Biking in Manhattan as a tourist.

Jimi said:

I will visit NYC in May and it is my intention is to rent a bike there for
a whole day at least.

But It is not my intention to be killed on the streets, as the guides I am
reading (Lonely Planet mostly) clearly suggest not to try to bike through
Manhattan traffic.

I downloaded a map from the web, and a Greenway that looks very interesting
is the one that goes all over the Island: would you suggest the whole trip
(or even a part of it) for its sightseen and/or the beauty of the parks
around it? Is it safe (no holes...) and not to much clogged by fellow
bikers? And what are the chances of finding restrooms and places to eat
around the greenway?

And I will bike in Central Park, of course...

Others interesting biking trip?

I would happily hear your suggestions.

Manhattan is an okay place to ride if you are careful (wear a helmet!),
have some experience in riding in traffic and pick your spots.

On business days it's just as well to avoid the midtown and downtown
business districts. Too much traffic.

The greenway is enjoyable--although others will disagree I think the
best stretch is on the West Side down to Battery Park. Most of this
stretch is in very good condition. There are nice water views along much
of the way and there are some nice parks down by Battery Park City, as
well as some sights to see down there.

Likewise, Central Park has a nice loop (about 6 miles) which is closed
to traffic much of the time.

During May--on a nice day--both the Greenway and Central Park can be
crowded with cyclists and others (runners; skaters) so these might best
be done on a weekday.

Other things you might try are bicycling over the Brooklyn Bridge and
through Brooklyn (largely flat)--possible destinations are Sheepshead
bay, Coney Island; Prospect Park; the Brooklyn Museum of Art; bicycling
over the George Washington Bridge and up route 9w in New Jersey (this is
one of the more popular rides for Manhattanites trying to escape the
City) to Piermont, Nyack. This route ultimately leads to Bear Mountain
(about 50 Miles from Manhattan).

Jimi wrote

Quoted message said:

But It is not my intention to be killed on the streets,
as the guides I am reading (Lonely Planet mostly)
clearly suggest not to try to bike through Manhattan traffic.

Funny, I had a Lonely Planet guidebook for France say that it was good to
try bicycling on the streets of Paris. So Sharon and I did it for a day last
September. I came away feeling that I'd rather ride on the streets in New
York. And that Manhattan also has better off-street bicycling than Paris
(the West Side Greenway is prettier, and Central Park more fun riding, than
anything off-street we found in Paris).

I did not feel safer riding on the streets of Paris. During our day of
bicycling there we saw two car-car accidents, and we saw one bicyclist in
front of us get into an argument with a car driver who had cut him off. So
where's the guidebook warning against bicycling on the streets of Paris?

I've found the New York City Cycling Map to be a helpful guide to which
streets are better for bicycling. For links to two websites to view it (and
other useful linkes) see
http://roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/nyc/bike_info
And I thought Josh Mermelstein's advice was rather good.

Quoted message said:

"killed" ?

Do these books even attempt to offer any statistics showing that more
bicyclists per mile ridden (or per hour ridden?) get into fatal accidents in
New York City than any other city? I've never heard of such a comparison.
It's very difficult to gather such statistics (halfway accurately). I wonder
how these guidebook authors had the time for it.

I find that New York City drivers tend to be more alert than other places.
They have to be ready for lots of unexpected things on the streets. So I
often feel comfortable skating on the streets of Manhattan. (Just don't
expect much consideration from bus and taxi drivers.)

Ken

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:45:46 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Ken

Roberts said:

Funny, I had a Lonely Planet guidebook for France say that it was good to
try bicycling on the streets of Paris. So Sharon and I did it for a day last
September. I came away feeling that I'd rather ride on the streets in New
York.

I felt safer cycling across Paris with a full set of panniers+
the day before the finale of the Tour than I ever have in any
major urban area in the US. For one thing, French drivers
actually expect to see cyclists, unlike oblivious US drivers.

Like local cyclists, I stuck to the bus lanes, since they were
mostly empty, and the bus drivers are used to it. The only place
I had problems were at the various star intersections, and that
was only because I wasn't always certain which was the street I
was looking to exit to.

"Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"killed" ?

Do these books even attempt to offer any statistics showing that more
bicyclists per mile ridden (or per hour ridden?) get into fatal
accidents in New York City than any other city?

My Lonely Planet "Newe York" (italian 2003 edition)goes something like
this:

Cars don't consider Cyclists. Be wary of parked cars, they leave the
parking without notice; cars cut bicycles off. Bring a whistle or be
ready to shout when such things happen. And, after warning about thieves
("do not expect to find your bike there when you return, even if it's
locked"😉, the conclusion is that theft isn't much of a problem, as it is
the fear of an accident...

So no "killing" actually mentioned, but riding in such conditions made me
think that it might be one of the possibilities... I should have add a
smile though... :-)

Quoted message said:

I find that New York City drivers tend to be more alert than other
places. They have to be ready for lots of unexpected things on the
streets. So I often feel comfortable skating on the streets of
Manhattan. (Just don't expect much consideration from bus and taxy
drivers.)

Nice to hear that, and glad to have New Yorkers don't discourage tourists
from biking, you know, I am the fearful type.

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

French drivers actually expect to see cyclists,
unlike oblivious US drivers.

Good point about driver expectations. Actually what French and Italian
drivers expect to see is lots of motor-scooters, as well as bicycles. (If
we had a "scooter" culture in more American regions, that would help make
the roads safer for bicycles.)

"oblivious" -- The place to look for "oblivious" drivers in around New York
is in the suburbs. I'd feel safer any time riding or skating on a random
street in Manhattan than on a random road in upper Westchester county.
"oblivious" will not survive for more than ten minutes on the streets of
Manhattan: double-parked cars, cars making sudden U-turns, suddenly changing
lanes to make a turn, assertive pedestrians darting out, etc. (perhaps
Dennis is thinking of some other American city for "oblivious"😉

Quoted message said:

cycling across Paris ... like local cyclists,
I stuck to the bus lanes

Sharon and I did not stick to the bus lanes in Paris, because many many
streets in Paris do not have bus lanes, and many many interesting things in
Paris which are not reachable by streets with bus lanes. Unlike Dennis' goal
of getting "across" Paris, we wanted to see lots of places in Paris.

Once away from the bus lanes, we soon discovered that many many "local
cyclists" in Paris were also not sticking to the bus lanes.

Ken

Jimi

Quoted message said:

My Lonely Planet "Newe York" (italian 2003 edition)
goes something like this:
Cars don't consider Cyclists. Be wary of parked cars,
they leave the parking without notice

? which never happens in cities in Italy?

Which is the American city or suburb or village in which oblivious car
drivers do _not_ sometimes start pulling out of parking spaces without
looking, or open their car doors on the traffic side without checking?
There are known strategies for preventing that; smart road bicyclists just
need to learn them.

Quoted message said:

cars cut bicycles off.

Cars cut off other Cars too, on New York City streets. And City bicyclists
cut in front of cars. Everybody on the streets has to be alert.

But lots of bicyclists in the suburbs and villages of America have been hit
by cars in the notorious "right hook" turn-cut-off move -- there's nothing
special about NYC for that. There are known strategies which smart road
bicyclists everywhere must learn in order to prevent that.

On the off-street paths in America, oblivious pedestrians cut off bicyclists
and skaters. And bicyclists cut off skaters and pedestrians. (which never
happens in Europe ?)

Quoted message said:

Bring a whistle or be ready to shout when such things happen.

Better advice is to learn to use assertive "vehicular" bicycling strategies,
as described in some of these books:
http://roberts-1.com/bikehudson/s/m/risks/#books

Ken

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

I felt safer cycling across Paris ... than I ever have in any major urban

area in the US.

* Have you actually ridden in New York City specifically? (I think NYC is
the most European of the big U.S. cities, notably in regard to its public
transportation network)

* Did you actually use the New York City Cycling Map? (instead of like most
long-distance touring cyclists, just "winging it" and not bothering to check
ahead for local bicycling resources)

* Did you know and use assertive "vehicular" riding strategies in NYC?
(instead of practicing traffic-avoidance like mentioned in Paris)

* Did you try riding in NYC on a quiet weekend morning, or a crowded weekday
rush-hour? (how does that compare with the day and time you chose to ride
across Paris)

* Did you experience the excitement and energy of the greatest city in North
America? (or did you just manage to cycle "across" it like with Paris) How
many days did you actually stay? Did you ride on Broadway and Wall Street?
across the Brooklyn Bridge? What neighborhoods did you visit? etc.

What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning? What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop? to
the southern section of the West Side Greenway?

Ken
_________________________________________
Dennis P. Harris wrote

Quoted message said:

I felt safer cycling across Paris with a full set of panniers+
the day before the finale of the Tour than I ever have in any
major urban area in the US. For one thing, French drivers
actually expect to see cyclists, unlike oblivious US drivers.

Like local cyclists, I stuck to the bus lanes, since they were
mostly empty, and the bus drivers are used to it. The only place
I had problems were at the various star intersections, and that
was only because I wasn't always certain which was the street I
was looking to exit to.

"Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Jimi

Quoted message said:

My Lonely Planet "Newe York" (italian 2003 edition)
goes something like this:
Cars don't consider Cyclists. Be wary of parked cars,
they leave the parking without notice

? which never happens in cities in Italy?

Sure it happens a lot here in Italy; but I live in a little town and would
never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be dangerous, but
plain suicidal). And New York either, where, I'll stick to Greenways...

And bear in mind that the italian edition of the guide is traslated from
english, since the authors are NOT italians...

And in case you think so: I have nothing against New Yorkers, or New
Yorkers driving a car, or Taxi drivers, or anything else that moves around
there.

Jimi said:

"Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Jimi

Quoted message said:

My Lonely Planet "Newe York" (italian 2003 edition)
goes something like this:
Cars don't consider Cyclists. Be wary of parked cars,
they leave the parking without notice

? which never happens in cities in Italy?

Sure it happens a lot here in Italy; but I live in a little town and would
never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be dangerous, but
plain suicidal).

Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cycling_the_Streets_of_Rome.html

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
dangerous, but plain suicidal).

Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cycling_the_Streets_of_Rome.html

I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!

And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?

Jimi said:

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
dangerous, but plain suicidal).

Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cycling_the_Streets_of_Rome.html

I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!

And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?

I've only been in NYC once, many years ago, driving a rental car (it was
fierce, but I soon learned to get behind taxis and follow them for as
long as they went the direction I wanted to go - or sometimes a little
further)

I've never ridden there. I live in the Rocky Mountains, and NYC seems
like another country to me (and is as far away). The only major US city
I've ridden in was San Francisco, and that was quite pleasant - no
problems (except for some of the extreme hills). I consider San
Francisco the cleanest and safest major city I know of in the US, ... by
far. Reminds me of the feel of the European cities I've ridden in. (I
grew up near Chicago, but never rode in the city.)

I have ridden in Athens, a very little bit in Naples (from Pompei to the
Naples train station), Rome, Vienna, and across London and back - twice
(Victoria station to Euston station, back to Victoria and once again to
Euston station). That that was a little exciting and strange - my first
time in left side driving and roundabouts - with lots of traffic, but I
still managed to enjoy myself - even took pictures while riding past
Parliament.

My impression (as I mention in my Rome journal) is that European cities
are more friendly to cyclists - more aware of them and their right to be
there. In the US there are many who would like to run you off the road.
They flip you the finger, yell at you to get off the road, and swear at
you. It's unnerving.

On the contrary, I never saw *any* hostility in the European cities I
mentioned above. And I felt quite welcome on the streets of Rome.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

My wife and I were just there last weekend to celebrate our 35th
anniversary; I was able to get in some bike riding as on past trips to NYC.
After striking out on my first try at a place that doesn't rent in the
winter, I found a rental bike at 15th St. and 6th Ave - a TREK mountain bike
in good condition. I rode only a couple miles on Sat. - enough to avoid
getting a zero. On Sun., though, after Mass and brunch, my wife and two of
our "kids" went to Central Park to get a better look at the gates exhibit we
had seen more briefly on Sat., and I had about 3 hours available to bike
ride.

I headed for the Brooklyn Bridge, but got caught up badly in traffic due to
street closures etc incident to the Chinatown parade I hadn't known about.
Eventually, I got to the bridge and crossed it to Brooklyn and back. It's a
famous sight with a nice view; the downside is that pedestrians use the bike
lane as well as their own, so forget about getting across very fast. (On
two previous trips, I crossed the George Washington Bridge, which is also a
nice view and much faster.)

Then I curled around the southern tip of Manhattan, and took the Hudson
River bikeway to 59th, and then zigzaged my way to Central Park, where there
was no hope of riding due to the crowds enjoying the "exhibit". And then it
was back downtown from there.

The bikeway along the Hudson is an excellent bike route by big city
standards. Since it was a seasonably cold day in Feb., bike traffic wasn't
bad. I suspect on a summer weekend, it would be more dense, something like
I have experienced on Chicago's lakefront paths.

I crossed the entire NYC metro area by bike on my long ride last spring, and
agree with the poster on this thread who said you feel safer on a bike in
the City than in the suburbs.

I also want to comment on the comparison to Paris, as discussed by several
posters. I have biked there also. IMHO, New York is a little safer because
the motor scooters that are ubiquitous in Paris operate very aggresively in
the bike lane (and for that matter, the sidewalks) as well as in the auto
lanes, and are constantly cutting back and forth. My main fear was getting
hit by one of them.

"Jimi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I will visit NYC in May and it is my intention is to rent a bike there for
a whole day at least.

But It is not my intention to be killed on the streets, as the guides I am
reading (Lonely Planet mostly) clearly suggest not to try to bike through
Manhattan traffic.

I downloaded a map from the web, and a Greenway that looks very
interesting
is the one that goes all over the Island: would you suggest the whole trip
(or even a part of it) for its sightseen and/or the beauty of the parks
around it? Is it safe (no holes...) and not to much clogged by fellow
bikers? And what are the chances of finding restrooms and places to eat
around the greenway?

And I will bike in Central Park, of course...

Others interesting biking trip?

I would happily hear your suggestions.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:39:11 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Ken

Roberts said:

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

I felt safer cycling across Paris ... than I ever have in any major urban

area in the US.

* Have you actually ridden in New York City specifically? (I think NYC is
the most European of the big U.S. cities, notably in regard to its public
transportation network)

yes. i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967. i brought a bike
with me and it was my major transportation unless i was going off
manhattan. the one saving grace of having a bike was that even
then midtown was gridlocked several times a week at mid-day.

and san francisco has public transport that is far better than
nyc, and a city that is far more european in feel. have you ever
been to europe? it sure doesn't sound like you have.

Quoted message said:

* Did you actually use the New York City Cycling Map? (instead of like most
long-distance touring cyclists, just "winging it" and not bothering to check
ahead for local bicycling resources)

there was no such thing in 1967.

Quoted message said:

* Did you know and use assertive "vehicular" riding strategies in NYC?
(instead of practicing traffic-avoidance like mentioned in Paris)

of course. even the pedestrians in nyc are assertive!

Quoted message said:

* Did you try riding in NYC on a quiet weekend morning, or a crowded weekday
rush-hour? (how does that compare with the day and time you chose to ride
across Paris)

nowhwere near as nice. nyc neighborhood architecture simply
can't rival that of most european cities. their cities are so
much more livable.

i never felt really threatened in nyc, but didn't spend much time
in harlem or bed-stuy, the ghettos then, before the south bronx
had deteriorated so badly. there were, however, neighborhoods
where i simply got the gut feeling that it wasn't a good place to
be, and i got out of them quickly.

Quoted message said:

* Did you experience the excitement and energy of the greatest city in North
America? (or did you just manage to cycle "across" it like with Paris) How
many days did you actually stay? Did you ride on Broadway and Wall Street?
across the Brooklyn Bridge? What neighborhoods did you visit? etc.

i'm not going to belabor it, but i worked in the east village and
in the garment district for several weeks as a temp. i spent
time in the upper east side, the lower east side including the
east village, greenwich village, and central park west. i spent
a lot of time in museums, galleries, theaters, and concerts.

i now know that i can see art, artifacts, and performances just
as good or better (and a lot cheaper!) in many other places.
being a small town boy raised on the edge of wilderness, i knew
that such a manic place full of so damn many rude & pushy people
was not the place for me. even most of the west coast was too
urban for my taste, so i came home to alaska.

cities are great places to visit for some cultural things, but i
wouldn't want to live in them. and there are many cities that
offer more and better things than new york. sorry.

Quoted message said:

What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning? What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop? to
the southern section of the West Side Greenway?

almost anywhere in paris, but your viewpoint is like that saul
steinberg new yorker cartoon cover that shows everything on
manhattan very large, the distant shore of new jersey as small,
and "the coast" as a tiny sliver in the far, far distance. you
are so convinced that where you live is the only place in the
world. such provincialism!

i live in a scenic small town. ( see www.juneaphotos.com ) jean
shepherd was here with a crew from pbs, and i took him on a hike
in the mountains right behind town. his comment was that mother
nature had no taste, it was overdone, just toooo pretty.

if i wanted to be in a scenic urban area, i'd pick edinburgh over
new york any day. in the US, i'd pick portland or san francisco.

Chuck Anderson wrote

Quoted message said:

In the US there are many who ... flip you the finger,
yell at you to get off the road

That may fit many regions and cities of the U.S., but riding and skating in
New York City, it's hard to remember a time when that's happened to me. Sure
I've stories about that kinda stuff in other regions of the U.S. like Texas.
Out in the suburbs of NYC on busy roads sometimes Yes; but No on the many
quieter residential streets. I find the frequency of insults is higher in
more rural areas like 1.5 hours out from NYC, maybe like one irritated horn
honk or yell per 24 hours of riding. I usually wave and smile -- in America
everyone's entitled to express their opinion.

I suppose if I did something impolite like taking up a lane of traffic
riding on a major avenue during rush hour, I'd get some negative gestures --
that's why I'd use the NYC Cycling Map and ride on the avenues that had bike
lanes during rush hour. In some places the bike lane would be blocked by
double-parked cars and would go too close to opening car doors, so sometimes
I would actually ride near the bike lane, rather than literally in the
bike lane.

In those cases my experience is that most NYC drivers understand that you
gotta do what you gotta do, to deal with what you encounter on the streets.
Because that's what they're doing themselves -- just trying to get somewhere
somehow using the streets. A bicyclist riding predictably and politely is
one of the smaller obstacles and hazards for them.

Whatever "hostility" some NYC drivers may feel is fundamentally not against
bicyclists -- it's against anything that's in front of them on the street.
Most New Yorkers are too busy to take the time to insult bicyclists.

Ken

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967.

Thanks for sharing details about your experience. But New York City has
changed in the 37 years since then.

I remember twenty years ago after my first visit to London and Paris, coming
back and being stunned by how inferior New York felt. Turns out there where
other people who also felt that -- people with the money and power to do
something about it. And they did do something. Ten years later things were
already better, and now after twenty years of change there are
bicyclist/skaters like me who are openly enthusiastic about New York City.

Quoted message said:

san francisco has public transport that is far better than nyc

I yield to SF, and now claim NYC rather as in the top two "most Euro" big
cities in the U.S. Anyway the spread and density of the multiple train
systems in the metropolitan NYC area is great for bicycling. It allows me to
set up fun one-way bike/skate tours between different train stations, or get
access far out to beautiful rural loops. Then there's the ferry boats,
which enable city cycling adventures like
http://roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/r/verr_gwb/map
I notice that the photos for that tour show several fun -- and ridable --
public spaces that did not exist in 1967.

Quoted message said:

nyc neighborhood architecture simply can't rival that of most european

cities.

I happily agree that big European cities have a higher concentration of
obvious statues and old ornate facades than New York (though if you care
much about that sort of thing, NYC has plenty, if you get the right
guidebook for it).

But I focus more on the people and the riding and the skating.

The obvious thing that NYC lacks relative to some Euro cities is a
pedestrian zone with streets closed to cars. But that gets to my feeling
about Paris: It's great for pedestrian tourism, but New York has better
bicycle tours.

Quoted message said:

such provincialism! Have you ever been to europe?
it sure doesn't sound like you have.

Have you ever used http://groups.google.com to search the newsgroup
archives? You could try doing a search of my name together with various
western and northern European countries in the archives of these newsgroups:
rec.bicycles.rides, rec.sport.skating.inline, rec.skiing.nordic

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

i live in a scenic small town.

I do not.
I really _like_ being around big cities. Not for the restaurants or museums
or statues. I like them for their well-paved streets and sidewalks --
varied and exciting and fun to glide on. And for their energetic people --
walkers, car drivers, bicyclists. And their buildings and parks and bridges
and trains -- varied and exciting.

Ken
_____________________________________
Dennis P. Harris wrote

Quoted message said:

Ken Roberts said:

Dennis wrote

Quoted message said:

I felt safer cycling across Paris ... than I ever have in any major

urban

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

area in the US.

* Have you actually ridden in New York City specifically? (I think NYC

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the most European of the big U.S. cities, notably in regard to its

public

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

transportation network)

yes. i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967. i brought a bike
with me and it was my major transportation unless i was going off
manhattan. the one saving grace of having a bike was that even
then midtown was gridlocked several times a week at mid-day.

and san francisco has public transport that is far better than
nyc, and a city that is far more european in feel. have you ever
been to europe? it sure doesn't sound like you have.

Quoted message said:

* Did you actually use the New York City Cycling Map? (instead of like

most

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

long-distance touring cyclists, just "winging it" and not bothering to

check

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ahead for local bicycling resources)

there was no such thing in 1967.

Quoted message said:

* Did you know and use assertive "vehicular" riding strategies in NYC?
(instead of practicing traffic-avoidance like mentioned in Paris)

of course. even the pedestrians in nyc are assertive!

Quoted message said:

* Did you try riding in NYC on a quiet weekend morning, or a crowded

weekday

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rush-hour? (how does that compare with the day and time you chose to

ride

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

across Paris)

nowhwere near as nice. nyc neighborhood architecture simply
can't rival that of most european cities. their cities are so
much more livable.

i never felt really threatened in nyc, but didn't spend much time
in harlem or bed-stuy, the ghettos then, before the south bronx
had deteriorated so badly. there were, however, neighborhoods
where i simply got the gut feeling that it wasn't a good place to
be, and i got out of them quickly.

Quoted message said:

* Did you experience the excitement and energy of the greatest city in

North

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

America? (or did you just manage to cycle "across" it like with Paris)

How

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

many days did you actually stay? Did you ride on Broadway and Wall

Street?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

across the Brooklyn Bridge? What neighborhoods did you visit? etc.

i'm not going to belabor it, but i worked in the east village and
in the garment district for several weeks as a temp. i spent
time in the upper east side, the lower east side including the
east village, greenwich village, and central park west. i spent
a lot of time in museums, galleries, theaters, and concerts.

i now know that i can see art, artifacts, and performances just
as good or better (and a lot cheaper!) in many other places.
being a small town boy raised on the edge of wilderness, i knew
that such a manic place full of so damn many rude & pushy people
was not the place for me. even most of the west coast was too
urban for my taste, so i came home to alaska.

cities are great places to visit for some cultural things, but i
wouldn't want to live in them. and there are many cities that
offer more and better things than new york. sorry.

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What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding

the

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south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning? What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop?

to

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the southern section of the West Side Greenway?

almost anywhere in paris, but your viewpoint is like that saul
steinberg new yorker cartoon cover that shows everything on
manhattan very large, the distant shore of new jersey as small,
and "the coast" as a tiny sliver in the far, far distance. you
are so convinced that where you live is the only place in the
world. such provincialism!

i live in a scenic small town. ( see www.juneaphotos.com ) jean
shepherd was here with a crew from pbs, and i took him on a hike
in the mountains right behind town. his comment was that mother
nature had no taste, it was overdone, just toooo pretty.

if i wanted to be in a scenic urban area, i'd pick edinburgh over
new york any day. in the US, i'd pick portland or san francisco.

Jimi wrote

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I would never try to bike in the streets of Rome
(that wouldn't be dangerous, but plain suicidal).

I once thought that bicycling in southern Manhattan must be dangerous. My
bicycle was in my grad student office in northern Manhatttan, and I was
comfortable riding on the local neighborhood streets around there, and I
enjoyed the Central Park loop during lunch hour. But never below 72nd
Street, which I knew from walking visits were full of heavy traffic and
aggressive drivers -- obviously dangerous.

Years later one Saturday morning, Sharon and Tony and I dared to ride our
bikes on south below 72nd. What happened to us on those dangerous streets
was Nothing. The traffic lanes were mostly empty -- I guess all the car
drivers had gone back home to New Jersey. We had a fun. We rode on Fifth
Avenue and Broadway, we visited the "arc de triomphe" of Washington Square
and Wall Street. Rode out to the middle of the Brooklyn Bridge and back. Put
our bikes on the Staten Island Ferry.

Why had we been scared for so long? Now I look forward to opportunities to
ride and skate in southern Manhattan, especially on weekends.

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And New York either, where, I'll stick to Greenways.

Sounds like a good plan for you, if you don't have the skills and
experienced judgment for riding on roads and streets.

But I've sometimes found myself trying new things in new places.

Like four years ago I thought that riding a bicycle at night was dangerous
and "suicidal".

Then I was in Parma in Italy, and I saw that lots of people were out riding
their bicycles on the streets at night. So I got out there myself on my
bicycle. (When in Parma, do as the Parmans?) What happened to me was
Nothing. Except that it was lots of fun riding around the city at night.

I took that lesson home with me, and skated on some major streets of
Manhattan at night. (Actually the streets I was on were not really dark --
there's many light sources).

Jimi wrote

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I have nothing against New Yorkers, or New Yorkers driving a car ...

Yes, you were clear about that -- it was not you but the guidebook. (but I
like how you spice it up with words like "killed" and "suicidal"😉

Don't worry -- I've heard lots worse about bicycling in New York City from
ignorant Americans.

Ken

I have ridden in: Seattle, Boston, San Francisco, Denver, Philly, ... etc.

They all are bad. But, at least the western cities seem to expect to see a
bicyclist.

I absolutely hate riding on bike paths. There is nothing more irritating
than someone riding by me with their rental bike and rental helmet ( helmet
tied to handlebars ).

I have been to NY many times, I've seen many cyclists.

They must know something.

"Chuck Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Jimi said:

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

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>would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
>dangerous, but plain suicidal).
>
>
Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cycling_the_Streets_of_Rome.html

I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!
And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?

I've only been in NYC once, many years ago, driving a rental car (it was
fierce, but I soon learned to get behind taxis and follow them for as long
as they went the direction I wanted to go - or sometimes a little further)

I've never ridden there. I live in the Rocky Mountains, and NYC seems like
another country to me (and is as far away). The only major US city I've
ridden in was San Francisco, and that was quite pleasant - no problems
(except for some of the extreme hills). I consider San Francisco the
cleanest and safest major city I know of in the US, ... by far. Reminds me
of the feel of the European cities I've ridden in. (I grew up near
Chicago, but never rode in the city.)

I have ridden in Athens, a very little bit in Naples (from Pompei to the
Naples train station), Rome, Vienna, and across London and back - twice
(Victoria station to Euston station, back to Victoria and once again to
Euston station). That that was a little exciting and strange - my first
time in left side driving and roundabouts - with lots of traffic, but I
still managed to enjoy myself - even took pictures while riding past
Parliament.

My impression (as I mention in my Rome journal) is that European cities
are more friendly to cyclists - more aware of them and their right to be
there. In the US there are many who would like to run you off the road.
They flip you the finger, yell at you to get off the road, and swear at
you. It's unnerving.

On the contrary, I never saw *any* hostility in the European cities I
mentioned above. And I felt quite welcome on the streets of Rome.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

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What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning?

Is this route on the upper or lower span of the GWB? I live in bergen county
NJ and was looking to take a ride over the bridge into NYC.

What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop? to

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the southern section of the West Side Greenway?