Re: Kelley / Gonzales Cancer Treatment fraud

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well it is accepted in science that enzymes are absorbed intact orally..

See :-
Castell, J.V., G. Friedrich, C.S. Kuhn, G.E. Poppe. 1997.
Intestinal absorption of undegraded proteins in men: presence of bromelain
in plasma after oral intake. Am J Physiol 273(1 Pt. 1):G139-146
http://www.mucos.cz/eng/far_mech/drbobat.htm

The above, like the pig abstract, demonstrate that if proteins are small
enough they can be absorped, apparently at least the one above falls into
that category. Being able to generalize that example to all enzymes is
dubious and not yet shown.

So do you expect me to post a reference showing every one of the thousands
of pancreatic enzymes that are absorbed?

Quoted message said:

In the current question is that of those of the pancreas, and by
definition any others not included above. The beauty
of the pig abstract was that their pancreas was removed so any possible
level in the blood after oral intake of enzymes produced by it would have
to be external.

Quoted message said:

In the specific instance of enzymes of the pancreas, on
which the cancer theory depends, it has been demonstrated they are not
absorbed.

Why do you say they are not absorbed, I showed clearly a study which showed
trypsin was absorbed.
I suggest posting an article on sci.med and ask are enzymes absorbed, you
will quickly get an answer yes!

Quoted message said:

For that reason the mice abstract shows only that intake of
enzmes from the pancreas by water seemed to have an effect on the course
of the disease while not showing those enzymes showing up in the blood.

So you admit they have an anti cancer effect.

Quoted message said:

They were human cancer cells transplanted in the mice, it is just as valid
a theory that the enzymes in the gut caused some differences in hormones
which affected the course of the disease in a context of cell rejection.

<above>

Quoted message said:

Btw, the above abstract still needs to exclude other possible reasons that
blood levels of the enzyme rose in correlation with the dose, apart from
the size issue which relates to all proteins. Those same enzymes are
produced by the body all the time, the normal source of them and not food.
Again, we must exclude the possibility that presence of isolated enzymes
in the gut does not cause an increase of internal production.

This is also irrelevant, if you drink orange juice which isn't absorbed, and
your body synthesises orange juice in the blood. you are talking about a
moot point.
Orange juice is orange juice.

Quoted message said:

The only support this cancer treatment will get is if it shows promise in
the
current trial, and how that came to be is an intresting story in itself.

Metabolic theory has been used in quack clinics for years now and in non
mainstream doctors practices..

Anth

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/15/05.html
Anth

"So do you expect me to post a reference showing every one of the
thousands
of pancreatic enzymes that are absorbed?"

No, just that enzymes in general are absorbed in a routine manner and that
it is accepted as a concensus conclusion based on research to the same
broad degree. Thus far I have seen only fragments that can possibily have
some merit and could be suggestive of that.

"So you admit they have an anti cancer effect."

I admit reading the abstract and it said a change in the course of cancer
was changed by ingesting proteins, which effect on the course was not
demonstrated to have been the reason and didn't exclude other possible
answers. It is one of the shards of suggestive bits that have been
offered, nothing yet to call the nobel folk about, but enough to get into
a journal as it was.

"This is also irrelevant, if you drink orange juice which isn't absorbed,
and
your body synthesises orange juice in the blood. you are talking about a
moot point.
Orange juice is orange juice."

Not at all, the entire cancer theory demands direct action at the tumor
site and on each cell of it. Now if internally generated enzymes have
some benefit from how the body reacts to those in the gut, fine, but the
theory is toast. If the orange juice was drunk and the cancer was
affected do we ascribe it to the juice attacking the tumor? Most
important, do we say it was the juice in the blood without showing it
appeared there?

"Metabolic theory has been used in quack clinics for years now and in non
mainstream doctors practices.."

Yes, along with any number of undemonstrated, to scientific standards of
proof, scores of theories and practices.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"So do you expect me to post a reference showing every one of the
thousands
of pancreatic enzymes that are absorbed?"

No, just that enzymes in general are absorbed in a routine manner and that
it is accepted as a concensus conclusion based on research to the same
broad degree. Thus far I have seen only fragments that can possibily have
some merit and could be suggestive of that.

Well if you think about it bromolain not in plasma (the body doesn't make
it - it's a pineapple enzyme)
Then they find it in the plasma after ingestion. That's proof it is
absorbed. It is an enzyme. That soundly refutes the hypothesis enzymes are
not absorbed.
Now onto trypsin, you injest pancreatic enzymes, the levels of trypsin
increase in your blood. (as demonstrated by the mugos link study)
This doesn't harm the trophoblast theory, the levels of blood trypsin
increase with oral dosage in a predictable way.

Quoted message said:

"So you admit they have an anti cancer effect."

I admit reading the abstract and it said a change in the course of cancer
was changed by ingesting proteins, which effect on the course was not
demonstrated to have been the reason and didn't exclude other possible
answers.

Other possible answer like what?
How do you explain other experiments which show 100% cures in animal models
when the enzymes are injected into and around the tumour mass without
necrosis of the surrounding skin and tissue?
(Trypsin will eat skin muscle etc)

Quoted message said:

It is one of the shards of suggestive bits that have been offered, nothing
yet to call the nobel folk about, but enough to get into
a journal as it was.

Well we'll see when the results come out in about 5 years time.

Quoted message said:

"This is also irrelevant, if you drink orange juice which isn't absorbed,
and
your body synthesises orange juice in the blood. you are talking about a
moot point.
Orange juice is orange juice."

Not at all, the entire cancer theory demands direct action at the tumor
site and on each cell of it.

The cancer theory is that you kill the trophoblasts - the ones that produce
the tumour.
Recently stem cells from the bone have been shown to produce cancers in the
stomach, that supports the theory.

Quoted message said:

Now if internally generated enzymes have some benefit from how the body
reacts to those in the gut, fine, but the
theory is toast. If the orange juice was drunk and the cancer was
affected do we ascribe it to the juice attacking the tumor?

It shows that the juice has anti tumour action.

Quoted message said:

Most important, do we say it was the juice in the blood without showing
it
appeared there?

"Metabolic theory has been used in quack clinics for years now and in non
mainstream doctors practices.."

Yes, along with any number of undemonstrated, to scientific standards of
proof, scores of theories and practices.

Well if your beef is about it being not proven I agree, but if your beef is
about it being impossible and that the theory is refuted because of one
flawed pig study I disagree.
Anth

http://chetday.com/enzymescancer.htm
For years opponents of alternative medicine have argued that enzymes taken
by mouth would be broken down in the stomach and inactivated before being
able to do much good at all. This point of view was thoroughly refuted in
2002 when three physiologists at the University of California-San Francisco
showed that digestive enzymes can be absorbed into blood, reabsorbed by the
pancreas, and reutilized, instead of being reduced to their constituent
amino acids in the intestines. This is called an enteropancreatic
circulation of digestive enzymes (Rothman 2002).
Rothman S, Liebow C, Isenman L. Conservation of digestive enzymes. Physiol
Rev. 2002 Jan;82(1):1-18. Review.
Anth

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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