, so that claim must be
[censored]!"😉

4. Again, what claim is nonsense? I reported my experience with the wheels,
explained the conditions under which I had that experience, stated the
downsides as I knew them, and provided a link to another reviewer who put
10,000k on his!

If you think any wheelset costing more than $x is useless without trying
them, and if you dismiss reviews of any wheelset that provides a ride not
consistent with your experience as a matter of course, then you're simply
holding onto dogma you've accepted as gospel. "Damn the heretics!" That,
my friend, makes your opinions nonsense.

Ploink!