Et tu, Brute

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was riding to work on my customary route, a nice wide road
alongside which is a pavement with some paint on (somewhat narrower
than the recommended width for a cycle lane, much narrower than the
minimum recommended for a two-way shared use facility, which is what
it is).

We have exactly the same problem on the A38 north of Bristol, where SGlos
put in the usual "get them out of the way of cars" shared use path as part
of a scheme to improve safety for cyclists and pedestrians! paid for by the
developers of the huge new PO site. Like your site, there were regular
attempts to educate us cyclists who remained on the road, especially by the
PO drivers, culminating in a meeting between the PO drivers, the police and
ourselves, at which the police supported our right to ride on the road, and
the drivers were disabused of their notion that because substandard
"farcilities" exist, they are mandatory. We have persuaded the council,
after only six years, that they got it wrong, and now they've painted cycle
symbols on the road, which seems to have alleviated the problem. There are
still a large number of cyclists who ride on the shared use path though.

Rich said:

We have persuaded the council,
after only six years, that they got it wrong, and now they've painted cycle
symbols on the road, which seems to have alleviated the problem. There are
still a large number of cyclists who ride on the shared use path though.

That's a good result - if people feel comfortable pootling along on a
shared use facility then I guess that's their choice, but the bike
symbols on the road is a great idea, a bit like the French "partageons
la route" signs.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Just zis Guy said:

Rich said:

We have persuaded the council,
after only six years, that they got it wrong, and now they've painted cycle
symbols on the road...

Quoted message said:

That's a good result - if people feel comfortable pootling along on a
shared use facility then I guess that's their choice, but the bike
symbols on the road is a great idea...

I really like these too. There are a lot in Winchester and they work well.
I often feel like shouting to the motorists to get on the pavement ;-)

John B

Just zis Guy said:

but the bike
symbols on the road is a great idea,

I disagree. It's state-the-obvious sign clutter. May help in the
locality, but if they were to become common I think it would re-enforce
the myth that cyclists shouldn't generally be on the road (i.e. "there'd
be a cycle painted on the road if you were meant to cycle here"😉.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I was riding to work on my customary route, a nice wide road
alongside which is a pavement with some paint on (somewhat narrower
than the recommended width for a cycle lane, much narrower than the
minimum recommended for a two-way shared use facility, which is what
it is).

White lines have recently appeared on some pavements near to where I live.
They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb but as yet there is
nothing to denote a cycle lane is being created so nothing to get excited
about. But next time out I shall take a tape measure and check the width and
if they are designated as cycle lanes I think I shall relax my normal apathy
and try to educate the council from my position of comunity charges payer,
cyclist and motorist.
(As a motorist I feel they're dangerous as any cyclist using them would be
at great risk of departing the pavement involuntarily and striking my car
causing damage ;-)

This apparent scheme comes hot on the heels of the misguided cycle lanes on
a nearby roundabout and is convincing me the person(s) responsible are
clueless beyond belief.

Pete

"Peter B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This apparent scheme comes hot on the heels of the misguided cycle lanes
on
a nearby roundabout and is convincing me the person(s) responsible are
clueless beyond belief.

Not anything to do with W S Atkins, aka A S S Watkins in my house, by any
chance at all? In SGlos they are responsible for proposing a miniroundabout
as a safety improvement for pedestrians and cyclists, they produced a
complete 100 page report on cycling without once mentioning the national,
regional or local cycling strategies, and their recent proposals for the
Aztec West roundabout (just north of Bristol on the A38) were totally and
utterly stupid, unworkable and dangerous. But hey, the council trusts them,
and they are a respected transport consultant. Women, children and cyclists
first.

Quoted message said:

Pete

Peter B said:

They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb

How ide is a set of MTB handlebars? Surely that would be great fodder for
the local paper: "Council puts in bike lane that is narrower than the bike"

...d

"Nathaniel David Porter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the bike
symbols on the road is a great idea,

I disagree. It's state-the-obvious sign clutter. May help in the
locality, but if they were to become common I think it would re-enforce
the myth that cyclists shouldn't generally be on the road (i.e. "there'd
be a cycle painted on the road if you were meant to cycle here"😉.

Agreed. The move should be towards more visual calming and the expectation
that cyclists are on the road as of right.

T

"Peter B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This apparent scheme comes hot on the heels of the misguided cycle lanes

on

Quoted message said:

a nearby roundabout and is convincing me the person(s) responsible are
clueless beyond belief.

Many are clueless beyond belief. However, they also tend to run the
standard play-book of [censored] designs just because they are 'approved'

Jobsworth and clueless.

T

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:42:24 +0000,

David Martin said:

Peter B said:

They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb

How ide is a set of MTB handlebars? Surely that would be great fodder for
the local paper: "Council puts in bike lane that is narrower than the bike"

I've just measured my hybrid's handlebars - 24" at the widest point.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Nathaniel David Porter said:

Just zis Guy said:

but the bike
symbols on the road is a great idea,

I disagree. It's state-the-obvious sign clutter. May help in the
locality, but if they were to become common I think it would re-enforce
the myth that cyclists shouldn't generally be on the road (i.e. "there'd
be a cycle painted on the road if you were meant to cycle here"😉.

I'm not too sure. It could work the other way.
Certainly the sections I use in Winchester which are along a fairly busy
road have had a beneficial effect. I think it makes _some_ motorists
think that perhaps _they_ don't have absolute right of way and that they
are sharing the road with others.

John B

David Martin said:

On 21/2/05 8:57 pm, in article [email hidden], "Peter

B said:

They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb

How ide is a set of MTB handlebars? Surely that would be great fodder
for the local paper: "Council puts in bike lane that is narrower than
the bike"

Never mind the bike, /I'm/ more than 18" wide...

Meanwhile, next door to the Nut Mines they have built a block of Yup-O-Flats
but, for reasons known only to the planners, have neglected to provide
adequate parking spaces for the Yupmobiles, which perforce are left in the
street. Or, to be more accurate, in the contraflow bike lane on one side
thereof. I am wondering who will be responsible when an innocent cyclist
sails round the corner and finds his progress rudely arrested by a Range
Rover, and whether sending photographs and Rude Words to the council will
have any effect whatsoever...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Martin said:

On 21/2/05 8:57 pm, in article [email hidden], "Peter

B said:

They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb

How ide is a set of MTB handlebars? Surely that would be great fodder
for the local paper: "Council puts in bike lane that is narrower than
the bike"

Never mind the bike, /I'm/ more than 18" wide...

Meanwhile, next door to the Nut Mines they have built a block of

Yup-O-Flats

Quoted message said:

but, for reasons known only to the planners, have neglected to provide
adequate parking spaces for the Yupmobiles,

Might be planning policy. Apparantly not providing adequate parking makes
people take the bus....

<snip>

Nathaniel Porter said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, next door to the Nut Mines they have built a block of
Yup-O-Flats but, for reasons known only to the planners, have
neglected to provide adequate parking spaces for the Yupmobiles,

Might be planning policy. Apparantly not providing adequate parking
makes people take the bus....

I heard this last week as well, about some Yup-O-Wossname in Exeter. Makes
a change from when TFWKAML had a planning application turned down because it
didn't have enough parking spaces...

....even though the building in question was a hostel for the homeless.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nathaniel Porter said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, next door to the Nut Mines they have built a block of
Yup-O-Flats but, for reasons known only to the planners, have
neglected to provide adequate parking spaces for the Yupmobiles,

Might be planning policy. Apparantly not providing adequate parking
makes people take the bus....

I heard this last week as well, about some Yup-O-Wossname in Exeter.

Makes

Quoted message said:

a change from when TFWKAML had a planning application turned down because

it

Quoted message said:

didn't have enough parking spaces...

...even though the building in question was a hostel for the homeless.

I bet the Monty Python team are kicking themselves for not thinking of that
one...

Dave Larrington said:

a change from when TFWKAML

Did the ex have a sex change, then? ;-)

--
Michael MacClancy

Dave Larrington said:

I heard this last week as well, about some Yup-O-Wossname in
Exeter. Makes a change from when TFWKAML had a planning
application turned down because it didn't have enough parking
spaces...

The Former Woman Known As Mrs. Larrington? Has she had an operation?

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

Dave Larrington said:

I heard this last week as well, about some Yup-O-Wossname in
Exeter. Makes a change from when TFWKAML had a planning
application turned down because it didn't have enough parking
spaces...

The Former Woman Known As Mrs. Larrington? Has she had an operation?

Bah! to both you and Mr MacClancy! I get easily distracted when there are
Evil Squirrels in da 'hood.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

Nathaniel Porter said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Martin said:

On 21/2/05 8:57 pm, in article [email hidden], "Peter
B" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>They look to be no more than 18 inches from the kerb

How ide is a set of MTB handlebars? Surely that would be great fodder
for the local paper: "Council puts in bike lane that is narrower than
the bike"

Never mind the bike, /I'm/ more than 18" wide...

Meanwhile, next door to the Nut Mines they have built a block of

Yup-O-Flats

Quoted message said:

but, for reasons known only to the planners, have neglected to provide
adequate parking spaces for the Yupmobiles,

Might be planning policy. Apparantly not providing adequate parking makes
people take the bus....

Almost certainly planning policy. Until a year or two ago there was a
minimum acceptable level of car parking in new developments (roughly 2
cars per house in the case of residential). This requirement had two
effects.

Firstly, it effectively subsidised car parking - and therefore car use
and ownership. If the local planning authority (or GOSE etc) required x
new homes to be built, sufficient land would be found to accommodate
these homes and parking. There was, on new housing, no premium for the
extra land take.

Secondly, it blighted our towns with hideous car centric design. I'm
sure you're familiar with (you even live in) the stunning
double-garage-door front elevations or airstrip style driveways of 70s
and 80s sprawl housing. In non-residential areas the effect was worse
and resulted in every public building, shop or office being sat in the
middle of a barren car park wilderness. Handy for parking but pretty
unappealing in terms of somewhere to spend time and money.

As I say, the planning guidance (in the form of PPG3) has changed and
the minumum requirements have been replaced with *maximum* car parking
standards and *minimum* *bike* parking standards. This is good news for
us all - even the car dependant benefit from better town environments.

However, the natives are restless. They want their free parking at every
possible destination and live in terror of one day coming home and
having to park tens of yards from their front door.