Frame types - 7005 etc.

"Paul Rose" said
SNIP

Quoted message said:

p.s. aren't there a lot of bikes out there to choose from? I'll be lucky
to
get a short list before Christmas at this rate ;o)

Newbie / Returner here too. As for the different grades etc, i have no idea
just know that the bikes im considering are both the 7005 grade and are
lighter than most of the other steel bikes. Oh, and my shortlist is of only
2 :-)
--
Donegal Paul - On the mend
Maico Letta 247cc - We have the technology.
Zundapp Bella r203 - Watch out for ze Germans!
Bajaj Chetak 125 - Wannabe Vespa
Lambretta Li186 - stripped.
Vespa T5 Millenium - intact
www.thepilgrimssc.co.uk

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative newbie
in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a 6061
frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other 'types'
?

6000 needs a more complicated heat treatment than 7000. But that is
something the framefactory can worry about. From both materials you can
make nice frames... or perfect dogs.

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative newbie
in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a 6061
frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other 'types'
?

Also, the Specialized frames are described as 'A1 Premium Aluminium. What is
that all about? Is it their own brand or something? If so, how does it
compare to the 6061 / 7005 etc?

Many things factor together to make a good bike. One of these is frame
material, but it is by no means the only point. As for the difference
between 6061 & 7005 (Or any others for that matter)...
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=310 may prove interesting
reading, if not actually enlightening.

Also, if you look at www.framebuilding.com, in the section on Columbus
tubing you can find details of their different alloys of aluminium.

Read reviews and ride bikes. 'tis the only way to find out.

Jon

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative newbie
in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a 6061
frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other 'types'
?

It might have been one of my posts that you read. I believe as a
general rule 6061 is better than 7005. However the comparision is made
more complicated by lots of other factors. As a general rule though
7005 is the cheap option with regard frames even though the material
itself is more expensive than 6061. Its just the manufacturing process
for 6061 is more complicated and costly. The very cheapest nastiest
aluminium bikes are always 7005 though. Merida seem to make quite
reasonable 7005 frames but I wouldn't say generally they were as good
as Giant's 6061 frames. As a general rule a company that has both 7005
and 6061 framed bikes in its portfolio of products will have the 7005
models at the bottom end and 6061 higher up.

Quoted message said:

Also, the Specialized frames are described as 'A1 Premium Aluminium. What is
that all about? Is it their own brand or something? If so, how does it
compare to the 6061 / 7005 etc?

Specialized do buy frames from the very cheap taiwanese producers like
idealbike so I bet they do have some fairly low end 7005 frames in
their range but maybe A1 premium aluminium is their step up quality
product. The specialized business model is one of making top notch
bikes in the usa but making their real money from low cost imported
taiwanese bikes with a huge market and this is used to subsidise their
loss making or very low profit american operation. However its the
prestige of their top end products that sells their whole range of
bikes. Sadly the uk and europe seem to be doing most of the
subsidising too. If you compare the uk price to the usa price and
there is more than 40% difference in price then that company is
ripping off uk consumers.

Quoted message said:

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative

newbie

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a

6061

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other

'types'

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

?

Hi All

Thanks to everyone who replied. Much appreciated. The url's posted were also
very helpful, thanks. I'm slowly getting enough info together which,
hopefully, will allow me to make a reasonably educated decision on which
bikes to short list ;o)

--
Regards, Paul (R)
My Lake District walking site:
www.lakelandwalker.co.uk

"Martin Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:10:04 GMT, "Paul Rose"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
snipped<

Hi Martin,

Yes, it was your thread that I read with interest.

Quoted message said:

As a general rule a company that has both 7005 and 6061 framed bikes in

its portfolio of products will have the 7005<

Quoted message said:

models at the bottom end and 6061 higher up.<

I have noticed that whilst looking on the web and in the monthly mags.

Quoted message said:

Specialized do buy frames from the very cheap taiwanese producers like

idealbike so I bet they do have some fairly low >end 7005 frames in their
range but maybe A1 premium aluminium is their step up quality product.<

Because I am looking at possibly purchasing a Specialized bike, I was
interested in finding out how the A1 Premium Aluminium frame compared to
the 6061 and 7005 frames (if different). I'll need to do a little more
research me thinks ;o)

Quoted message said:

The specialized business model is one of making top notch bikes in the usa

but making their real money from low cost >imported taiwanese bikes with a
huge market and this is used to subsidise their loss making or very low
profit american >operation.<

That's an interesting point and worth bearing in mind. However, I suppose at
the end of the day, as long as the bike is well made and of a decent quality
for the money, then I personally, are not too bothered where the bike was
made/put together, but I take your point.

Quoted message said:

If you compare the uk price to the usa price and there is more than 40%

difference in price then that company is ripping off >uk consumers.<

Not alone there then ;o) Cars, clothing etc., etc.

--
Regards, Paul (R)
My Lake District walking site:
www.lakelandwalker.co.uk

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative newbie
in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a 6061
frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other 'types'
?

Also, the Specialized frames are described as 'A1 Premium Aluminium. What is
that all about? Is it their own brand or something? If so, how does it
compare to the 6061 / 7005 etc?

Thanks guys and gals for any advice that may increase my (limited!)
knowledge ;o)

6061, or 6061-T6, is an aerospace alloy and was simply what happened to
be available at the time Cannondale and GT started making alu frames.
My understanding is that alloys that don't require post-weld heat
treatment, such as 7005, aren't inferior (7005 is in fact stronger than
6061 and allows thinner tubes) but are obviously cheaper to build with
because you can miss out a whole stage in the mnufacturing process. You
can have this type of frame repaired, e.g. by welding a crack back together.

6061 is supposed to be a little more resistant to fatigue, which may be
important if you ride your bike every day for decades and/or take a lot
of big hits off-road.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Paul Rose said:

Hi All

As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I'm a relative newbie
in the process of trying to increase my knowledge of mountain bikes in
general, before gathering (hopefully!) a short list of possible bikes to
purchase.

Reading some of the posts on here, I believe there are different
types/quality of aluminium frame? Would I be right in assuming that a 6061
frame is a better 'quailty' frame than a 7005 ? (I think I've got that
right!). These seem to be the most popular types I've come across whilst
researching the different makes of bikes out there. Are there other 'types'
?

Also, the Specialized frames are described as 'A1 Premium Aluminium. What is
that all about? Is it their own brand or something? If so, how does it
compare to the 6061 / 7005 etc?

Thanks guys and gals for any advice that may increase my (limited!)
knowledge ;o)

6061, or 6061-T6, is an aerospace alloy and was simply what happened to
be available at the time Cannondale and GT started making alu frames.
My understanding is that alloys that don't require post-weld heat
treatment, such as 7005, aren't inferior (7005 is in fact stronger than
6061 and allows thinner tubes) but are obviously cheaper to build with
because you can miss out a whole stage in the mnufacturing process. You
can have this type of frame repaired, e.g. by welding a crack back together.

6061 is supposed to be a little more resistant to fatigue, which may be
important if you ride your bike every day for decades and/or take a lot
of big hits off-road.

I believe as you say 7005 is stronger and is actually more expensive I
believe as a raw material. However I think the point is that 7005 (not
T6) is a mixture of heat strengthened (at the welds) and not heat
strengthened which in itself can be the cause of cracking. Not only
that but 7005 is more difficult to weld. Not only that it is the worse
for the memory effect and remembers every impact and abuse and you end
up with a frame that is much more likely to fail compared to 6061
given enough abuse or time or both. Which is why it seems to be the
frame type manufacturers are most resistant to giving long guarantees
on 7005. Thats why 6061 frames are priced higher and are placed higher
up in a manufacturers range who do both. I'm not saying 7005 frames
are bad or should be avoided but I think it should be made clear that
as a general rule which is obviously dependant on actual frame design
and the exact material used 6061 will generally be better. However
perhaps there is another debate to be had with regards 7005-T6
compared to 6061.

In the interests of fairness I can see from a company viewpoint like
Giant who wish to manufacture as quickly and efficiently as possible
there is the benefit that a 6061 frame can be manufactured quickly,
assembled, sold and ridden as soon as possible where as 7005 does have
a delay factor.

This is what Giant have to say though;

"Giant concentrates on 6000 series production due to its superior
fabrication, performance and testing characteristics. 6000 series
aluminum consists of Al + Mg + Si (Aluminum + Magnesium + Silicon).
Containing silicon and magnesium in proportions necessary to form
magnesium silicide, 6000 series features good formability,
weldability, machine-ability and corrosion resistance and strength,
which makes it an ideal material for bicycle frames."

Giant do make low cost 7005 frames though I think now in mainland
china in fairly low tech factories. Possibly factories that have been
acquired rather than built from the ground up. You don't normally see
these bikes sold over here as Giant try to maintain a very prestigious
high quality brand image in europe and america. They are low cost
bikes for less well off regions. Even Giant's state of the art
aluminium Aluxx and Aluxx SL are based on 6000 series aluminium.

I don't think theres any doubt that Giant and Cannondale are the two
best and most advanced bike builders in the world and neither
recommends or supports 7005.

Martin Wilson said:

I don't think theres any doubt that Giant and Cannondale are the two
best and most advanced bike builders in the world and neither
recommends or supports 7005.

Interestingly though, Columbus, not renowned for making [censored] tubing,
make all their aluminium tube from a 7000 series alloy. Given that they
seem to have expanded the range I'd suspect there's a market for the
stuff (High-end, double and triple butted tubes).

Jon

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:30:09 +0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk said:

Martin Wilson said:

I don't think theres any doubt that Giant and Cannondale are the two
best and most advanced bike builders in the world and neither
recommends or supports 7005.

Interestingly though, Columbus, not renowned for making [censored] tubing,
make all their aluminium tube from a 7000 series alloy. Given that they
seem to have expanded the range I'd suspect there's a market for the
stuff (High-end, double and triple butted tubes).

Jon

How much Columbus 7005 tubing is used for mountain bike frames though
where it might get some abuse? Isn't it more a road bike only material
where its more brittle and shock damaged structure is less important
compared to overall strength? Wouldn't most companies choose a 6061
frame for a mountain bike in their range rather than columbus 7005?

Besides surely the opinion of actual bike manufacturers is at least as
important as companies that provide the building block materials. As
bike manufacturers are closer to the feedback of actual owners/users.
Giant on their own make at least ten times as many frames as the whole
of the usa's output put together. They probably make in the region of
5-6 million bicycles a year. There are probably more rebranded Giant
frames with usa brands on than usa made frames if you exclude
cannondale. They are also the most advanced mass market builders of
bikes with the most advanced factories and the largest R&D budget on
the planet.

Remember 7005 is the low tech solution for small scale builders of
aluminium frames and requires less investment than 6000 series
aluminium. So its going to be the choice for smaller companies anyway
whether its better or worse.

Martin Wilson said:

How much Columbus 7005 tubing is used for mountain bike frames though
where it might get some abuse? Isn't it more a road bike only material
where its more brittle and shock damaged structure is less important
compared to overall strength? Wouldn't most companies choose a 6061
frame for a mountain bike in their range rather than columbus 7005?

I don't know. But Columbus certainly market the tube sets as road or MTB
so it would imply that they are confident in the ability of the tube.
Bear in mind that a stiff frame will transfer shock through the tube
into the rider without bending (and thus fatiguing) the tubes. This is
apparently the source of the "Aluminium bikes are a harsher ride" story.
The stiffer frames which will reduce the fatiguing of the tube make for
a harsh ride, but this is not a property of the underlying material.
Bear in mind also that at the top end (Which is where a lot of the
Columbus tubesets are pitched), the bike does not need to last more than
a season (Or possibly even, one race!).

Quoted message said:

Besides surely the opinion of actual bike manufacturers is at least as
important as companies that provide the building block materials.

But Columbus would be unlikely to make products that they cannot sell.
If they supply tube to a manufacturer then the range of tube that they
sell will reflect the range desired by the manufacturer. This is not a
"made-to-measure" material. These tubes are stocked by a framebuilding
supplier so clearly the market does exist.

Quoted message said:

As
bike manufacturers are closer to the feedback of actual owners/users.
Giant on their own make at least ten times as many frames as the whole
of the usa's output put together. They probably make in the region of
5-6 million bicycles a year. There are probably more rebranded Giant
frames with usa brands on than usa made frames if you exclude
cannondale. They are also the most advanced mass market builders of
bikes with the most advanced factories and the largest R&D budget on
the planet.

Remember 7005 is the low tech solution for small scale builders of
aluminium frames and requires less investment than 6000 series
aluminium. So its going to be the choice for smaller companies anyway
whether its better or worse.

But without an ability to sell these bikes, the tubing wouldn't be used.
I suspect we're bordering on Peter Clinch's old differentiation between
"good" and "good enough". 6000 series (Or some variants thereof) may
well be a better material on paper, but the 7000 series (Or some
variants thereof) may well be good enough.

Jon